Picked this one up a while back, doesn't look to have been shot much if any at all.

How's it shoot? I had a prewar .38 Super Match that was a splendidly made gun, very smooth action, but wouldn't group for sour grapes.


Later, Colt began headspacing on the case mouth, as with most auto cartridges. Previously, they relied on the small semi-rimmed case, and it wasn't consistent. Accuracy suffered. I wonder how the later ones shot, with that chamber mod. But I don't know when Colt made the change.


I owned a couple of guns like yours, but in .45. They shot very well for unmodified .45 autos.

.38 Super is a great caliber in a 1911, here is a Talo LW Commander I just bought:

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Jim
Many K and N Frames

A Colt time-capsule! Great looking gun. Deserves to be fired.

Congratulations on finding that one!

My favorite handgun is the Colt GM in .38 Super. If you aren't already aware, it's a snap to convert to 9mm by just swapping out the barrel and getting a 9mm magazine. Two guns for about the same price as one. Sometimes 9mm works OK through a .38 Super magazine, worth a try. Just as easy to convert a 9mm GM to .38 Super.

I haven't shot it, too pretty to shoot. I know I may get chastised for that

Texas Star is exactly right. Your new gun is old enough to have the old-style barrel with the wrong head space. With the right barrel 38 Super is a marvelous cartridge.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

Very nice pistol. I just recently picked up a new stainless Colt Competion in .38 Super, very pleased with it.

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Wheel guns are real guns.

I have seen that Colt started supplying the case mouth headspace barrels in 1986. So unless the barrel on yours has been changed for a newer one, it's likely to headspace on the semi-rim. And that may or may not be a problem if the finest grouping is essential. Otherwise, nothing I'd worry about. I use a 9x23mm Winchester barrel in my Colt 1911, which does headspace on the case mouth. I made it by deepening a 9mm chamber with a 9x23mm chambering reamer. It works great with both 9x23mm (which is rimless) or .38 Super semi-rim loads. In fact, I see no reason why all .38 Super pistols shouldn't use the 9x23mm chambering, such as mine does. I have an EAA Witness in .38 Super (which also headspaces on the case mouth), but 9x23mm works fine in it also. I would definitely not use 9x23mm in a .38 Super chamber which was not cut to headspace on the case mouth.

First , I want to credit Jim Carmichel for writing about the .38 Super headspace issue. I think he did that in a book, and in either, Rifle or, Handloader.


This is a problem that Colt should have corrected by, say, 1935!
The gun was introduced in 1929, and it should have soon been apparent that something was wrong!


In modern terms, for the non-reloader, does 38 Super really offer much over Plus P 9mm? With the .357 SIG filling the niche that .38 Super was designed for, do we now need the old Super? If it was actually loaded hotter, to original specs, I'd say it had its merits. But I don't think modern .38 Super factory ammo really gives 1300 FPS, and don't think it's even now "listed" to do so. A good 9mm Plus P round will reach or exceed 1200 FPS. Most factory loaded Super ammo is probably no hotter, if that.


That doesn't mean that I'd forego buying a nice .38 Super like the OP's here. I like the Colt, and on a fairly recent gun like his, I'd have the barrrel re-chambered to headspace right. On my prewar .38 Super Match with fixed sights, that'd be a problem with a now very expensive collectors' gun.


I still think a Super would fulfill the need that a HS chum's dad bought his Super for: protection when hunting bear in New Mexico, as a backup gun to his rifle. He wanted a sidearm just for wear in bear country, just walking around, too. A FMJ .38 Super bullet of 130 grains appealed a lot to hunters then. Some carried Supers as defense against lions and tigers, too. The deep penetration of that bullet was the attraction. Even Elmer Keith respected that and 9mm penetration.


The series 70 Colts had a collet bushing that sometimes broke a finger on the bushing. But a modern Colt has the traditional solid bushing, and is no problem in that regard. Especially if they make the Super in stainless, it'd be a fine outdoors gun, although it might need the usual work done to accurize Govt. Model Colts. Across the board, I think CZ-75B and Beretta M-92FS pistols in 9mm will outshoot a Colt in either .38 or .45. I've never shot a Colt 9mm, but it'd have the same design faults of the gun in the other calibers.


