The other FN "Hi Powers" - FN SFS and FN HP-DA

BB57 · #1 07-04-2017, 11:26 AM

A recent thread on FEG Hi Powers and other affordable Hi Power options got me to thinking about FN Hi Powers - as opposed to Browning Hi Powers.

In the US, most shooters seem to think that "Browning" actually made the Hi Power. That's not the case, Browning is just the importer, and the pistols were (and still are) made by FN. That arrangement goes back to the turn of the 20th century when John M Browning suggested to Winchester that rather than selling a design outright, he instead be paid on a royalty basis. Winchester declined and JMB entered into an agreement with FN. Browning Arms company wasn't founded until a year after JMB's death, and nearly all the arms marketed by Browning were manufactured by other companies, such as FN, and Miroku. Currently, Browning is a subsidiary of FN Herstal.

In the past, Browning has been the exclusive importer of many of the arms produced, however when Browning declined to import a particular model, FN would import it to the US with the FN banner roll marked on the firearm. The irony here is that despite FN being the manufacturer, and Browning being just the importer/marketer for the firearms, Browning did that job very well as "Browning" firearms are regarded as the "real" firearms, whole the FN marked examples are not.

The advantage for the buyer is that FN marked Hi Powers can be had for a lot less than a Browning marked Hi Power, even when they are in identical configurations.

However, there are other configurations that sell for even less:

FN SFS Hi Power

A case in point is this particular FN SFS Hi Power that uses the "Safety Fast Shooting" system, imported by FN in the late 1990s. The SFS system is a modernized, simplified and much more durable version of FN's "Fast Action" system. In both cases, the pistol uses a two piece hammer that is cocked in the normal manner, but then pressed forward against a hammer block to put the pistol on safe. When the hammer is pressed forward, the safety lever pops up into the safe position. Though the top of the hammer is now down, it is still cocked and locked and in Condition 1. When the safety lever is depressed, the hammer snaps back into the raised position and the pistol is now in Condition 0. It's a great system for concealed carry, and it's also a good option for open carry, where the public otherwise gets nervous at the sight of a cocked hammer.

FN developed the SFS and submitted it along side it's Browning Hi Power BDA pistol for the 1984 XM-9 trials, but the SFS design was rejected as it was not a double action design. FN put it into civilian production in the early 1990s but civilian sales were not much more successful, as despite the systems merits, it just never caught on. Part of this was the change in the design to the SFS system, as Hi Power fans tend to like them as they've always been, but much of it was the "FN" rather than "Browning" label.

Around 2002-2003 the pistols started showing up at wholesalers in large quantities and they sold new in the box for around $350-$375 - about half the price of a Browning Hi Power at the time.

Even if you didn't like the SFS system, at the price you could buy them for, you could afford to buy and install standard BHP hammer, sear, safety, and slide release lever and be way ahead money wise. That was actually my plan, but I found I really liked the SFS system, particularly for concealed carry. In fact, I converted another Hi Power to SFS configuration using the SFS kit from Cylinder and Slide - which still has the original FN made SFS parts.

They still sell for a lot less than a standard configuration BHP - when you can find them, as they are not very common, as not all that many were imported, and I have no doubt some of those were converted to the regular Hi Power configuration.

FN HP-DA

FN's Hi Power BDA wasn't successful in the XM9 trials, which is too bad as in my opinion it was much better pistol than the Beretta for general issue (smaller, better trigger reach, easier to shoot well, etc).

FN had however also introduced the pistol as the HP-DA in 1983 to the civilian market just prior to the XM-9 pistol trials and produced them until 1987. They didn't sell well in part due to less than stellar trigger pull.

In 1990, FN re-introduced them with a redesigned DA trigger in both the standard DA de-cocker equipped version and in a bobbed hammer DA Only version. FN called them the Browning BDA9 and BDAO in the US, and the FN HP-DA and HP-DAO in Europe.

