For all you Tokarev fans; the latest American Rifleman issue features a great article on the Chinese Models 213, 51, and 54 ( like mine pictured here)

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John

Here's my 1939 Russian Tokarev with it's original holster and two matching numbered magazines.

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	1939 Soviet Tokarev w two matching mags 003.jpg (158.3 KB, 98 views)
	1939 Soviet Tokarev w two matching mags 005.jpg (165.2 KB, 93 views)
	1939 Soviet Tokarev w two matching mags 011.JPG (176.2 KB, 82 views)

No safety, very nice.

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Release the Kraken

I did not read it word for word. How is accuracy? Bob

I was surprised to learn this week on another board that the Chinese did not make many of the Type 59 Makarovs and that the Tokarev probably remained in service there until replaced by the current pistol, which we almost never see.


Can someone post pics of that new one, available in 9mm Luger or a special 5.8mm ctg., similar to the FN 5.7mm?


That gun looks to be basically a Browning type, with a safety on the frame.


How well does the Tokarev perform in expert hands? I know the ctg. is capable of penetrating many police vests.


Do any US ammo makers provide the 7.62mm ammo, especially in JHP form? That might be a real killer on animals like foxes, bobcats, and coyotes.

Bob: Reliable,very accurate, robust ( typical soviet bloc fire arms), and a hoot to shoot; In low light it gets plenty of attention at the range--big BOOM and two foot flame BTW, Tokarev ammo is reasonably priced and easy to find

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John

It's available from Wolf and PPU (Prvi Partizan).

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Release the Kraken

Wolf is Russian and the other is Serbian. I asked about US ammo companies. I trust them more.


Are Wolf cases steel or brass? Are they and the Serbian stuff Boxer primed? Noncorrosive?


What about the hollowpoints I asked about? Anyone shot anything living, like a big coon or a coyote with HP ammo in this caliber?


Steve, thanks for replying. I just want more info than you posted.

That was a good article. I just flip through most issues and then throw the magazine on the shelf. When I found the article on the Tokarev I read the whole thing word for word. It's very uncommon for me to find anything to read in AR. My favorite magazine is American Handgunner. Always find something I want to read in that one.

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Dr. B

I bought one of the Rumanian or Russian (I think) Tokerev's a few years ago. Very inexpensive at that time; around $120 as I recall. Shot some eastern-block ammo (7.62 x 25) and neglected to clean it for about 2-weeks; wound up with a frosted barrel.

Anyone know of available 9mm conversion bbls' and mags?

At one time, Winchester sold a 7.62 Tok round, although I think it was repackaged imported ammo from one of the European makers. I don't know if that is still available. I have seen considerable amounts of Combloc milsurp ammo offered at gun shows, even saw a full case of it not too long ago. It's pretty much the same as 7.62 Mauser ammo, but I think most believe that the 7.62 Mauser is a little less powerful than the Tok ammo. And it's much more difficult to find. There are not many handguns which I have not fired at one time or another, and the Tokarev is one of them. I would like to get a 7.62 Tok barrel for a Colt M1911 (to work with a 9mm or .38 Super slide), but have never seen one.

My cursory search did not turn up any Remchester in 7.62x25 JHP.

Fear not using PPU, I've shot tons of it in all sorts of calibers. PPU is non-corrosive in all the calibers I have used. Check it out here. Prvi Partizan Ammunition

Wolf Gold is non-corrosive and Boxer primed. Wolf, 7.62 Tokarev, HP, 85 Grain, 50 Rounds - 140234, 7.62x25 Tok. Ammo at Sportsman's Guide

To be honest, I prefer shooting European ammo out of European guns. SAAMI often specifies weak sauce compared with CIP (the European standard) when it comes to non-US standard calibers. It's why many European 9 mm pistols often choke on US 115 gr practice ammo, the gun was designed to take NATO spec 9 mm (124 gr @ ~1200 fps) from the git-go. I also wonder if the 45 ACP Mafia don't want us to have proper 9 mm ammo, but that's a conspiracy theory for another day.

