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  #1  
Old 03-18-2017, 04:52 PM
rchall rchall is offline
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Default Winchester Model 12 16 gauge

Happened upon a Model 12 16 gauge pump shotgun today at a gun show. 28 inch nickel steel barrel with full choke. Looked to be an original gun in 90/95 percent condition. Seller asked $700. I didn't buy it because I wasn't sure if the price was too high. Any help with this one would be appreciated!
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  #2  
Old 03-18-2017, 05:22 PM
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Saw one at GM a couple of weeks ago for $375
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Old 03-18-2017, 05:24 PM
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That price for a 16 ga. seems high. I'd like one, but not for that price......
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Old 03-18-2017, 05:49 PM
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Probably not outrageous at $700; and definitely not if it had a vent rib barrel. The Model 12s, while wonderful guns, don't have the following they once did. I have one pretty much as you've described for which I paid $400. . .but 20 years ago. . .and thought I'd paid too much then. Nice to have at least one of anything John Browning designed though. Good luck.

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Old 03-18-2017, 10:01 PM
targetchief targetchief is offline
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Seems high for a field grade in 16ga. $550 to $600 would be top of the market here. A nickle steel would be 1929 or earlier.
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Old 03-18-2017, 11:09 PM
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I prefer auto loading shotguns for hunting, and only use 16 ga. I have 5 of them. That said, about 5 years ago I found what looked like an unused or lightly used M 12 16ga,plan barrel full choke. It was $475.00 I went home and pondered it went back and got it. The store thought it had been refinished, but in researching it read that the original bluing will develop a bit of very fine spider webbing or eggshell type (for lack of better description) of condition which this has. The bluing is not missing or compromised in any way, but has that slight crackle like an old oil painting. You can only see it if you look close and hold it just right in good light. The wood still for sure has the original finish.

But the icing on the cake was when I found out it was made in 1914, the first year the 16ga came out and now it is 103 years old and looks pert near new. If you are a 16ga geek like me and it is in high condition consider there will never be any more
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  #7  
Old 03-19-2017, 09:27 AM
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I bought one last summer at a LGS for $200.00, in really good condition.
Sometimes even a blind hog finds an acorn or two.

Have a blessed day,

Leon
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  #8  
Old 03-19-2017, 09:40 AM
30-30remchester 30-30remchester is offline
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I am a addict for early Winchesters. I have bought used vehicles and second hand shirts so I could buy another Winchester. Model 70's, model 1894's and model 12's are my heroin. The fact I live in an area where shotguns have little use does not weaken my need for just one more model 12. I keep an eye on what they cost, but giving a response to the op's question without details is about impossible. There are SO may factors to consider. Is it a pre war? Does it have an early Winchester built solid or vent rib. Is it one of the rare engraved models? Factory pad or ultra rare widows peak steel butt plate? As stated many things effect value. Pre wars add $50 to $100 to collects like myself. Pre 1955 models are more sought after than post 1955 models. Taking a wild stab at price and assuming it is an ordinary off the shelf model 12, the $700 dollar price tag is a tad high though I have seen a few very nice examples sell for that much. The 16 gauges were cursed and looked down upon in the 1960's through present day by people with little knowledge on the subject. But they are highly regarded by scatter gunners with some above average knowledge of the matter and may I add they may possess at tad more class as well. The model 12's are the ultimate in high quality manufacturing with few other gun coming close to the skill and effort put into its construction. Being milled from billets of steel, the weight of model 12's turn some people off. The 12's came in 2 frame sizes. The 12 gauges and the smaller gauges. The 16's were built on the smaller frame thus being sought after for their lighter weight.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:06 AM
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As stated above, there are many factors to consider. A few questions I would ask, is the Model 12 a solid frame or a take down frame. Also, I don't know the proper nomenclature, but does it have the rapid plug (screw in) or standard plug (take apart the mag tube)?