FN offered them in medium and compact versions as well for commercial sales, and the compact versions are rarely encountered. Unfortunately, in the US, they arrived just in time for the high capacity magazine bans of the early 1990s, and the lack of significant numbers of "pre-ban" high capacity magazines put them at a serious disadvantage to older designs and/or designs using common magazines. These pistols also didn't see much military success, with Finland being the only country to adopt the FN HP-DA as its service pistol.

The DA trigger on my post 1990 FN-HP is excellent, and very light by DA standards. It's almost a two stage trigger with a very light initial pull with a very abrupt stacking in the last 1/5 or so of the pull. However, the entire pull is very smooth over all, allowing a very quick and smooth pull when shooting at speed, or a very easy to stage DA rigger pull when accuracy matters on the first shot. Follow up shots are SA, with a clean pull and a nice, short re-set. The HP-DA never had a magazine safety, so the gritty feel from that is not present.

The trigger reach is also quite short by DA standards, particularly when de-cocked. If your hand fits the Hi Power well, and/or you have issues reaching DA triggers on most medium or large frame pistols, this is a DA pistol that will work well for you.

Unlike the SFS Hi Power, where the only difference between it and the standard Mk III Hi Power is the hammer, sear, safety, and slide release lever, parts commonality between the FN HP-DA and the Hi Power is almost non existent. The HP-DA was also restyled externally with a Sig Sauer looking trigger guard and a more angular treatment to the front of the slide. Mechanically, it's a Hi Power in name only, but it still very much has the feel and handling of a Hi Power.

The major downside with the FN HP-DA is the unique magazine that can be hard to find, and the limited 10 round capacity, given that the earlier 14 round magazines are very hard to find. First runner up is the 1980s style grip with the thumb rests on each side. It wouldn't be bad, except the thumb rest on the left grip panel tends to block access to the magazine release, requiring a shift in grip to drop the magazine. So far, replacement grips have proven impossible to find, and it's the only thing preventing the HP-DA from being my favorite pistol. A minor issue is that the enlarged trigger guard prevents using a Hi Power holster. However, it fits the holster for a Glock 17 just fine.

Still, despite the magazine and grip inconveniences, it's a fun pistol to shoot and is a very interesting attempt at evolution/modernization of the Hi Power to move it forward into the DA age. They are also comparative bargains, selling for around $500-$600 in excellent condition when they show up.

Both pistols share the same hammer profile, which eliminated the prior issues that the Hi Power had with hammer bite.

The FN HP-DA and FN SFS Hi Power share the same finish - a very durable epoxy paint on top of a parkerized finish. The polish and finish won't win beauty contests on either pistol, but it is very durable and does an excellent job of preventing corrosion. My SFS was a daily carry pistol for nearly 10 years and shows very little wear.

In the pictures below the SFS is cocked and locked, and the HP-DA is de-cocked.

JohnRippert · #2 07-04-2017, 01:44 PM

I saw a HP-DA at the last gunshow I went to. The price looked very fair but I just don't feel the love for them that I do with the classic HP.

ETA: Actually, I think LVSteve's example below is what I saw, now that I think on it a bit.

LVSteve · #3 07-04-2017, 02:30 PM

Then came the Browning BDM. They have quite a cult following now.

WVSig · #4 07-04-2017, 07:29 PM

Good info BB57 I would add a few things for clarification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB57

A recent thread on FEG Hi Powers and other affordable Hi Power options got me to thinking about FN Hi Powers - as opposed to Browning Hi Powers.

In the US, most shooters seem to think that "Browning" actually made the Hi Power. That's not the case, Browning is just the importer, and the pistols were (and still are) made by FN. That arrangement goes back to the turn of the 20th century when John M Browning suggested to Winchester that rather than selling a design outright, he instead be paid on a royalty basis. Winchester declined and JMB entered into an agreement with FN. Browning Arms company wasn't founded until a year after JMB's death, and nearly all the arms marketed by Browning were manufactured by other companies, such as FN, and Miroku. Currently, Browning is a subsidiary of FN Herstal.

