Just picked up an "ugly" Walther PP .22. Found it in a funky
farm & hardware store. Asking/paid price was $279.00. It looked
really strange, and I wasn't sure about buying it.
Turns out it is a British Army L66A1. There is confusing history
about this pistol, and I am not sure about anything.
It functions great, OK accuracy wise, and still seems "glass
smooth." It came with two mags.
Any knowledge or experience about this Walther?
Thanks

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Lots of information about them on the internet, I have no personal knowledge or experience, but I have heard of them.

"In the mid-1970s the Royal Army Ordnance Corps purchased about 3000 Walther PPs in 22LR for the Ulster Defence Regiment, an infantry regiment operating out of British-controlled Northern Ireland. These guns were designated L66A1 and described, maybe a touch grandiosely, as a PDW or "personal defense weapon". The choice of a 22LR PDW is an odd one and I've never found a really definitive reason for it. My conspiratorial instincts lead me down some purely speculative avenues, but who knows? Ostensibly, these pistols were used for off duty carry by UDR members, were popular among servicewomen and occasionally used for training.

L66A1s fall in the 41693 to 45088 serial number range. They bear no British proof marks, or any other marks of British issue. Unlike commercial Walthers (see below), they were not proofed at Ulm and lack a date code and "antler" stamp. Instead, they were proofed at the West German military proofhouse at Koblenz.

Whatever they were for, the L66A1s were used pretty hard. Most underwent FTR ("factory through repair"), the British Army arsenal rebuild process. Firing pins were replaced (indicated by a "P" stamped on the slide) and the guns then parkerized and covered in Suncorite, a thick black lacquer as famous for its carcinogenic properties as for its resistance to solvents. Its jolly olde name nothwithstanding, Suncorite is banned in the States and the only way to get it here is to buy a surplus gun finished with it."

Are there any import markings on it?

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Jim
Many K and N Frames

OK, cool DWalt. Thanks. I should have gone farther on line.
I'll try to find out more I guess.
It is import marked; "IAC, (or TAC,)?, Alex Va". Really tiny.
Too bad it's so ugly, it really seems to be a nice piece.
Thanks

IAC was InterArmiCo or something like that down on the waterfront in Old Town Alexandria, Va. They became Interarms later.. I spent many hours there as a kid looking at all the cool stuff in the warehouse. Cool gun with unique history. Kyle

You said there were picture of an ugly gun. Looks typical for a Walther to me. But what do I know, my 4 were all PPK or PPKs models. It looks like a good used Walther to me and that price seems pretty good also.

Ivan

Call me weird but I have a thing for lanyard rings on handguns, I have never seen a Walther with a ring. Neat gun and history.

The import stamp is from:

International Armaments Corporation (Interarmco)
200 S. Union St.
Alexandria, VA

Back in the good old days of pre-GCA 1968 America they advertised surplus military small arms heavily in the American Rifleman and other gunmags. They also called themselves "Hunter's Lodge." They did have a large warehouse complex right on the water in Alexandria VA and I spent several interesting afternoons there when I was working in the DC area in the early 1960s. Anyone could walk in and browse the merchandise and buy. The stuff dreams are made of. BTW, the fact your Walther has an import stamp indicates that it was imported after GCA 1968.

Those pistols were imported into the USA in the mid 90's.
They came in with their original Walther black plastic boxes that had Brit inventory labels on them as well as a NATO stock number stamped on the Walther end label. No NATO number on the pistol itself.

Most were heavily used and FTR'd with a Suncorite (paint) finish. The 'P' on the slide means a reinforced firing pin installed during the FTR.
Some of the imports were in very nice almost unused condition and still showed their original Walther commercial high polish and blue finish which is what they all were when ordered.
About 3200 were orig ordered by the Brit Minister of Defense in the mid 70's from Walther.
Some were made with the standard Walther lanyard loop fitted to the mainspring plug as many of the 32acp PP models have that were W/German Police turn-in trades that got imported in the 90's.
Some did not have the feature and were aftermarket fitted with a non-Walther lanyard but still using the mainspring plug as the base.

The Eagle/129 is the Proof inspector# from the Koblenz (sp?) W/Germany Military proof facility where these were proofed. Not done at Ulm where the commercial Walthers were done. The reason??Who knows. A couple of speculative guesses around but again no verifiable answers that I know of. But I've been away from the collecting aspect of Walthers, Lugers and the like for quite a while so maybe there's more info on these now.