If the example you are looking at is a take down frame vent rib with rapid plug in 16ga, I would pay $700 for it.
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  #10  
Old 03-19-2017, 10:22 AM
HARDWARE HARDWARE is online now
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1947 field grade 16 with improved cyl

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  #11  
Old 03-19-2017, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by targetchief View Post
Seems high for a field grade in 16ga. $550 to $600 would be top of the market here. A nickle steel would be 1929 or earlier.
Until sometime in the 1920s Model 12s in 16 gauge had 2 9/16" chambers. I have one that has had the chamber lengthened and the ejection port opened up for 2 3/4" shells.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:39 AM
Skeetr57 Skeetr57 is offline
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Back in post #4 reference is made to John Browning. Browning did not design the M12 Win. I believe that the designer was named Johnson.
One problem with the pre WWII 16 ga M12 is that it is not easily converted to 2 3/4" shells. The earlier 20 gauges can be converted by just reaming the chamber longer, but the 16 also requires that the ejection port be lengthened to get reliable ejection.
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  #13  
Old 03-19-2017, 12:06 PM
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My 1914 model 1912 16ga does not appear to have been altered and fires and ejects 2 3/4in. shells just fine.
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  #14  
Old 03-19-2017, 02:40 PM
30-30remchester 30-30remchester is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeetr57 View Post
Back in post #4 reference is made to John Browning. Browning did not design the M12 Win. I believe that the designer was named Johnson.
One problem with the pre WWII 16 ga M12 is that it is not easily converted to 2 3/4" shells. The earlier 20 gauges can be converted by just reaming the chamber longer, but the 16 also requires that the ejection port be lengthened to get reliable ejection.

Skeeter is correct kind of. Winchester originally chambered the model 12's in 20 gauge only and in 2 1/2" chambering only. The time frame is off a bit. The short chambers changeover happened early. Then in 1914 both 16 gauge and 12 gauge chamberings were offered. The 12 gauge was offered in 2 3/4" chambering only. The 16 gauges were chambered in 2 9/16" length only. Then in 1927 Winchester changed the chamber length on all gauges to 2 3/4". I have not heard that 16's were harder to convert to the longer shells than the 20's. To me it would seem the opposite since the 20 had shorter shells, but I have never heard anything about either conversion, I just know it was a common practice.

POORDEVIL mentioned that his early 16 shoots 2 3/4" shells well and ejects well. He does not believe it was altered. It is easy to check. Remove the barrel and use a straight edge stainless ruler. Simply push the ruler down till it touches the forward edge of the chamber, then check the measurement.

Many people do not realise that shotgun shell are measured when the hull has been fired. A 2 3/4" loaded shell actually only measures @ 2 1/2" loaded. When the crimp expands on firing the hull had a place to "get out of the way". Twelve gauge guns with 2 3/4" chamberings can quite often chamber a loaded 3" shell. When shooting a 3" in a shorter chamber will not have a place for the lengthening case to get out of the way. The shot column must squeeze past the hull.

Last edited by 30-30remchester; 03-19-2017 at 02:49 PM.
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  #15  
Old 03-19-2017, 05:31 PM
Drm50 Drm50 is offline
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Around my area the Win 12 has come down in price a good bit.
Main reason is the market. Us old guys that hunt with them are
dying out. The new generations want latest lightweight gun with
Synthetic stocks. There will always be a market for collector grade guns. Good used shooters are going $300-$400 in 12 &16g
A 20g will bring another $100, 28g are still crazy priced. The 1897 Win is coming up in value because young crowd sees it
in action movies and Cowboy shooting sports. When I see one on
line for $600-$800 and it's just a used field grade gun, you know
seller don't get out much. I was at a auction a while back, a nice
M12/16g sold for $325, the very next gun was a Moss 500/ camo
it brought $450. I remember thinking to myself I should start
collecting Beanie Babies.
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  #16  
Old 03-19-2017, 06:12 PM
2152hq 2152hq is offline
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I'll pile on and agree the price is a bit high for the present market, being a plain field gun.
A 20ga may peak some more interest just because it's a 20, no other reason,,it's the same gun frame size and all.

It's getting so the finely made all steel pumps from the early to mid 1900's are a drag on the market unless something really special.
I like 'em and especially the odd ones not often seen.