In the past, Browning has been the exclusive importer of many of the arms produced, however when Browning declined to import a particular model, FN would import it to the US with the FN banner roll marked on the firearm. The irony here is that despite FN being the manufacturer, and Browning being just the importer/marketer for the firearms, Browning did that job very well as "Browning" firearms are regarded as the "real" firearms, whole the FN marked examples are not.

The advantage for the buyer is that FN marked Hi Powers can be had for a lot less than a Browning marked Hi Power, even when they are in identical configurations.

Most people who are fans of the BHP know that they have always been made by FN Herstal. I agree some BHP novices make this mistake but it is generally known within the firearms world that Browning does not make any guns. FN Herstal paid for the development and produced the pistol we know as the BHP from day one. They are the only pistol to have served as an issued sidearm on both sides of WWII because the Nazis took over the factory in Herstal which is near Liège.

I would also add that the gun we know and shoot today as the Browning Hi Power was not designed by JMB. He designed the Grande Rendement which was the foundation that Dieudonné Joseph Saive used to develop what we call the BHP.

This is the last pistol JMB designed.

The FN rollmarked guns you are referring to were produced and brought in with FN rollmarks with a Columbia, SC or Fredericksburg, VA address. They were produced by FN to support their attempts to the sell the BHP to LEO and the US Army in the US market. The SFS system you reference below was a huge part of that push as you have stated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB57

However, there are other configurations that sell for even less:

FN SFS Hi Power

A case in point is this particular FN SFS Hi Power that uses the "Safety Fast Shooting" system, imported by FN in the late 1990s. The SFS system is a modernized, simplified and much more durable version of FN's "Fast Action" system. In both cases, the pistol uses a two piece hammer that is cocked in the normal manner, but then pressed forward against a hammer block to put the pistol on safe. When the hammer is pressed forward, the safety lever pops up into the safe position. Though the top of the hammer is now down, it is still cocked and locked and in Condition 1. When the safety lever is depressed, the hammer snaps back into the raised position and the pistol is now in Condition 0. It's a great system for concealed carry, and it's also a good option for open carry, where the public otherwise gets nervous at the sight of a cocked hammer.

FN developed the SFS and submitted it along side it's Browning Hi Power BDA pistol for the 1984 XM-9 trials, but the SFS design was rejected as it was not a double action design. FN put it into civilian production in the early 1990s but civilian sales were not much more successful, as despite the systems merits, it just never caught on. Part of this was the change in the design to the SFS system, as Hi Power fans tend to like them as they've always been, but much of it was the "FN" rather than "Browning" label.

Around 2002-2003 the pistols started showing up at wholesalers in large quantities and they sold new in the box for around $350-$375 - about half the price of a Browning Hi Power at the time.

Even if you didn't like the SFS system, at the price you could buy them for, you could afford to buy and install standard BHP hammer, sear, safety, and slide release lever and be way ahead money wise. That was actually my plan, but I found I really liked the SFS system, particularly for concealed carry. In fact, I converted another Hi Power to SFS configuration using the SFS kit from Cylinder and Slide - which still has the original FN made SFS parts.

They still sell for a lot less than a standard configuration BHP - when you can find them, as they are not very common, as not all that many were imported, and I have no doubt some of those were converted to the regular Hi Power configuration.

The SFS system was designed by Bill Laughridge, founder of Cylinder & Slide. It works in both BHPs and Colt 1911 80 series pistols. Safety Fast Shooting System

It is a love it or hate it design. Lots of people like it I personally think it is a solution looking for a problem. It really was developed because the Army and LEOs in the US at the time were used to DA/SA or DAO guns. This was a way to market a SA to those markets and it fail miserably. I cannot think of a single organization off the top of my head that adopted the SFS BHP. They have their following and clearly you like them. I know a few die hard BHP guys that love the SFS it just have never been my cup of tea.

