Sig facing lawsuit?

[ladder13]

NJ State Police File Lawsuit Against Sig Sauer Over Gun Malfunctions

2.5 million lawsuit on tap for "defective" guns?

[Breakaway500]

$865k for holsters? That's a lotta leather! Should have bought the Glocks in the first place.It's not like they are expensive or unproven in the field. Probably some bureaucratic rule/decision to put the contract out to bid instead of what the dept. wanted. I know if I had to carry "to serve and to protect"....it would be a Glock. (G22 if allowed..)
Sure hope the militarys new replacement 9mm sidearm, the Sig 320, fares better.

[AlHunt]

I don't think I'll be buying any police turn in Sig P229s.

[Jdavis]

Is this the same weapon that was accepted as a replacement for the M9?

[Pisgah]

This reminds me of the situation between S&W and the NC Dept. of Corrections a few years back. The new revolvers the department had ordered had a few problems, up to and including barrels falling off. S&W denied any problem at all until S&W officials finally went to NC and convened a range session with DOC officials -- where the barrel of the first revolver the S&W guys fired fell off.

[ladder13]

Originally Posted by Jdavis

Is this the same weapon that was accepted as a replacement for the M9?

That's the 320

[Absalom]

Reading the article, the key seems to be that the agency tested and accepted for adoption another version than what they were shipped.

It's a common problem, not just with guns. Nobody builds inherently "bad" guns, and the government/agency contract business is very competitive, so a lot comes down to how efficiently ("how cheaply" in plain English) you can produce large numbers, rather than individual characteristics of any given model.

In reference to the Sig P229, "Legacy" is likely code for "quality holdover from the good old days", and "Enhanced Elite" is really code for "new and cheaper to produce per unit". And this batch that went to the NJ State Police was apparently "enhanced" beyond salvage.

[MP1518]

I carry a Glock 9mm since 1994. Will probably retire carrying a Glock . lol. ZERO issues . My current ones are GEN3 17, GEN4 17, GEN4 19 and G43. I shoot Glocks A LOT. I never had problems with my German made P226 and P228 . Current Sigs I would not touch

[jack the toad]

Okla. highway patrol went to sig 320 a year or so ago.
IIRC, they had broken extractor probs early on.
Be interesting to see how the NJ thing plays out.

[MikeR90S]

They should have stuck with their P7M8's.

[K Frame Keith]

Originally Posted by MikeR90S

They should have stuck with their P7M8's.

Carried them the same time as NJSP had them, nice guns, very accurate, but very intricate mechanically and prone to spring breakage that would render the weapon inoperative.

[swsig]

I have to wonder what's going on at SIG. My P250, the hammer-fired predecessor of the P320, has had only a single failure to feed in 2800 rounds. And I must have one of the earlier, (mid-2014), better P320s. I've had only two failures to eject and one failure to feed in 5600 rounds. While the P320 is not exactly built like a battleship, it is at least built like a heavy cruiser. It's hard to conceive how the same gun that has run nearly perfectly for me has had extractor problems with the OK highway patrol. I hope for our troops' sake that SIG is not building them to a lower standard these days. In any case, both of my SIGs are keepers.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by swsig

I have to wonder what's going on at SIG. My P250, the hammer-fired predecessor of the P320, has had only a single failure to feed in 2800 rounds. And I must have one of the earlier, (mid-2014), better P320s. I've had only two failures to eject and one failure to feed in 5600 rounds. While the P320 is not exactly built like a battleship, it is at least built like a heavy cruiser. It's hard to conceive how the same gun that has run nearly perfectly for me has had extractor problems with the OK highway patrol. I hope for our troops' sake that SIG is not building them to a lower standard these days. In any case, both of my SIGs are keepers.

Very simple to understand. You shot 5600 rounds in 3 years. OkHP probably did that per gun in a weekend



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[Arik]

Sig has been riding their 80s reputation for a long time. From late 90s to about 2010 they were complete garbage. Dropped by many departments or simply not upgraded by those departments. What they did was focus on civilian sales because very very few civilians actually put their guns to the test. So Sig made 30 versions of each gun and each version had another 20 finish options and so on. Mainly aimed at civilians.


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[ladder13]

Sig didn't do so well in the 80's either with their ****** cheap pot metal frame rails. Bought one the late 80's and would never buy another.

God help our servicemen.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Guns don't work. Sig can't get em to work. Then can't replace the guns as scheduled. Curious why a lawsuit would be required rather then Sig voluntarily refunding and moving on...

[Arik]

Originally Posted by ladder13

Sig didn't do so well in the 80's either with their ****** cheap pot metal frame rails. Bought one the late 80's and would never buy another.

God help our servicemen.

Frames were aluminum. You happened to have gotten a lemon. Breaking rails was not something that was an issue.