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Release the Kraken

John:

I'm trying to find pics of my Russian and Chinese Tokarevs, I will post them soon. Both are pretty rough, the Chinese is a bring back from Vietnam, and we believe that the Russian was a bring back from an earlier conflict, possibly even WWII, the elderly gentleman who it came from was a veteran of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam ... A career soldier. His family sold it to one of my collector buddies, and I ended up with it. Both are unmolested with no government mandated "safeties", or import stamps.

I also have a Polish, and a Romanian Tokarev, of more recent import, which have the government mandated mutilation safety modification, and crude import marks. What a shame... But they still shoot well.

PPU ammunition is just fine, and I have also had good luck with Sellier and Bellot (sp) which is Czech. Both have brass boxer primed cartridge cases, which I have had luck in reloading in a number of calibers. I have not reloaded the 7.62x25 yet, but I save the casings anyway, as it is just a matter of time until I do.

I too was excited to find that article when I opened my AR yesterday. You are right, information on these interesting little gems is scarce.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Les: great pistols and prices still very affordable; except for those "bring backs" you have ( ya gotta post photos). Collectors of Soviet Bloc firearms are finally taking notice; any Tok without import markings and no import safety ( the exception being the Yugo Model 57 with the factory safety)are starting to rise in price. An original Soviet TT33 with holster ca. 1941 recently sold on an auction site for $1400.00, and had 28 bids.

Best wishes, John

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John

Well, John, I found these old and not very good photos on a thumb drive... You can always tell my oldies, as I used to photo everything on an old army blanket!! Had to email them to myself, save on the iPad, and then upload to photo bucket...whew!

Anyway, as the article was about the Chinese Tokarevs, here is mine, again, not a very clear picture:



And here are the markings on the top of the slide:



Here is a shot of my Russian:



Here is an import marked Romanian, with the mandated, jury rigged "safety":



Here is my similarly mutilated Polish Tokarev:



Here's the last one, I can't believe I forgot that I had this one....a Yougoslav Model 57, which you spoke of...



Edit: I also have a Czech CZ 52, which shoots the Tok cartridge, but us a completely different beast!!

That's the crop, unless we start taking about Makarovs!!

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Really a nice group of Tokarevs That Polish, even with the safety, is a beauty

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John

They work fine and none corrosive. I don't see what the problem is. PPU also supplies the US military with 556. But anyways, I shoot PPU in 120 year old rifles with no probs.

Generally speaking I shoot thousands of rounds of Wolf/Bear/Tiger ammo along with PPU, Red Star, Hot shot and any other cheap E. European ammo. Literally thousands of thousands of rounds. Since 1998 I have had 5 problems. The fifth happened a month ago or so. Failure to extract. Knocked the case out and continued on!

Eastern European HP is junk. It shoots find but most of it is just a FMJ with a hole. They don't expand well at all. I have no experience with 7.62x25 HP but all their other HP essentially acts as FMJ so I don't see why this would be any different

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I had one of the Hugo M57's for several years. A fun gun to shoot. There was a dry spell for ammo for a few months, but most of the time I could find it. I did reload some ammo for it, but was never able to get good velocity and accuracy at the same time. It was always one or the other. By the way, it is a real Pain to reload.

Texas, I have to agree with Arik on this one. I too have shot thousands of rounds of Russian, as well as Chinese (back when it was plentiful and cheap) and other Eastern European ammo. A lot of it is Berdan primed,, steel cased, and I don't feel guilty if I throw the casings away. Between my two class III autos, and my buddy, who used to be a class III dealer, we went through many cases of both commercial and military surplus ammunition, with very few problems. I remember when the 5.45 x 39 first became available!! And rifles to shoot them in!! 7.62 x 39 as well!!! Very exciting times... And we took advantage of the vast proliferation of east block ammunition. Also agree about the HP... I bought a few cases of it just as shooter grade ammo, it is not really hunting grade.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Thanks!!! I'm afraid that I have been concentrating on my Smiths and Colts for the last few years, and my East Block treasures have been languishing in the depths of the safe!!! When the weather breaks a little, I may get them out for a little limbering up!!