Is today's .38 Super mainly just for nostalgia buffs? What do you guys think?

Candrews, very nice! Had one just like it. Probably for the best you think it's too pretty to shoot. The factory -Super 38- barrels of that era were really disappointing, to say the least. My '70 Government and Combat Commander with factory barrels didn't group, they patterned at 25 yards like a shotgun. This along with flattened and pierced primers with factory ammo. I replaced the factory barrel in the Govt. with a barrel headspacing on the case mouth and all was well. But if you're not going to shoot it, moot.

Yea, I admit it. I'm a fan of the caliber (currently have 3) and unless the gun was absolutely 100% mint and unfired, I'd shoot it

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

Beautiful gun....

As said, Colt used the original 1903 headspace on the case rim chamber when they came out with the 1911 Super .38 ACP in 1929...here is the whole story...

The Old Super .38 Barrels - 1911Forum

I've been shooting Supers since 1980 and a Commander so chambered has been my daily carry gun since then.

My first Super was an unfired 1969 GM that I traded a Model 29-2 for in 1980...50 yard groups ran 3'...yes FEET. A friend who posts here, NE450No2, gave me a HANDLOADER Magazine article on how to fix the problem and and once the properly headspaced BarSto barrel was fitted the groups with the same box of ammo shrank to 3".... The 1952 Commander I picked up at the same time (that I carried for 27 years) ran 18" groups and with the BarSto 3.5" 50 yard groups... The person who is credited with "the cure" is Major George Nonte...he had Irv Stone of BarSto make the first headspaced on the case mouth barrels.

And yes, 9x23 can be run from a loosely chambered Super but HOT .38 Supers should not be run from a 9x23 because the .38 Super is a straight walled case and the 9x23 is a tapered case like the 9x19. It will cause Super brass to stretch at the head and eventually fail.

A lot of good reading on Supers...

38 Super

Corbon


My favorite semi-auto round.....

Bob

"In modern terms, for the non-reloader, does 38 Super really offer much over Plus P 9mm? With the .357 SIG filling the niche that .38 Super was designed for, do we now need the old Super? If it was actually loaded hotter, to original specs, I'd say it had its merits. But I don't think modern .38 Super factory ammo really gives 1300 FPS, and don't think it's even now "listed" to do so. A good 9mm Plus P round will reach or exceed 1200 FPS. Most factory loaded Super ammo is probably no hotter, if that."

Texas Star...check out the full potential Supers from CorBon, Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Georgia Arms and several others... 124s run 1350, 115s run 1450 and the 90-100 grainers 1550....

Bob

10 yards...9mm/Super stainless Combat Commander...



50' slow fire...the one out was me not the gun...




My first Super...the 1969 GM....9 rounds at 50'....



Three caliber TALO Commander 9mm/Super/9x23...this was 18 rounds of 9x23 at 10 yards...

Both my carry guns are in 38 Super. One is a light weight Colt Commander and the other is CZ75 clone (EAA Witness). I swap between them depending upon the situation. Both are really nice guns and super accurate and being a "9mm Mag." is sure a big plus.

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Bill

Other than the fact that it is a P.I.T.A. to find .38 super ammo, it is a GREAT caliber and the Colt is a GREAT gun! When you find the ammo you like best, get a bunch of it or better yet Re-load the cartridges. Very nice!

I have always been fond it and I am not really into nostalgia. I think it is more versatile than 9x19, but I admit I am not one who worries about having double-column magazine capacity. I prefer the 1911 grip just the way it is.

The Super, and it's modern equivalent the Super Comp, made by Starline, have an advantage in handling heavier bullets, and I think generally the guns function better with a round that is the correct length for 1911s. And I've always found the Super a little easier to shoot well than .45. It's a quicker round and more forgiving of follow-through errors, in my experience.

I wouldn't want to replace my .45s with .38 Supers, but I do like having both. As has been said, a lightweight Commander in .38 Super that has decent sights and trigger - and a good barrel - does indeed make a really nifty trail gun.