The new 320 is not the same thing as the old legacy P series. The 320 was made to compete with Glock.
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[HOUSTON RICK]

Don't know anything about Sigs, but I do know that purchasing folks can be corrupted.

[spad124]

Originally Posted by Arik

Sig has been riding their 80s reputation for a long time. From late 90s to about 2010 they were complete garbage. Dropped by many departments or simply not upgraded by those departments. What they did was focus on civilian sales because very very few civilians actually put their guns to the test. So Sig made 30 versions of each gun and each version had another 20 finish options and so on. Mainly aimed at civilians.


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My experience with Sig has been good. But both of mine are used. I have a P6 that dates to 1978 and a P226 CPO German frame/US stainless slide that dates to 2001. Both are 100% reliable.

[Arik]

I'm sure they are but how reliable is reliable? Can I shoot 5k rounds in a few days without cleaning and without failure?

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[RubenZ]

I have never ever had an issue with my Sigs(P226 mk25, P938,M11-A1). In fact I sold off 4 different Glocks because I just can't stand the sight of them and their grip or lack of. Are they good, hell yes but the sigs Ive owned have been far better weapons. And Glocks of today aren't the Glocks of yesterday. Glocks gen 4's had lots of issues early on as well.

[RubenZ]

Originally Posted by Arik

I'm sure they are but how reliable is reliable? Can I shoot 5k rounds in a few days without cleaning and without failure?

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You wouldn't get that reliability in 100% of the Glocks you try either.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by RubenZ

I have never ever had an issue with my Sigs(P226 mk25, P938,M11-A1). In fact I sold off 4 different Glocks because I just can't stand the sight of them and their grip or lack of. Are they good, hell yes but the sigs Ive owned have been far better weapons. And Glocks of today aren't the Glocks of yesterday. Glocks gen 4's had lots of issues early on as well.

"Glocks of today aren't the Glocks of yesterday"

Care to elaborate?

So you bought and sold four Glock pistols before you realized you didn't like the grip?

Sounds like a true Sig fan boy. How dare we talk bad about Sigs.

[rwsmith]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

Guns don't work. Sig can't get em to work. Then can't replace the guns as scheduled. Curious why a lawsuit would be required rather then Sig voluntarily refunding and moving on...

That's not the corporate or even the American way. "So, sue us." is the more common attitude. What you say would be extremely honorable but if you want your money back you are going to have to take it out of their hide.

Also, the very worst I've heard of Sig is that they were great but an S&W would do the same thing cheaper. NOW, I'm hearing all kinds of "they are trash", "never buy another one" and "They haven't made a good gun since the '90's. No, wait, their guns were **** in the 80's." Where did all this come from. Have people been afraid to say that the emperor doesn't have any clothes on?

Thirdly, I'm surprised the 'home office' hasn't stepped in on this one and helped make it good. Are the German factories so booked up they can't help out here? (I realize that trade/manufacturing agreements might not allow this, but I guarantee that if American Honda was having this kind of trouble a planeload of Japanese executives would be here pronto).

[RubenZ]

Originally Posted by Kanewpadle

"Glocks of today aren't the Glocks of yesterday"

Care to elaborate?

So you bought and sold four Glock pistols before you realized you didn't like the grip?

Sounds like a true Sig fan boy. How dare we talk bad about Sigs.

Not a fan boy, I just get what I like to shoot. In fact I've been a glock owner longer than a SIG owner. What I meant about older Glocks is that my gen 4's had more FTE's and other issues than my Gen 3's.

I wasn't bashing Glocks, in fact I said they were good weapons. I still may get a G20 again. I just after trying SiGs prefer to shoot them more and I'm more accurate with.

[Kanewpadle]

Originally Posted by rwsmith

That's not the corporate or even the American way. "So, sue us." is the more common attitude. What you say would be extremely honorable but if you want your money back you are going to have to take it out of their hide.

Also, the very worst I've heard of Sig is that they were great but an S&W would do the same thing cheaper. NOW, I'm hearing all kinds of "they are trash", "never buy another one" and "They haven't made a good gun since the '90's. No, wait, their guns were **** in the 80's." Where did all this come from. Have people been afraid to say that the emperor doesn't have any clothes on?

Sigs are no better or worse than any other gun. As usual there is way too much over reaction before the facts come to light.

Sig has had problems with cracked slides but that was years ago. And Beretta had the same problem.

Stuff happens. How a company responds to and corrects the problems is the real test. We can only wait and see.

[RubenZ]

Also, just because the NJ police says they have issues doesn't mean Sigs are junk. With that same logic S&W is junk based in the below from years ago.