Your Chinese is a real fine gun. Although mine looks pretty rough, it still functions fine, and I don't see getting rid of any in the foreseeable future.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Here's a Vietnam bring back. Type 54 from 1966. I have it's original holster plus one matching numbered magazine, and an original full box of Chinese 1966 head stamped ammo.
It was buried in a cache of weapons found by our side.

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	Vietnam type 54 Tokarev 007.jpg (173.7 KB, 62 views)
	Vietnam type 54 Tokarev 004.JPG (220.9 KB, 59 views)
	Vietnam type 54 Tokarev 009.JPG (277.1 KB, 65 views)
	Vietnam type 54 Tokarev 001.jpg (197.2 KB, 64 views)
	Vietnam type 54 Tokarev 008.JPG (194.6 KB, 59 views)

I don't have 7.62, but my T-54 would just need a barrel to change out. Mine is 9mm, and given the ammo situation, I'm fine with that.

Wolf (and Red Army) are very likely steel case, berdan primed.

I've shot PPU in many calibers. Brass, boxer primed, and good to go. I would prefer their FMJ to WWB or UMC.
PPU isn't to be mocked, they do wonderful things for a lot of us. They make 7.65 Argentine Mauser, and you can find it online for about the same price as Winchester 30/30 ($14-15 per box of 20). They make other obscure calibers, too.

I'm almost positive they make a HP Tok round. It would stand to reason, as the Serbians (Zastava) are still making new Tokarevs available to the US market.

I dug mine out of the "wood pile" and found that it's a Yugoslavian Zastava M57. Does anyone know if the Zastava M70 9mm barrel would be a drop-in? Alternately, would a T33 9mm barrel fit? Thanks -S2

You mean M57?

Yes barrels should be the same in either caliber however, may or may not need fitting. Sometimes else to think about. I'm not sure if the extractor are the same for both calibers. Years ago when Intertec, from Knoxville TN was importing mint Polish M48 Tokorevs I bought one. It worked flawlessly except that you couldn't pull the slide back and eject the round by hand. When fired it was fine though. Took it back to the store I bought it from and they sent it back to the importer. Got it back a few weeks later and found out it had a 9mm extractor installed. At least this is what I was told. After I got it back I never had a problem.

Man I miss the good day of 3 cent a round surplus 7.62x25. Anyone remember S. African Cheetah ammo?!?!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Here's my Vietnam bring back. My boss found it on the body of an NVA 2d Lt, killed in an Arc Light (B-52) strike in the Parrot's Beak area. I have the capture papers for it, too. I put them away for safe keeping; they're safe, all right. I haven't been able to find them for the past 25 years!

Around the 40's - 50's, the American ammo makers made HPs for the 7.63 Mauser cartridge. They didn't expand at all. Incidentely, I've fired thousands of rounds of 7.63 Mauser - 7.62 Tokarev, most if it handloads, and have no trouble at all. If you want expanding ammo, handload Speer or Hornady half jackets.


Be careful of the CZ 52 pistol! It has a hammer drop: if you push the safety up, it will drop the hammer. In many CZ 52s, mine included, it will also fire a round in the chamber.

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	IMG_1687.JPG (118.8 KB, 41 views)

Really nice treasure you have there. Do you suppose that surface rash is from blood ? Sort of has that look ?

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John

Wow ! Another nice "bring-back"

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John

I remember reading somewhere that the main use for pistols in the Red Army was for issue to noncoms and officers for shooting deserters. Apparently many soldiers were prone to throwing down their rifles and running when things got hot, and they needed a little encouragement to stay and fight.

Actually, the imprinted areas on my Vietnam pistol appear to be from contact with a canvas type material by the pattern left in spots.