You are right in that you can remove the SFS parts and replace them with standard BHP parts. There was a time that these guns and the standard SA guns were dumped to places like CDNN and were sold in the $300-$400 range NIB. SFS guns were the last to go and were the most heavily discounted. These days those number do not hold true. US commercial rollmarked BHPs go for pretty much the same $$ as Browning Rollmarked guns. In fact many people pay a premium for them to use as base guns for custom work because they are MKIII guns which will last longer but do not have the serial number on the front of the grip strap so they can be checkered or stippled without leaving a border or having the serial number relocated.

You see a lot less of these guns on the market and as a general rule they are no longer cheaper than the Browning rollmark in my experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB57

FN HP-DA

FN's Hi Power BDA wasn't successful in the XM9 trials, which is too bad as in my opinion it was much better pistol than the Beretta for general issue (smaller, better trigger reach, easier to shoot well, etc).

FN had however also introduced the pistol as the HP-DA in 1983 to the civilian market just prior to the XM-9 pistol trials and produced them until 1987. They didn't sell well in part due to less than stellar trigger pull.

In 1990, FN re-introduced them with a redesigned DA trigger in both the standard DA de-cocker equipped version and in a bobbed hammer DA Only version. FN called them the Browning BDA9 and BDAO in the US, and the FN HP-DA and HP-DAO in Europe.

FN offered them in medium and compact versions as well for commercial sales, and the compact versions are rarely encountered. Unfortunately, in the US, they arrived just in time for the high capacity magazine bans of the early 1990s, and the lack of significant numbers of "pre-ban" high capacity magazines put them at a serious disadvantage to older designs and/or designs using common magazines. These pistols also didn't see much military success, with Finland being the only country to adopt the FN HP-DA as its service pistol.

The DA trigger on my post 1990 FN-HP is excellent, and very light by DA standards. It's almost a two stage trigger with a very light initial pull with a very abrupt stacking in the last 1/5 or so of the pull. However, the entire pull is very smooth over all, allowing a very quick and smooth pull when shooting at speed, or a very easy to stage DA rigger pull when accuracy matters on the first shot. Follow up shots are SA, with a clean pull and a nice, short re-set. The HP-DA never had a magazine safety, so the gritty feel from that is not present.

The trigger reach is also quite short by DA standards, particularly when de-cocked. If your hand fits the Hi Power well, and/or you have issues reaching DA triggers on most medium or large frame pistols, this is a DA pistol that will work well for you.

Unlike the SFS Hi Power, where the only difference between it and the standard Mk III Hi Power is the hammer, sear, safety, and slide release lever, parts commonality between the FN HP-DA and the Hi Power is almost non existent. The HP-DA was also restyled externally with a Sig Sauer looking trigger guard and a more angular treatment to the front of the slide. Mechanically, it's a Hi Power in name only, but it still very much has the feel and handling of a Hi Power.

The major downside with the FN HP-DA is the unique magazine that can be hard to find, and the limited 10 round capacity, given that the earlier 14 round magazines are very hard to find. First runner up is the 1980s style grip with the thumb rests on each side. It wouldn't be bad, except the thumb rest on the left grip panel tends to block access to the magazine release, requiring a shift in grip to drop the magazine. So far, replacement grips have proven impossible to find, and it's the only thing preventing the HP-DA from being my favorite pistol. A minor issue is that the enlarged trigger guard prevents using a Hi Power holster. However, it fits the holster for a Glock 17 just fine.

Still, despite the magazine and grip inconveniences, it's a fun pistol to shoot and is a very interesting attempt at evolution/modernization of the Hi Power to move it forward into the DA age. They are also comparative bargains, selling for around $500-$600 in excellent condition when they show up.

The DA FN Hi Powers were a complete failure. They were again another attempt by FN to capture some of the LEO market in the US but Glock had already gained a foothold on that market by the time they were introduced. S&W Gen 2 and Gen 3 semi-autos were also heavily at play during that time. The DA o BHP had ZERO advantages S&W offerings which dominate those days. With the Gen 2 Glock 17 on its way the DA BHP was simply too late. They were heavier with less capacity and a worse trigger IMHO. Polymer fantastic plastic was destined to rule the LEO market by the 1990s.