Texas DPS Ditches S&W M&P Handguns Over Reliability Issues - The Truth About Guns

[swsig]

Originally Posted by Arik

Very simple to understand. You shot 5600 rounds in 3 years. OkHP probably did that per gun in a weekend



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Ah, that explains it. If a gun can't fire 5600 rounds in a weekend, it isn't much good for police use. I can understand that standard for military use, where troops may have to fire a lot of rounds in a short period of time. But if Oklahoma highway patrolmen ever need to fire at that rate, they (and us) will have bigger issues to deal with than SIG's quality control.

For a different reason, I'm surprised the P320 has ever been chosen for police work. Mine came with a fairly light out-of-the box trigger pull weight of 5.5 lbs. and only a drop safety, making NDs really easy to accomplish. I wonder if OK had in increase in NDs as a result. Now SIG has raised the trigger pull to 6.5 lbs., and is making thumb safety models for the military, and maybe law enforcement. This was probably forced on them by DOD requirements, but it should help with sales to LE agencies that previously steered away from the P320 due to its lack of even a Glock-style trigger safety.

As much as I like my P320 (it's a real joy to shoot as a .357 SIG), I do recognize its limitations. But for me, reliability hasn't been one of them.

[Arik]

What limitations? It works like every other gun ever made. DONT PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER!

So since an offier may never even draw his gun the department standards for reliability should be much lower? It's only going to be in service for many years!

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[federali]

These types of issues have occurred before. Generally, the police subject their proposed gun adoptions to vigorous testing well beyond what the average CCW will put his gun through. They push the guns to failure. In SIG's defense, they did win the military contract which, involves some vigorous testing.

Perhaps 20 years ago, the Kentucky State Police retired from use, a large batch of new Walther PPK/Ss because of functioning issues. Also, NYPD, for a time, barred their officers from using Kahrs.

Regarding Glock: yes, they're ugly, some people don't like the grip angle but the darned things tend to work every time. However, I had functioning issues with my new Glock 19 which went away when I substituted a home made steel spring guide for the plastic guide furnished with the gun.

[Breakaway500]

I had a new 320 (full size) in my hand the other day. Dirt brown,or whatever color they called it. Felt very nice..and had an out of the box excellent trigger.No safety nannies and great sights. I was very very tempted at $625 but could not do it. The last Sig I owned was a P220..and one of the most accurate autoloaders I have ever owned.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by federali

These types of issues have occurred before. Generally, the police subject their proposed gun adoptions to vigorous testing well beyond what the average CCW will put his gun through. They push the guns to failure. In SIG's defense, they did win the military contract which, involves some vigorous testing.

.

But they're two different guns thou. The 229 and the 320.



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[Arik]

Originally Posted by RubenZ

You wouldn't get that reliability in 100% of the Glocks you try either.

Of course not. Nothing ever will be 100% that's a given. This is why you look at the track record overall. Sig Legacy guns have had major issues throughout the years. Mid 00 federal agencies were dumping Sigs in favor of other guns due to Sig's decision to save money and outsource parts as well as buy cheaper raw material. The former CEO tried to save a buck in every way possible. Once gov sales started to drop they focused on selling to civilians with the introduction of dozens of variations of each gun. At one time there was 30 variations of just the P226. And this doesn't include finish variations for each of those. They knew most civilians don't shoot nearly enough to have issues and those that do are a very small percentage. This is the same CEO who ran Kimber into the ground prior to his Sig position. After the new CEO came in, around 2010, quality slowly started to improve

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[Arik]

Originally Posted by RubenZ

I have never ever had an issue with my Sigs(P226 mk25, P938,M11-A1). In fact I sold off 4 different Glocks because I just can't stand the sight of them and their grip or lack of. Are they good, hell yes but the sigs Ive owned have been far better weapons. And Glocks of today aren't the Glocks of yesterday. Glocks gen 4's had lots of issues early on as well.

No, Glock 9mm gen 4 had issues. And even that wasn't really a problem. The company redesigned the extractor and people were being pelted in the face and head with brass. Is that good? No, absolutely not, BUT.....the guns did work. They chambered, shot, extracted, ejected and loaded a new round.....just as it should be. I'll take being hit in the face with brass over a none functional gun.

Grips are something that cannot be measured. It's different for different people. However, there's a reason why Glocks grip is the way it is and it had to do with the Austrian military. Close your eyes and point your finger at something as if it was the barrel of a gun! If you can point your finger you can shoot straight if your​vision is compromised

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[ladder13]

Originally Posted by RubenZ

Also, just because the NJ police says they have issues doesn't mean Sigs are junk. With that same logic S&W is junk based in the below from years ago.

Texas DPS Ditches S&W M&P Handguns Over Reliability Issues - The Truth About Guns

Yes, all guns have issues sometimes. there was a thread awhile back about the NCHP replacing their M&P's with Sigs due to the same sort of issues.
Some folks here used it as a platform to degrade the M&P platform in a gleeful tone.
No manufacturer is perfect.

[RubenZ]

Sig responds to allegations it provided New Jersey police defective handguns