Hey:

moosedog, Cyrano!!

I've been looking at our Chinese "Type 54"s, and their serial numbers, and comparing them with the article in the NRA magazine. All pretty darn close...all made in Arsenal 66, all made in 1966, which, according to the article had about 32,000 guns made.

Here are our numbers:

NRA example: 13007654 66 1966
My example: 13005317 66 1966
moosedog's: 13008396 66 1966
Cyrano's: 13017214 66 1966

I was looking through some of my reference material at my office today, and thinking about Arsenal 66. I found one source which identified it as Bei'an, which is one of the possibilities mentioned in the NRA article. But something is running around in the back of my head...weren't the Chinese commercial firearms imported under the name "Norinco" many years ago also marked "66"? It seems to me that the name "Norinco" was an acronym for something like "North China Industries Company" or something along those lines. I don't think that Norinco was the actual manufacturer of the arms they exported, but that they were made for them by Arsenal 66 (or according to some sources, 366). I know that I've read about this Arsenal and its location somewhere over the years, and sooner or later it will come back to me.

At any rate, our guns were all made in the same year, at the same factory, and close to the same time!! Remarkable, and after all these years, we are able to get together and speculate about their history. Only on this forum could something like that happen!!

Edit: found a little additional info...this from"Small Arms Review", in reference to AKs, but refers to Arsenal or "Factory" 66... Also, apparently known as Factory 366:

By the way, Bei'an is located in Heilongjiang Province.

Thought you guys might be have some info...apologies to the OP, the patient OLDSTER, AKA John... Don't mean to hijack your thread, but you and the American Rifleman have brought up some interesting points!!

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

I saw somewhere on the internet a photo of Tokarev HP's will open up to .40 caliber.

This article showed PPU HP's expanding to .45.
Is 7.62x25 Appropriate for Self-Defense? - AllOutdoor.com

Excellent article, surfgun!

I'll have to get a couple of boxes of that PPU JHP stuff!!!

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Les you have pointed out something I noticed last night about the close serial numbers three of you guys have.
I intended to add a picture of one I tried to buy.
S/N 110 01066 66 1964 for additional info.

I wrote out the text with the intent of adding a couple pics, and that process got completely flumoxed and wiped out my entire effort.
My picture posting procedure always seems "hit or miss", so much so I have become suspicious of those tumblers of Scotch.

Attached Images

	pewter .45 mmc sight Tokarev Romania bayonet 011.jpg (89.6 KB, 20 views)
	pewter .45 mmc sight Tokarev Romania bayonet 025.jpg (126.2 KB, 23 views)

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wanna do right-- not right now

I apologize to oldster for the drift, and appreciate his mention of the edition of A R.
Here of late I have tended to set them aside with out wading through all the politico angst. I often wish the mag was GUN content as in the old days; but I do understand and appreciate the fight N R A puts up, and donate as I am able.

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wanna do right-- not right now

Curious about the T-54 serial dating, I've read that on another forum somewhere.

I wonder- mine is a T-54, but has the safety and and came in a Norinco box from Sportarms. My serial number is in the same range... does this mean that it was possibly surplus and refurbished as a 9mm and shipped here, or is it commercial and much newer? Again, it isn't a 213, it has the deeper 7.62 magwell and I use standard Tok mags (and they work fine for 9mm, no worse than the wider mags in my Star B Super handle 9x19).

I read that article linked above, and as always, we get the caliber wars discussion brought into the comment section. One guy commented that a PPSH 41 would be good for home defense, another responded about the extra penetration risks. That seems like a valid concern, and yet I see some people wanting to use .556 for home defense... seems like straight-through would be way more of an issue with that.

No apology needed The more info that can be shared on this thread, the better Regards, John

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John

John:

One thing I learned last night about the Chinese examples was that if you add the first two numbers of the serial number to the number "53", that it will give you the year of manufacture. All of ours here have the year stamped anyway, but some that I have seen posted in other places did not have a separate year stamp, but you can use this formula to determine the year of manufacture. I am speculating that although these are called "Type 54", they were designed and approved in 1953. That part is just a surmise, but in all examples that I have seen, the formula works.

