Just bought an Ithaca, parkerized, fja on left, crossed cannons on right. Need a barrel bushing and a rear sight. All the ones i can find are blue. Would blue parts have been on a parked gun? Also would the rear sight been high or low profile? Any and all help and comments appreciated.
Quite a few years ago, I bought an entire Ithaca .45 slide assembly, unused and still in the original GI packaging. The slide itself was phosphate finished, but not the barrel, barrel bushing, or rear sight. I now have it on a Colt frame. It fit perfectly, no fitting was needed.
DWalt, a few years ago I passed on a new in packaging Remington Rand complete slide, barrel, bushing, firing pin etc.... $210. I am still kicking myself for that one. I have a like new in box '44 RR, but a spare slide is always a good thing. Especially for those spot heat treated ones back in the WWII production time.
Chuck, I have a first contract Ithaca that has a blue bushing but they were still getting a lot of parts from Colt then. my late war one is all parked. lee
Chuck, I have a first contract Ithaca that has a blue bushing but they were still getting a lot of parts from Colt then. my late war one is all parked. lee
DWalt, a few years ago I passed on a new in packaging Remington Rand complete slide, barrel, bushing, firing pin etc.... $210. I am still kicking myself for that one. I have a like new in box '44 RR, but a spare slide is always a good thing. Especially for those spot heat treated ones back in the WWII production time.
I paid $100 for mine about 15 years ago. And it included everything, barrel, firing pin/spring, and barrel bushing. I think even a recoil spring and thimble, but I am not 100% sure of that. I believe that during WWII, several inches of the muzzle end of the slide was heat treated, along with a few other areas like the slide stop notch. I assume that is true for all manufacturers. WWI slides were not heat treated. I don't know how one reliably dates a WWII slide alone.
Most old GI M1911s will most likely have mixed parts. We stripped dozens of M1911s and put the different parts in containers of the same part. Cleaned, inspected, and re-assembled weapons by reaching in the bins for a need part.
DWalt, I would have a problem dating Colt slides, but I think most of the rest of the 1911a1 makers,RR ,USS&S, Singer were only producing them for the war time effort. I would think any Remington Rand is a war time pistol and parts would be of the same vintage. I think collecting 1911s is an art in it's self.
That much is true, but I was referring to making a more exact dating than just WWII. US&S, RR, and Ithaca .45s were made only during WWII. I believe the U. S. Military made its last .45 M1911A1 purchase in 1945. Most of those in service after that had been rebuilt one or more times for later service in Korea and Vietnam. There was never much effort made to keep original parts together during the rebuild operations, thus a lot of mix and match .45s are out there. I bought an all original parts US&S .45 back in the late 1950s from DCM when they were selling for about $20.
Wartime Colt 1911A1's still had the slide serial numbered to the gun (same number on the receiver) and this was not discontinued until sometime in 1943 at about serial number 1,140,000. The highest serial numbered slide was number 1,137,918 according to Ed Scott Meadows excellent reference work (page 47).
When I was collecting Colts and other WWII 1911 A1's this serial numbered slide was a real tip off when a gun was about to change hands and the receiver number is clear as a bell, then you disassemble the slide to the point under the slide stop and bingo...it may still be Colt, but wrong gun, or later slide (1944 on up). I've seen a $1,000 drop right there on one item like that because everything else is suspect too...so beware.....if you think you have the real thing, all numbers matching, all correct proofs, genuine Coltwood plastic grips, etc. just make sure before you list for sale.
Just saying as usual, good luck with the Ithaca.....mine is the only one I wanted to keep, the Colt and the RR are gone now to fund more S & W's but the Ithaca stays..........just something about it.
Chuck
Some pictures from my original 1943 Ithaca for reference. A quick reference for Ithaca frames is a small cartouche on the left trigger guard. Only Ithacas had these. Several different geometric patterns used. Mine is a cross as seen in picture.
Have a line on a stripped Ithaca frame. Been thinking of building one to go with the slide and getting a RR slide to go with the gun I have now as a project. I have only field stripped 1911s, have never totally disassembled one. My question is how hard is this?
Last edited by Chuck24; 06-13-2017 at 09:23 PM.
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A detail stripping of any 1911 is not that much of a job, I have done it many times. No real tricks are required, very straightforward. YouTube can probably help. Changing the hammer spring in its housing can be a little challenging but is not really difficult. Not often that needs to be done anyway.
During WWII, the different M1911A1 manufacturers were assigned different SN blocks, and these SN blocks are available in reference books and on the internet. So it's fairly easy to determine who made the frame. I believe all (except for Singer) used a phosphate finish.
As others have said, detail disassembly is not that hard, but you do have to be meticulous in the work and pay extreme attention to the small details. Original USGI parts are now next to impossible to get hold of so if you damage a 3 leaf main spring, you'll be searching for a long time, and of course beware of repro parts, and mix meisters.
If you are going to attempt putting an Ithaca back to "as-issued" some of the most important documents I have used during collection, inspection, detail disassembly, etc. are attached to this e-mail. The other one is the official US Army Technical Manual TM 9-1005-211-34, Direct and General Support Maintenance Manual, Pistol, Caliber .45, Automatic, M1911A1. This a 47 page Army publication and again...originals are hard to find and expensive when you do, so PM me if you would like me to e-mail you an Adobe (.pdf) copy.
Some interesting facts about Ithaca 1911A1: Harry Howland was a factory inspector for Ithaca, and in 1943 he invented a stamped trigger called the Yawman trigger, and this trigger was quicker and cheaper to manufacture so the US Ordnance Dept adopted it almost immediately. Colt balked, but the urgency of equipping troops in the filed brought pressure on RR and Colt and they all went to this trigger.