I know a couple dealers that routinely take 12ga guns (M12's Ithaca 37's, Stevens 520, ect) bought right (around $200 or less very often), cut the bbl to 20", reset the bead and they sell quick as riot guns in the $400 to $500 range,,,everyone wants a riot gun.
Makes 'em feel like their fav movie star I guess., They do seem to pull their wallet out of their pocket quicker when they one for some reason.
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  #17  
Old 03-19-2017, 06:45 PM
Drm50 Drm50 is offline
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I don't butcher a gun like a m12. I do take run of the mill shotguns that don't sell and cut barrel to 181/2" and reset a bead. Gun will go in a heart beat, yuppies must not have hacksaws. You can actually get more sawed off than factory
barrel.
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  #18  
Old 03-19-2017, 08:10 PM
Pig Hunter Pig Hunter is offline
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The model 12 is a classic. The balance is close to that of a nice sxs game gun. The 16 ga. really does carry like a 20 and hit like a 12 ga. The 16 can have ejection problems even with original 2 3/4" chambers as case lengths are so variable. Most 20 ga. hulls are closer to 2 5/8 than 2 3/4. I traded into a nice 16 ga. field gun last fall. I haven't shot a pump in probably 10 years, but I shot a 20 at skeet the second round I shot with it. And the choke really was still full. I'm not that good, It just handles well. Prices on M-12's go up and down, but the aren't making any more of them.
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Old 03-19-2017, 10:45 PM
rchall rchall is offline
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This is just a field grade gun. No rib or any special features. It was made around 1928, 28" nickel steel barrel and a 2 3/4 factory marked chamber.
No alterations of any kind that I could see.
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  #20  
Old 03-20-2017, 11:07 AM
Skeetr57 Skeetr57 is offline
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I have owned on used both an early 20 ga and 16 gs M12, The 20 that I still have was made in 1914, and I opened the chamber to 2 3/4" myself. I have never had a problem with ejection with any brand of shells. The 16 ga was a Trap grade with a solid rib barrel and straight grip stock. I also extended the chamber on it, but I only found one brand of shells that would eject reliably, and I didn't have a milling machine then to extend the ejection port. Measuring the chamber length on a M12 is complicated because approximately 1/4" of the chamber remains in the receiver when the barrel is removed, and has to be allowed for when measuring the chamber with the barrel removed.
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  #21  
Old 03-22-2017, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HARDWARE View Post
1947 field grade 16 with improved cyl

I looked at one today in almost this same condition but full choke. What concerned me was the area just forward of the ejection port. Now that I have seen this one it looks like this must be a heat treated area and takes the blue differently than the rest of the receiver. Asking $350, I had them set it back for me.
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:18 PM
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Interesting. I wondered about that spot myself and that makes sense cause that's exactly what it looks like

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Old 03-22-2017, 08:20 PM
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:35 PM
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pig Hunter View Post
The model 12 is a classic. The balance is close to that of a nice sxs game gun. The 16 ga. really does carry like a 20 and hit like a 12 ga. The 16 can have ejection problems even with original 2 3/4" chambers as case lengths are so variable. Most 20 ga. hulls are closer to 2 5/8 than 2 3/4. I traded into a nice 16 ga. field gun last fall. I haven't shot a pump in probably 10 years, but I shot a 20 at skeet the second round I shot with it. And the choke really was still full. I'm not that good, It just handles well. Prices on M-12's go up and down, but the aren't making any more of them.
I believe the 16's are built on the smaller 20 gauge frame. Dean
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:37 PM
Mike, SC Hunter Mike, SC Hunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22hipower View Post
Probably not outrageous at $700; and definitely not if it had a vent rib barrel. The Model 12s, while wonderful guns, don't have the following they once did. I have one pretty much as you've described for which I paid $400. . .but 20 years ago. . .and thought I'd paid too much then. Nice to have at least one of anything John Browning designed though. Good luck.

Jeff
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John Browning did not design the model 12......Thomas Crosly Johnson did...An engineer with Winchester after the Winchester/Browning split-up over royalties on the Browning Auto 5.......Browning DID design the Winchester models 87/ 93/97 pump guns/Remington mdl 10/31 pump guns............
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
As stated above, there are many factors to consider. A few questions I would ask, is the Model 12 a solid frame or a take down frame. Also, I don't know the proper nomenclature, but does it have the rapid plug (screw in) or standard plug (take apart the mag tube)?

If the example you are looking at is a take down frame vent rib with rapid plug in 16ga, I would pay $700 for it.
The only solid frame model 12 was the lightweight...few were made....ALL other model 12's were takedown.........The model 25 was a "cheaper" solid frame version of the model 12.......
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Old 03-23-2017, 08:53 PM
Kframerbluvr Kframerbluvr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HARDWARE View Post
1947 field grade 16 with improved cyl

I need another long gun like another hole in the head, but if a M12 like that one showed up at a decent price, I would probably succumb to temptation. Beautiful gun and so very well made.
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  #29  
Old Yesterday, 10:04 PM
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I bought a very, very clean one several years ago under 300. 750 seems high to me.
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