Were they used in N Ireland as some sort of undercover arm? or are they as some think just a training handgun used and maybe a bit abused by recuits over and over. Maybe there's some info to pin the story down now.

I picked one up a few years ago at a gun show. It was instantly identifiable by the West German military proofs and the absence of any commercial proof marks.

The blue was gone, and there was a fleck here and there in the nooks and crannies that suggested it had been Suncorite coated.





Since the surface itself was in sound condition I decided to Cerakote it to more or less replicate the Suncorite finish applied to FTR'd L66A1s.

Suncorite is a little glossier, but it still turned out well:



Internally it is in superb condition, and not surprisingly it's also a superb shooter - accurate and very reliable, provided you limit the magazine to 8 rounds.

----

Historically, speaking, they were reportedly ordered for the Ulster Defense Regiment as personal defense weapons and the explanation I've heard is that .22 LR was chosen as while they wanted to provide their troops with a personal defense weapon, they did not in fact want to provide them with one that might temp them to use it offensively.

They had only West German military proofs, which was supposedly a means of giving some one carrying it plausible deniability by not associating them with the British military. That seems odd however as the Brits could have just bought commercial PPs.

The caliber is still an odd choice as the .32 ACP would have been a much better choice and still not been heavy enough to delude people into thinking they had an offensive weapon.

And of course the Israelis were famous for using the Beretta M71 in .22LR as an assassination weapon - they just dumped the entire magazine into the target.

Here's my Israeli surplus Beretta next to my L66AI.



The similarities have of course lead to rumors that the British procured and used the L66A1 for the same purpose in Northern Ireland.

I've encountered a couple people who were issued them as training weapons and I saw a post on the internet by a former UDF who confirmed they were used by the UDF. If they were ever used as assassination weapons, no one is talking about it.

The Beretta cleaned up nice as well. It's not as accurate as the L66A1 but it is relentlessly reliable - an odd trait for a .22 LR pistol:

4T5GUY I think you found yourself a fine handgun at a very good price. I own two .22 PP pistols and believe you will find your handgun to be both reliable and accurate.

My instinct would be to treat the pistol as a "shooter" and have it Cerakoted for esthetic reasons.

Rich

I don't find it ugly at all, but my first handgun (a very long time ago) was a PP in 7.65--WWII bring-back.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Still more great information, and I didn't even have to join
another forum. :roll eyes:
From a collector perspective, would it be better to leave it alone?
I would hate to "ruin" it for someone else. The first thing I
thought was to refinish it, now I have some reservations. It just
might be worth more as is, (and I'm not meaning money wise.)
Guess I'll figure it out.
Thanks everyone

Very nice pistol(s) !

No (picture or real) "British Walther", but a British (Royal Air Force ?) Holster + a "civil" German PP in .22l.r.


P.44


Attached:
1. The "lost pb-pic"
2. The whole thing
3. PPK in 7,65mm (.32ACP)
4. TPH in .22l.r.
5. A "Swiss made" Walther (after this: Walther Olympia - Wikipedia )

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These aren't high value guns (the L66A1) but they do have a following and the Suncorite finish is an important part of its history. You will hurt its value if you refinish it, IMHO.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

^ This x1000. As a milsurp collector I would love to have one looking "ugly" in its original Suncorite. Remember that this is a military weapon, and shiny is bad on the battlefield. (Yeah, I know these never made it to any battlefield, but the military mind doesn't work like that )

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Release the Kraken

I've never seen anything authoritative which describes exactly what Suncorite is, and it appears that there were at least several different varieties of Suncorite, but not which one was used during WWII by the British commonwealth on guns. I have seen it described as being "black stove paint," but that is not too helpful. It's also mentioned as being highly carcinogenic, but yet there is never any proof of that provided. The only thing very certain is that it was fast and cheap to apply and did a reasonably good job of preventing rust, certainly satisfactory under wartime conditions. I suspect black Rustoleum high temperature spray paint used on BBQ grills, etc. would perform about as well.

It's interesting to note that back during the Crimean War, the British were painting their muskets black to make them less visible to the Russians. But probably not with Suncorite.