The incompatibility with other BHP variants did not help their cause in the commercial market. Most of those who loved the SA configuration of the BHP saw no advantage to a DA version of the gun so it had little appeal to the BHP faithful. Again a classic case of FN having a solution looking for a problem. This design did nothing to improve the BHP design or function it was purely invented to meet contract requirements and thankfully meet a quick and quiet death.

The biggest killer of the BDA/FN-DA was the Glock. Even the redesigned trigger was not great. I do not even really consider it a BHP because it only shares the appearance of the traditional BHP and very little of its mechanical lineage or function.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB57

Both pistols share the same hammer profile, which eliminated the prior issues that the Hi Power had with hammer bite.

The FN HP-DA and FN SFS Hi Power share the same finish - a very durable epoxy paint on top of a parkerized finish. The polish and finish won't win beauty contests on either pistol, but it is very durable and does an excellent job of preventing corrosion. My SFS was a daily carry pistol for nearly 10 years and shows very little wear.

In the pictures below the SFS is cocked and locked, and the HP-DA is de-cocked.

The FN rollmarked BHPs were offered in Epoxy as well as polished blue finishes. Some were even offered with older sight configurations. FN is well known for using surplus spare parts to complete guns regardless of their matching the "current" configuration.

You clearly are a fan of the BHP and like the SFS. I do not mean to disparage the design but for me it offers me nothing that the standard BHP doesn't already offer except for another mechanical part which can fail. I am glad to see that some people like it. I have almost bought one a few times over the years just to have one on the collection but I have always passed in favor of a classic SA BHP. Again nice write up thanks for taking the time.

Fuch · #5 07-05-2017, 12:11 PM

Here is my Browning GP "silver chrome" made here in Belgium in Herstal

Hébergé par Imagesia.com

Fuch from belgium

petepeterson · #6 07-05-2017, 12:23 PM

Thanks for the lesson on the SFS. Very interesting. I suppose if I ran into one....well, you know...

The DA "Hi-Powers" always horrified me for some reason. Maybe because I always found the HP to be so appealing since I was a young lad.

BB57 · #7 07-05-2017, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petepeterson

Thanks for the lesson on the SFS. Very interesting. I suppose if I ran into one....well, you know...

The DA "Hi-Powers" always horrified me for some reason. Maybe because I always found the HP to be so appealing since I was a young lad.

That's one of the reasons the HP-DA didn't sell well. People who were interested in the Hi Power wanted a Hi Power, and people who wanted a new DA pistol usually bought something else.

----

Another advantage of the SFS is that it solves the problem of the mushy Hi Power safety.

Drm50 · #8 07-05-2017, 10:54 PM

I'm not a CF auto pistol shooter, I went through that phase 40yrs
ago. Brn HP was always my favorite before they started assem.
in Portugal. I have one HP its FN and is a model with extended
barrel and adjustable sights. Ugly black finish and Pacmeyr grips.
Back sight looks like it is off a BB gun. Having said that it's the
most accurate 9mm I've ever shot, that's why I still got it. I will
add that I've never shot a SIG 210 which is suppose to be the
best.

Moo Moo · #9 07-06-2017, 01:05 AM

Great info.

I have seen quite a few images (both on-line and in magazine articles) from the USA indicating your HP's seem to be made in Belgium but assembled in Portugal. The HP's we get imported into Australia are all straight out Belgium made and assembled pistols. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but do you know a reason for this?

WVSig · #10 07-06-2017, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moo Moo

Great info.

I have seen quite a few images (both on-line and in magazine articles) from the USA indicating your HP's seem to be made in Belgium but assembled in Portugal. The HP's we get imported into Australia are all straight out Belgium made and assembled pistols. I don't mean to hijack the thread, but do you know a reason for this?