I know what you mean about the Scotch.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

All:

Still digging around on the Internet, and of course with the understanding that there is a lot of misinformation and disinformation out there. Saw a lot of photos of Chinese Tokarevs similar to ours, and some questionable info on just where Factory 66 is in China. Of course, we all know that the entire East Block adopted the use of Arsenal numbers to confound western intelligence agencies attempting to get a handle on where armaments and matériel were being produced....we see the same thing in Russia, and all of her allies, as well as N Korea, etc. so I suppose that it is not all that unusual that there is a shortage of information.

I distinctly recall, though reading, among other accounts, of a vist by an American gun writer, can't recall which one right now, but I know that I saved the article, and will eventually find it. Anyway, he was recounting how he had been invited to China to tour one of these state arms factories, which may have been making AKs or something, but also pistols, in order to write a story about how and where these guns were being made.

I know that we can't rely much on Wikipedia, but here is a clip from one of their write ups:

.

Edit: just found a link to an update of the original story by the American gun writer...my mind hasn't completely gone yet!!! Turns out it was Garry James, and the original story is reprised in this larger version of the original. It was not a story about the Norinco factory, though, but the Poly Tech factory, and they were making AKs, coincidently, one which I happen to still own, the Poly Tech milled receiver semi auto copy of the milled receiver Russian AK of the 1950s, but that is a story for another time. I think while we are looking at Chinese arms manufacturer, that you guys might find this first hand account by James pretty interesting, even though it's not about Tokarrevs.

Here's the link: Touring a Chinese AK47 Factory - Guns & Ammo

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Les, do you know if this applies to the T-54's (NOT 213's) sold in Norinco boxes by Sportarms back in the 90's?

Sorry that this is a repeat question, but I've always been a little uncertain about whether mine was specifically "made for commercial sale", or if Norinco just took some of their older surplus stock, "Americanized" it by slapping on a cheap safety after the fact, boxed it and sent it here for profit.

Scoobysnacker:

I don't know. But I did take a look at some of the ones for sale on auction sites, and from this unscientific and by-the-seat-of-your-pants "study", it seems that they continued their serial numbering regimen into the 21st century. I know that imports from China were cut off, but some of the guns I saw were evidently sent to Canada, where imports continued after our ban, although I'm not sure how long.

Anyway, one example was a Norinco marked 54 with a serial of 38001261, which would indicate a manufacture date of 1991. And there were others. If you want to share at least the first few numbers of your serial, it might give us a clue. Also, of course we don't know if the guns are number stamped when they are made, and then stored for an indeterminate time until shipped, or are made and stored, and stamped when they are shipped to a customer.

Good question, and hopefully someone can come up with some more information. It's sort of like trying to figure out when our favorite Smith and Wesson was made, except that the Chinese government has deliberately muddled the waters to throw foreign intellegence off the track.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Les: I believe some models Chinese 54 with SN that start in 2,3,4 were to add the first number to the initial date of 1953. As an example, my 54 SN starts with a three, so dated 1956 This oddity is mentioned in the AR article. Your research is greatly appreciated and adds lots of interest to this thread and these fine pistolss

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John

Sure thing.

8 digits, no spacing between the digits,

13051010
Stamped on both the frame and the slide, on the left hand side.

On the same left hand side of the slide, more to the muzzle
Sportarms Miami Fl
Made in China by Norinco
9x19mm T-54
in a clearly different font.

The barrel that came with it is 9mm, and has the last 4 digits of the serial (1010) stamped in the same font as the slide serial.

It came with wraparound Tokagypt style grips, which I replaced with the smaller grip panels, but I have kept them. Also came with 2 mags with the plastic base with the finger rest, they have the spacer inside the mag. I have added several standard Tok mags, and they feed 9mm ball just fine. One of the plastic bases broke, and I replaced it with a regular metal base.

