I recently purchased this Colt New Service in 45 Colt. I was anxious to shoot it but it has cylinder throats that measure .454 and I was afraid it would not be accurate with the .452 bullets I had on hand . I have a Lyman 45266 mould that casts a .454 200 grain bullet so I cast a couple of hundred and ran them through a .455 sizer. I loaded these with 8 grains of Unique and headed for the shooting range. I first shot the revolver at 7 yards and found that it did not shoot to the point of aim so I put an orange dot on a target for an aiming point and put it up at 25 yards. As you can see I did not get the dot in the right place to center the group but I was pleased with the group size as this is about as good as I can do shooting standing with a two hand hold.

As near as I tell the gun was made in 1917 and is in great condition. I am sure the finish is original as the rampant colt is still proud to the surface. The gun came with a period holster that is also quite nice.

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Don't you love that big beast?! I fell for this 1917 Army version a few years ago. I don't know where it's been hiding for the last 100 years, but it is in pristine shape:



Well, it would be if someone hadn't "hand checkered" the grips!! Other than that it has no rust or even patina. I mostly shoot my hand loaded Auto Rim cartridges rather than use the moon clips.

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

I have a pair of Colt 1909s, basically a .45 New Service. For me, they seem to shoot well with a 200 grain .452 bullet over 6.5 grains of Bullseye.

Beautiful gun. Looks like the front sight has been filed down. That may make some difference in your aiming point or bullet weight.

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Eccentric old coot

Les,

Very nice find! That brushed blue finish is definitely original as I have several New Service guns with the same look. The front sight may have been filed but the "shark fin" shape is factory correct.

I was laughing about the checkering before I got to your comment. I wonder if the "artist" worked to improve his technique or gave it up? The bluing condition is amazing.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

The only Colt I have left is a 455 New Service. The only reason
I still have it is because it is surprising accurate for a old fixed
sight revolver. I use a modified 45/70 mold and size to 457.
Gun is deadly at 25'. Bullet is 272gr, only going 650fps.

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Wow. Your gun looks brand new. My nickel .45 Colt is from 1930. Might as well throw in my 1917 belly blaster again here. Supposedly the wild west was over by the time these came out. But with the Mexican Revolution, Arizona Rangers era, and Texas and Oklahoma oil booms, I don't think so.

Iggy: I am sure you are correct about the front sight and the bullet weight. I am looking for a 454190 or 454424 mould hoping a heavier bullet will shoot closer to the point of aim.

Wyatt: Love your "belly blaster"

One of my 1917's had a cosmetic facelift and the other had reconstructive surgery.

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C & L

I think either of these belly blasters would look great coming out of my pocket! I have been looking for a good one (Colt or S&W) for almost 20 years now!

Ivan

I had a 1917 S&W made in 1917 but the barrel number did not match the gun. it was one of the most accurate pistols I have ever owned and shot dead on to point of aim. wish I had it back.

Nice shooting!

I love taking mine to the range now and then. The old guns even draw attention from the Tupperware crowd.

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It's difficult to beat the intimidation factor of a .45 Colt New Service with a cylinder full of lead bullets pointed at you.

My New Service was a 5.5 inch barreled one, blue, walnut grips, checkered, and I think had a silver Colt medallion on the grips. It was danged nearly new when I got it about 1970.


With 250 grain Remington factory loads, it shot really tight groups at 25 yards, less than half the size groups in the OP. It was quite capable of putting all six shots into one ragged hole on a good day.


I've also owed a M-1917 Colt, a version of the NS. It was also a good gun, but I didn't like dealing with half moon clips and Auto-Rim ammo was hard to find and shot badly. The gun had a dull gray Parkerized finish, like most Colts of its model.


For many years, the NS served both RCMP and NYSP. I think the last produtin runs were in 1940-41 for RCMP and the Royal Canadian Navy. Both orders were in .45 Colt.


I worried that the small rims on .45 Colt cases might not allow clean extraction, but never had an actual problem.


The Army worried over the same issue and the M-1909 had ammo with wider rims, loaded only at Government arsenals.

The ammunition made for the Colt Model 1909 was essentially the .45 Colt cartridge but with a slightly larger rim diameter, not wider grips. That was to prevent extraction problems and jamming with the smaller diameter .45 Colt rim. That is not normally common when using .45 Colt ammunition, but it can happen. And I have had it happen. A little care in extraction eliminates the problem. I think the Army's concern was oriented to the likelihood of more careless extraction in the heat and confusion of combat. The .45 M1909 cartridge was manufactured only at Frankford Arsenal.

I have a sample M1909 round. Here's the headstamp. the rim measures .534"; the rim of a modern Winchester 45 Colt cartridge measures.510". The M1909 cartridge was loaded with RSQ powder; read Phil Sharpe's book: Complete Guide to Handloading to find out the story behind the powder and the name.

The 45 Colt cartridge and the Colt SAA were designed together. The SAA has rod ejection so the cartridge rim was just large enough to prevent the cartridge from falling out the front of the chamber. The smaller rim meant the chambers could be closer together, so the cylinder was smaller. The smaller cylinder meant the frame could be smaller and the pistol lighter, for the same power cartridge. A win-win situation.