All BHPs including the FN rollmarked guns are assembled in Portugal using parts made in Belgium. Browning rollmarked guns say "Assembled in Portugal" for an undisclosed reason. The urban/internet myth is that FN Herstal or Browning misinterpreted the US import law and believe the rollmarked was necessary. They made the changes and never changed it back.

FN Herstal has been making guns in Portugal since it opened the Viana, Portugal assembly plant in 1973. FN started assembly of "sporting arms" there shortly thereafter. They started with the BAR sporting rifle. Vanderlinden's BHP book states BHP production moved in 1980 but he then states they were rollmarked "Assembled in Portugal" in 1988 but I have read complelling arguements that it happened well before that. The plant was opened or bought by FN in 1972-1973. FN stated in their business plans of that time they wanted to move finally assembly of the BHP to Portugal to save on labor. It is highly unlikely that it took them over 6 years to do that considering they were already producing the BAR there.

Either way all BHPs reguardless of rollmarked have been assembled in Portugal since around 1975-1980. Do not over pay in the US for an all "Belgium" gun produced after 1980. The FN rollmarked guns the OP references were advertised by people like CDNN who sold a ton of them dirt cheap as "all Belgium"guns after FN liquidated them to wholesalers. Some people get really hung up on the Portugal thing but having shot BHPs made in the 1950s - current I personally don't sweat it and just get the gun in the best condition or configuration I can.

Rock185 · #11 07-06-2017, 04:38 PM

Moo Moo. I agree with WVSig. As an example, I've had some Hi Powers, and still have one, that make no mention of "Assembled in Portugal" on the gun. But all the serial numbered factory boxes do state, "Assembled in Portugal". FWIW, My Browning and FN marked Hi Powers have been roll marked in a variety of ways since my first back in the '60s. I believe that much of the variation in roll marks, serial numbering, etc. is due to firearms law in the various countries the Hi Power was intended for......

Moo Moo · #12 07-06-2017, 05:46 PM

Thanks for the info guys. I never knew that. Just another way Australian Shooters seem to get over-charged for the same firearm product.

WVSig · #13 07-06-2017, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moo Moo

Thanks for the info guys. I never knew that. Just another way Australian Shooters seem to get over-charged for the same firearm product.

Its not just down there it happens in the US to. I have been offered "all Belgium" BHPs at a premium more times than I can count.

sub-moa · #14 07-06-2017, 09:28 PM

Glad to see BB57 started this...BHP based, thread...thanks

.

FWIW, WVSig and Rock both are BHP guys, they know of what they speak

.....

max · #15 07-07-2017, 09:07 AM

Massad Ayoob is reporting in this month's AH that "The company was discontinuing their High Power pistol." I don't know if FN will continue to manufacture the pistol with their name or not.

WVSig · #16 07-07-2017, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max

Massad Ayoob is reporting in this month's AH that "The company was discontinuing their High Power pistol." I don't know if FN will continue to manufacture the pistol with their name or not.

I don't read American Handgunner or pay much attention to Ayoob these days but there has been a lot of talk over the years about the BHP being discontinued. The last thing I read was that the VP of sales at Browning told a member over on the Browning Owners Forum that the BHP will be in the catalog for 2017. It will be reviewed and depending on sales it could be removed from the catalog for 2018. This is on Browning's end not FNs.

Nothing has been determined yet. Every few years this topic makes the rounds. It has not happened yet but that does not mean it will not in the future. As far as FN ceasing production that it another topic which to my knowledge has not been addresses.

In the end there are so many BHPs in the market right now that I do not see it really effecting the market long term. There might be a bump in sales of NIB but I think the used market, which is the best place to buy IMHO, will stay relatively the same.

I will believe it when I see it because if Browning removes the BHP from their pistol lineup they pretty much are out of the pistol market besides the Buckmark and the mini 1911s. I guess they could try to brand the FN tactical plastic like they did in the past with the Browning Pro which was really just a FNP with different rollmarks but with the FNX sales being sort of lack luster I doubt that they would go that route. Time will tell.