Suncorite is now Bonderite | EMC

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

As usual, I am late to the party. I picked up one of the British L66A1 Walthers in 1994. It was advertised in an InterArms ad in the old print Gun Digest paper. I paid $299.00. I had always wanted a PP in .22LR and this was the first I saw that was in my price range. It is marked on the right, lower frame "IAC ALEX VA" All other markings are standard Walther. There are two German proof marks on the left side of the frame behind the trigger guard. It came in a Walther PP box but not the same SN as the pistol. It appears to have the British labels on the box although they are mostly covered by an Interarms label. IIRC I received two magazines with it, one with the finger extension and one without. The finish was/is very worn and I don't believe it was ever refinished. I have shot it a lot and carried it in a bellyband holster back in my long distance running days. It is one of my favorite pistols. The SN is within the reported L66A1 range. Several years ago there was extensive posts on another forum on the L66A1. Interesting pistol.

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Keep Shootin' and check 6

I think I read somewhere that the Brits also issued .32 Model PP's to some generals and maybe to SAS personnel in N. Ireland. Also, RAF pilots sometimes had Model PPK's. Those also in .32/7.65mm.

But I asked a lady whom I knew whose husband is a retired Royal Navy Harrier pilot and he saw only the Browning 9mm. Not that RN pilots got the same guns as RAF in all cases...

Does anyone know if these statements about Model PP and PPK use are correct?

Pilots now get Glock Model 17's, I think, as those are replacing the Browning Hi-Power in British forces. But photos of Prince Harry in Afghanistan showed him with a Browning on his vest. Sometimes, in a waist holster. He also had a rifle in his quarters and carried it in his combat helicopter. That 9mm had late type grips and was a MK II or MK III. He was an Army pilot, so no RAF gun feedback. Prince William was an RAF helicopter pilot, but I never saw a pic of him armed. He flew mainly rescue missions in the UK.

Is the knurled nut on the muzzle of the Beretta to cover grooves for affixing a silencer?

The .22 issued to the Ulster Defence Regiment was officially designated the L66A1. The same pistol in .32ACP was designated the L47A1. It was issued to pilots and various other personnel. I've never seen any documentation that it was issued to General Officers but I'm no expert on Walthers or British small arms.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

I don't know, but what other purpose would it serve?

Oh come on.
A couple of days ago I asked a simple question about a "new"
British Army L66A1, that by accident I found and bought.
I was even going to send it to a fellow member who had more
interest in it than I did.
Now, I need to find a British Army L47A1 to keep it company.
This group is as bad, no, worse than that Semi-Auto bunch I
usually hang out with.
Thanks again for all the replies

Yes, please find an L47L1 and then send both of them to me. :-)

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

All those Beretta Model 71s are coming from Israel with big fake suppressors installed "permanently" so that they can be imported. There is a set screw with a small weld on top of it but some dealers are drilling out the weld to remove the fake suppressor. The threads are a different pitch than what is standard in the U.S. so there a thread adapters available so that U.S. made suppressors can be used. The guns were originally used by Mossad, Air Marshalls and others and they all have threaded barrels.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Yes, the barrels were threaded for a suppressor.

The importer attached a faux suppressor to the barrel to increase the OAL and get enough points under GCA 1968 to import them into the US. Once they were here the blind pinned faux suppressors were often removed by the FFLs selling them, as it made the pistol a lot more marketable. If the FFL didn't remove it, most of the buyers have removed them. It totally obscures the sights and the steel faux suppressor weighs a full pound, doubling the weight of the pistol. It also prevents the barrel from being removed from the slide for normal cleaning.

The thread size and pitch on these is 1/2 x 20, which is I believe still used in the UK for .22 LR suppressors. You can get a thread protector for them here in the US from a few sources.

If you decide to suppress one, you can also get a 1/2 x 20 to 1/2 x 28 adapter. In the US, 3/8 x 24 used to be the common thread pattern for .22 LR suppressors way back in the day, but 1/2 x 28 is the norm now for both .22 LR and .223, so the adapter will get you in business with minimum fuss.

If mine had looked anywhere close to your's I'd have left it alone as it's not what I would classify as a shooter.

In general, a non factory refinish or restoration will cut the value in half from a collector standpoint. The decision to refinish then depends on how much of the original finish is left and its value as is, versus the value it would have after a refinish.

In my case, the "as is" value wasn't all that high, given that the Suncorite and the underlying finish was almost totally gone - probably as a result of someone else removing the finish to "improve" its looks. As a result, mine was in essence a shooter, rather than a collector piece.

My understanding is that the originals were parkerized during the FTR and then painted with Suncorite over the parked finish - and the remaining traces of finish on mine suggested it had been parkerized.

I debated a restoration in the form of parkerizing the pistol and then painting it with Cerakote - and parkerizing does make a great base for CeraKote - but in the end I decided not to, since I wasn't going to be able to finish it correctly with Suncorite.