This was my first pistol, and other than the "idiot scratch" behind the slide stop retaining clip, the finish has held up very well. I figure it has at least 2k rds through it, maybe more, before I started buying other pistols. I find it to be very accurate.

I mention the 2k rd count, because someone somewhere has stated that the Norincos are supposedly poorly made, and are only good for 2k rds... mine must have missed the memo, as it's still very tight and doesn't give me any hassles.

Scoobysnacker:

Just still having your first pistol has to be a great satisfaction!! I wish when I was younger that I had kept more of my early guns. Well, I still have a couple of them, and it is cool to reflect on the pleasure that they gave me over the years.

The 13 at the beginning of the serial number would certainly seem to indicate a 1966 manufacture for the gun, if it was produced at the same Arsenal, is there a "66" anywhere on the gun? Just curious. Different arsenals might have had differing systems.

I am glad to have another gun in the mix, to expand our database a bit. If I am not mistaken, the manufacturer would have only had to substitute a new 9mm barrel to convert the gun to that caliber, and back then there was not as much of a market here for 7.62x25, so it was probably a marketing move to send over a product for which we had a plentiful supply of ammunition available.

I see a bunch of the 9mm versions for auction, I'll see what I can find and get back with you.

Looking at OLDSTER's post above, we are putting more guns together here, maybe someone will jump in with more information, and we will be able to answer your question with a little more certainty.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

In examining mine, I can't find any other marks other than a stamped "A" on the right trigger guard (you can see it in the photo), and inside the slide, on the underside of where the firing pin is, there is a "4" and a "C". These are widely spaced (separate from each other), and inverted to each other- the C is near the hammer end, and reads correctly if you hold the muzzle up. The 4 is near the chamber/ejection port, and reads correctly if you hold the muzzle pointed down.

No markings of the triangle or 66 on the slide that I can find, or anything else on the frame... although there's a chance something may be under the grip. I don't recall seeing anything the last time I took them off, and it's a bit of work to take them off.

Perhaps that 99 in the diamond on the box can be of some help... inverted 66 maybe?
I like the straightforward marketing design the Chinese used with the box, too. As they say, it is a "pistol"

For you guys wanting an extra mag or two for your Tokarev, I will put in a good word for J&G Sales LTD, Prescott, AZ.

On-line you do have to scroll down to "Tokarev" even though your pistol may be any one of the other copies.

I had an opportunity to shoot the Chi-Com Tok I'm trying to buy with two of the J&G mags. Both work just fine.
I believe they must be original surplus (?) because they have serial numbers stamped,plus they are stuffed with grease.

On the matter of the assembly pin that looks like a screw on the mag lock/release, I understand it is NOT a screw, and requires a special "punch" for removal. Anybody got a handle on one of those ?

Thanks Les B and oldster for continuing to add info about these pistols.

__________________
wanna do right-- not right now

Rog8732,
The tool you are talking about is called a split pin punch. You can make one from rod stock. You chuck a piece into a drill and sand it down to the right diameter. Then take a file and cut a 90 degree V in the end.

In use when you tap the pin the V will compress the split pin and push it thru. Here's a link to an article I wrote about 15 years ago that tells how to tear down a Norinco Tokarev 213 and the use of the punch:

Tokarev 213

Scoobysnacker: My 54, as well as a few other I've seen, show a 99 like yours. This is an obvious mistake by the arsenal inspector, as it should be 66 Thanks for adding interesting info to this thread. BTW, there are more Tok fans out there than I first realized. There's a Tokarev Firearms Forum that's fun and informative to visit.

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John

serger...That is information about the pins, and much much more, with the link to the article you wrote.

Nice compilation on what can be a mystery to some of us !

__________________
wanna do right-- not right now

serger:

Great article!! Very good information. Thanks for sharing with us.

Best Regards, Les

__________________
SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064