Another neat "feature" of Ithaca's that I've found on quite a few examples during my time, but seldom seen on Colts or RR's is when you come across a truly original, you may see a shiny spot of worn Parkerizing right above the 5th digit of the serial number. This "spot" has been traced to the pistol living most of its duty life in a USGI Model M7 flap holster, and is due to the closure button retainer on the inside of the holster resting against this exact spot when worn on typical web gear.
I was once with five other 1911 collectors and all of our Ithaca's in all sorts of condition and collectability had the spot, yet no Colts or RR's so go figure.....whether fact or fiction it is interesting and if you do see the spot, don't disturb it because other collectors might be looking for it when trading, buying, selling, etc.
The one attachment is a two page spreadsheet taken from an old American Rifleman but is a top drawer spread sheet. If you have access to a color printer somewhere (Kinko's does a good job) have this guy printed on 11" x 17" in color and then laminated. It makes a terrific "disassembly mat" on your gun table while "learning" the detail teardown of the 1911A1.
As I mentioned above, detail disassembly of the 1911A1 is not that hard but I forgot to mention that a absolute must have is the proper gun-smith tools. Hollow ground screwdrivers and a real good decent set of drift punches in assorted sizes is definitely a must have for 1911's
The grip screw bushings that are staked into the frame back in WWII manufacture are a particular item that you have to watch for. The US Army TM describes the staking tool in detail, however some "collectors" just give a loose one a teeny, tiny dab of Loctite Red.....a gigantic NO-NO! You just destroyed any collector value.
Another thing to watch for is because in the 60's 1911a1's could be had for $20 or less as surplus so a lot of guns were modified as shooters experimented with Bomar sights, stippling the front strap, tighter bushings, etc. These things are all visible so no big deal because the gun is no longer collectible in any way, but less visible is the 3 leaf mainspring which if the grip safety leaf is very slightly bent it will defeat the grip safety altogether and this was done by many, many competition shooters. It is not really possible for you to strip this far down if you are looking at buying a 1911, but you will actually feel the difference if the grip safety leaf has been bent at one time and then "bent back again" by someone. The grip safety will feel "loose" and will actually fall toward the trigger when you hold the gun horizontal, so this is another thing to watch for if getting into "collectible" 1911's.
Haven't had my 1943 Ithaca apart in some time but recall mine had HS stamped on one of the legs of the barrel. I believe that HS stood for High Standard who also made barrels for the 1903A3 Smith Corona Springfield rifle. Frank
Haven't had my 1943 Ithaca apart in some time but recall mine had HS stamped on one of the legs of the barrel. I believe that HS stood for High Standard who also made barrels for the 1903A3 Smith Corona Springfield rifle. Frank
Yes - HS is for High Standard barrels. F is for Flannery Bolt Company Barrels.
War Contract 1911A1 magazines can be identified by a letter stamped on the upper toe of the base plate to indicate manufacturer. G-General Shaver Co., S-Scovill, L-Little.
Believe Colt made their own magazines and barrels.
Another Ordnance Mark that is found on some Ithaca frames (not slide) is the flaming bomb stamped in the bottom of the inside curved section where the recoil spring and rod section fit.
Mine has it but you need a magnifying glass to see it well.
VATom is right on the money. My late 1944 Colt was all original and did have all Colt parts. The barrels were identified by a "box C" stamp on the right leg. Literally a stamped C with a box around it. The wartime genuine Colt magazines were stamped either C for Colt on the floorplate top lip, or C-R which was Colt-Risdon, a subcontractor to Colt. Of all the magazines for wartime 1911 A1's the "rarest" (not really that rare but getting impossible to find) are the G (General Shaver Co.). Used to be gun shows had guys with baskets or shoeboxes of mags for $2.00 to $5.00 but most everyone knows this stuff these days. I just saw a G and the guy wanted $200.........don't know if he sold or not.
Of all the magazines for wartime 1911 A1's the "rarest" (not really that rare but getting impossible to find) are the G (General Shaver Co.). Used to be gun shows had guys with baskets or shoeboxes of mags for $2.00 to $5.00 but most everyone knows this stuff these days. I just saw a G and the guy wanted $200.........don't know if he sold or not.
Wow- Didn't know the price on the WWII magazines had gone up. My 1943 Ithaca came with one (don't recall which mark). I later bought two more off GB in 2008 for $35 each. I have all three (G,S,L).
I did replace the springs on all three mags with Wolf springs as I occasionally shoot the Ithaca. Also replaced the recoil and firing pin springs on the Ithaca with Wolf springs (of course I kept all the original springs). Shoots like new!
I also bought some Korean war era NOS GI grips on GB for $35 in 2008 so as not to further wear or damage the original Keyes Fiber Bakelite grips.
I guess these parts have gone up in value also since that time!
VATom, just checked my 1943 Ithaca and it does have the cross right where your does. Years back I did some horse trading with a foreman buddy where I worked. He got a Saur 38H 32 automatic pistol and i got his 1943 Ithaca with a cigar box full of assorted ammo. Been a 45 fan ever since. This was his service pistol and he was a WWII vet. So it has special meaning to me. Used it when I first started shooting steel plate matches. Frank
Most of the Ithacas went to the Army Air Force. They arrived at the staging bases without barrels. the Hi Standard barrels came in another shipment.
Interesting. I think my 1943 many have been an air crew bring back from the war. It came with a complete collection of Winchester rifles that the seller purchased. The only two handguns in the collection were WWII .45s. Clearly shows some holster wear but no other hard wear on it. Probably easier for an officer (pilot, navigator, or bombadier) to bring back a pistol in their personal baggage.
The Air Corps was putting up a lot of Air Crews in 1944 into 1945.
Ithaca 1911a1 questions
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