The small rim didn't give an extractor much to grab onto, so there were extraction problems particularly with black powder fouling and pitted chambers. The Schofield revolver used a star ejector and the 45 Schofield had a larger rim. The Winchester Model 92 rifle and the corresponding Marlins had claw extractors and they were not chambered for the 45 Colt because black powder and pitted chambers would not give reliable extraction, particularly when the rifle was hot from firing many rounds. Modern renditions of the 92 are chambered for the 45 Colt, because the ejection problem has largely disappeared with smokeless powder, and we are able to give our rifles better care than possible on the frontier.

Now, I fire my 1909 with 45 Colt cases and have no extraction problems with it. I also have a S&W 625 Mountain Gun in 45 Colt,a nd it gives no extraction problems either.

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I've got one that apparently started as a .45 Colt and ended up with a .45acp cylinder (probably in Mexico).

It shoots TERRIBLE with .452s. I've been meaning to try loading it with .454s, but when I had the time, I didn't have the money. When I had the money, I didn't have the time.

Updated with picture.

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"As near as I tell the gun was made in 1917 and is in great condition. I am sure the finish is original as the rampant colt is still proud to the surface. The gun came with a period holster that is also quite nice."
How about a photo of that period holster ?
Regards,
turnerriver

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turnerriver

Turnerriver: The holster is nice but pales in comparison to yours. The interesting thing about the holster is that there is a name written under the swivel flap on the back. The name is J. T. Gorman followed by an eight digit number that is now unreadable.

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With all the excitement over our New Services and 1917s, coupled with the 80 degree weather we are having here in WV today, I dug mine (see post #2 above) out of the safe. I still have about 1/2 box of Auto Rims that I had loaded some time ago, and looking at my notes, I see that I had loaded them with 452s, which as cmort666 says above, are not a very good choice. As he points out, they don't shoot that well. Now that I have some empty brass, I will see if I still have some .454" bullets... Weather permitting, it's supposed to turn bad again tomorrow, I will try to work up a better load. But I still love the big gun. Since the last time I had her out, I have aquired a Tyler T Grip for her!!

Edit: I can't resist: Here she today wearing her new T Grip...not a vintage one, but it'll do til I can find one, these things are scarce!! Also some of my Auto Rim reloads. I need to slug the bore and the chamber throats, but can see that I need a larger bullet.

PS: when I took the grips off to install the T Grip, I saw that both grips had the matching serial number written in pencil. Unlike Smith, where it was on the right grip only. Just a detail, but thought some of you might be interested.



Almost like getting a new gun!! Thanks everyone for the posts, and to the OP, rufgr for starting the thread!!

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

I bought a Colt in 45 back in 1974 for under $100. It was so bad that I was scared to shoot it. My wife watched from the window of our house as I took it out to the yard to see if it was safe to shoot. That way she could call an ambulance very quickly. I stood behind a big tree, held the gun in my left hand, and totally hid my body behind the tree. I can live without my left hand. I think I even closed my eyes when I pulled the trigger. Well, I still have my left hand and all my fingers. Sold the gun a year later to a surgeon for double what I paid for it.

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Dr. B

The initial propellant used for the M1909 cartridge was Bullseye. Problem was that the loading equipment at Frankford wasn't very reliable, and heavier charges than intended were sometimes thrown, resulting in a Ka-Boom. Frankford switched to a special powder named RSQ which had much lower bulk density and filled the case completely (which is what Trail Boss is supposed to do). It's a strange-looking powder for the time - it looks like ball powder, with somewhat spherical granules. RSQ = Rescue, which rescued Frankford's ammunition project. Apparently at one time, RSQ was available to reloaders, but I have never seen a can of it. I have always suspected it was a semi-smokeless powder.

The 1917s, both Colt and S&W, were designed to shoot full metal jacketed ammo. Often, they don't shoot as good when used with lead bullets.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Muley:

Yes, I also shoot FMJ .45 acp in the moon clips, and have experimted with loading FMJs into Auto Rim cases with good results. The rifling in this revolver is like new, but as you point out, is shallow for the jacketed ammo. I was experimenting with these .452s mainly because I had a couple of thousand of them in the shop, and was just hoping they would work. And they do, but accuracy suffers. That's ok, I have other 45s that digest them well.

Here is a shot of the bore: not a very good photo.... and the speck near the muzzle is just a bit of lint:



By the way, apologies to the OP for the thread drift.....

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Les.B - I wonder if the 45 Colt rifling was different than the 45 ACP rifling as the Colt uses lead bullets and the ACP uses jacketed?

I think that in theory, at least, that that is the way that they were supposed to be rifled. But in the press of wartime production, whether they turned out that way is some thing that we can only determine by examining surviving samples. I only have the one pictured, and it would be interesting to put it side by side with one chambered for the .45 Colt cartridge, and see if the rifling on the .45 Colt was deeper than the one chambered for the .45 ACP. I'll bet someone has already done this, and I'll poke around a little in my gun library and on the Internet and see what already exists out there.

Edit: here's an article from "Shooting Times" which looks at some of the issues regarding loading for the 1917, and the Auto Rim in particular: The .45 Auto Rim

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064