I can't help posting a picture of my 1963 Commander in .38 Super:



I learned something today about the headspace issue, though that I was unaware of. Thanks to Texas Star, DWalt and others for the data.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Not really being a 1911 fan I can freely admit that the only Colt 1911 I would consider owning is a .38 Super. A friend of mine has one for me for the day I get around to paying his price. I think it has provenance - Robbie Leatham used it a few years ago. There is just something enigmatic and cool about the .38 Super. Anyone can have a .45.......

Chief...you're a Texan, and the 38 Super used to be one of the favorite go to guns of the Texas Rangers!! It should be a requirement that every Texan own one!!

I'm really happy with mine, but I'm glad I reload, as ammo is sometimes hard to find. I just use plain old 9mm bullets, whatever I have handy, and work up an appropriate load.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

"And yes, 9x23 can be run from a loosely chambered Super but HOT .38 Supers should not be run from a 9x23 because the .38 Super is a straight walled case and the 9x23 is a tapered case like the 9x19. It will cause Super brass to stretch at the head and eventually fail. "

Sez who? While my really hot loads (around 1500+ ft/sec) are all in 9x23 Win or 9x23 Starline SuperComp cases, I've fired no small number of hot reloads (around 1300-1350 ft/sec with 124 grain FMJ 9mm bullets using AA#5) in .38 Super brass, and never had anything close to a case failure. And I use .38 Super reloading dies for everything - both .38 Super and 9x23 brass, even though I also have a set of 9x23 Win dies. So basically, everything I fire is either a rimmed or rimless .38 Super. And I've been doing this since the mid-1990s. Regarding your first sentence, I would not use a 9x23 case in any .38 Super barrel with semi-rim headspacing, only a barrel with case mouth headspacing. As I earlier said, my .38 Super EAA Witness handles 9x23 loads like it was made for them. But the EAA .38 Super barrel headspaces on the case mouth.

Nice, I don't know why, but would really like a .38 Super 1911 myself. I do enjoy my 1911 in .40 S&W. Bob

Layne Simpson....gun writer and USPSA Championship shooter. He had several articles on using 9x23s in .38 Super and then having those barrels rechambered for 9x23... Also he was talking about non-ramped barrels. Are your barrels ramped?

And yes, I am only talking about headspace on the case mouth barrels.

Not saying it won't work as the three barrel TALO above had a very tight XSE barrel rechmabered to 9x23 and I don't bother switching it out when shooting Supers...but if I was shooting factory or handloaded hot Super would change back to the original very tightly chambered Super barrel that will not accept 9x23 rounds. That barrel will not even take a Super reload with the slightest of bulge...

Bob

Texas Rangers like Supers.... Would you want this "gentleman" pissed off at you...

Thanks for putting those Supers up. If those pictures don't bring a little smile, nothin' will.

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Halfway and one more step

If you are ever in Waco stop at the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame...real interesting place...

Les-


I think the Rangers are more known for carryng fancy .45's, but I met a game warden who wore a .38 Super.


When the gun appeared in 1929, Colt hawked it for shooting into cars, where the .38 Special was failing.


Of course, the Super soon scared the .38-44 out of the bushes over at S&W's factory.

Just for the record, the SAAMI specs for the .38 Super chamber is a base diameter of .3890+0.004" (.3890-.3894) and a cylindrical diameter of .3872+0.004" (.3872-.3876)

The SAAMI 9x23 Win chamber spec has a base diameter of .395-.007" (.388-.395) and a mouth diameter of .381-0.007" (.374-.381).

As I earlier said, I have two carbide die sets - Lee for .38 Super and RCBS for 9x23 Win. Back in 2009, I did some tests to see just what case dimensions resulted from both FL dies. I resized and measured several fired (in a .38 Super chamber) 9x23 cases in both with the following results:

Lee (for .38 Super) - Base diameter .382" (ahead of the extractor groove), body diameter .378" (full length)

RCBS (for 9x23 Win) - Base diameter .385"(ahead of the extractor groove), body diameter .373" (full length)

No significant dimensional differences, so essentially either die set could be used for either caliber. I just have a preference for the Lee dies, so that's what I use. Both produce a case with an easy fit into a SAAMI .38 Super chamber. Or in a SAAMI 9x23 chamber.

I have no idea what the actual chamber dimensions in my guns might be.

"In modern terms, for the non-reloader, does 38 Super really offer much over Plus P 9mm?"

Back in its days of peak popularity, there were no 9mm+P loads. A .38 Super factory load driving a 130 grain FMJ bullet at +/- 1200 ft/sec was indeed superior to commercial 9mm loads of that time. And certainly better than any .38 Special load, with the possible exception of the .38-44. To say nothing about the fact that the only 9mm pistols available in the 1930s and 40s were generally WWI and WWII Browning P-35s, Mauser C96s, Lugers and P-38s. I remember reading some story Elmer Keith wrote about loading the .38 Super to muzzle velocities over 1400 ft/sec (which can still be done today).

NOT! I shoot 9 mags of 45 every week. And after that, I put the 1911s in 45 away and I get out one of my supers and have a nice relaxing session with 6 mags of 130 gr. Oh what a relief.

Texas, you're a pretty good researcher, but the Super was pretty popular with Rangers, (as we see in the museum at Waco) even if outnumbered by the .45's.
Super was also highly prized by Mexican cops, and I still see one now and then amongst the brass federales and state comandantes.

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Halfway and one more step

For reasons I don't entirely understand, the .38 Super has always been very popular south of the border. It also has close cousins in foreign pistols chambered for the the 9mm Steyr and 9mm Bergman-Bayard (AKA 9mm Largo). Which cartridges also can generally be fired in .38 Super pistols.

DWalt, I bought my first Super around 1970 or so and guess the conclusions I've reached reference the Super 38 and 9X23 Winchester are similar to yours. My Colts will not chamber 9X23. My current and previous Kimber would, as will my STI. In fact, the chambers in these guns seem to be closer to 9X23 dimensions, rather than 38 Super. I've also used 38 Super dies to resize 9X23 will no ill effects.

I suspect the Super was popular South of the border due to prohibitions on "military" calibers. If I read the English translation of a section of Mexican gun law correctly, the Super too has been illegal there since the early '70s.

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

Two of my three "Esupers":


Weird how the grip safety, pins and hammer on the Pre-WWI pistol at top have retained their finish better than the frame. Doesn't look that extreme whilst viewing w/Mk.I eyeball. (Swartz safety equipped to boot!)

None pristine looking but all pre-1960's. One Post WWII being "fat barreled", the other "thin barreled".

Biggest complaint is two of the three don't shoot where the sights look. And the one that does is the worst for group size.

Keep thinking to get a modern version, just haven't stumbled across the right one yet!

BTW, my .38 Autos have groove sizes right at 0.360". Old Winchester ammo had bullets that were a close match, but all the shootable Remington I've ever found had 0.355" bullets. Not so good! But using .38 bullets in my reloads helps. Generally, the .38 Autos have been more accurate (and well regulated, sight-wise) than the Supers.

Having a "NIB" '70 Series would be wasted on me! Pretty though it may be.

My very first .38 Super pistol, back in the late 1960s, was a Spanish Llama "Extra" (barrel marked Cal. 9mm/38), basically a M1911 copy. There has always been a debate as to whether it was intended to fire both 9mm Largo and .38 Super ammunition, but I still put a lot of .38 Super rounds through it, also some 9mm Largo which was fairly cheap on the surplus market back then. I had a lot of fun with that Llama and was pleased with it. I found it shot better groups when I used 158 grain .357 lead bullets, even though they are little heavier than standard. Another gun I wish I had kept.

This Colt Super 38 is SN 8920, and dates from the second year of production. It hasn't been fired much, but with the headspace on the rim it is somewhat less acurate than current production. Needless to say, with a Colt of that period the workmanship is exquisite.

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Either bad typing or bad math!

Bad math. .3890-.3930 and .3872-3912