ISCS Yoda · #17 07-07-2017, 03:04 PM

I have two Hi-Power type guns, one a Browning and one an Israeli Kareen. The Browning was touted as a "Belgian model" but it is clearly marked that it was assembled in Portugal. I didn't pay an overwhelming price for it, no trick rip off price, etc., just a reasonable market price for a BHP. Under $600 two years ago, I think. Definitely under $700.

Then a few months ago some imported Kareens came on the market and I figured a BHP for under $300 was a good plan. After clean up it had an amazingly pristine bore. Great shooter; feels exactly like a normal BHP but was probably made by FEG or, maybe, some pats are FEG and others Israeli.

Hmmm....I wrote this post for a reason. Now I cannot recall my point! Gettin' old ain't fer sissies...!!

Seriously, I had a point and it derailed. Oh, well.....

BB57 · #18 07-07-2017, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

Then a few months ago some imported Kareens came on the market and I figured a BHP for under $300 was a good plan. After clean up it had an amazingly pristine bore. Great shooter; feels exactly like a normal BHP but was probably made by FEG or, maybe, some pats are FEG and others Israeli.

Israel acquired surplus Hi Powers after WWII, bought Hi Powers directly from FN, and bought FEG P9 pistols (excellent copies of the pre-Mk II Hi Power with 100% parts interchangeability) directly from FEG. FEG also sold P9 pistols with FN roll marks to a couple middle eastern countries that were under an arms embargo - thus the FN markings to make it less obvious they were running guns to those countries. Some of these "counterfeit" Hi Powers also found their way into Israeli hands - probably as battlefield pickups and capture weapons.

Israel also negotiated with FEG to have FEG supply P9 pistols as parts that were then finished and assembled in Israel, and these were given the "Kareen" roll marking.

So if you've got a Kareen, it's a P9 pistol that is finished and assembled in Israel using FEG supplied parts.

"Hi Power" pistols from all of the above sources have been coming in with the recent Israeli surplus "Hi Powers".

----

FEG made the P9, the 1st generation P9M and the 2nd generation P9M in both military and civilian formats. The military pistols were parked or bead blasted and blued, while the commercial pistols were very nicely polished. The P9 was a very authentic (but unlicensed) pre-Mk I Hi Power clone with 100% parts interchangeability.

The 1st Gen P9M deleted the half moon shaped slide release lever and used a 1911 style release lever instead, with a commensurately smaller slide stop cut in the slide. The 1st Gen P9M also used larger 3 dot sights and an extended safety lever, but it was otherwise a Hi Power copy, and with the exception of the slide and slide release lever, the parts are fully interchangeable.

The 2nd Generation P9M looks like a Hi Power but isn't It uses an S&W style locking system and has much less parts interchangeability, although the magazines still interchange.

All of them were sold as the "PJK-9HP" by KBI, and as the "P9M" by TGI, which makes the whole thing very confusing.

FEG supplied pistols with both spur and ring hammers, depending on customer preference for the military contract pistols, and pretty much put whatever they had on hand on the commercial pistols, although most seem to have a ring hammer. Similarly, they are found with both wood and plastic grips.

This is one of my FEGs and it's a commercial P9 assembled for KBI who imported it, but with the larger 3 dots sights and extended safety of the 1st Gen P9M. As you can see the finish is quite good.

KBI also ordered parts from FEG for assembly in the US, and KBI sold these under their slightly more upscale Charles Daly banner as the "Charles Daly Hi Power. The first 500 were assembled by Dan Wesson and have an "HP" serial number prefix. The balance of the pistols were assembled by Magnum Research and have an "HPM" prefix. The Dan Wesson assembled pistols had the slides milled for Hi Power pattern Novak sights, while the Magnum Research pistols had the slides milled for 1911 pattern Novak sights, and with the exception of the firing pin retaining plate being modified to fit the Novak slide cut, they are a very faithful Pre-Mk I Hi Power copy. I had a chance to buy one new in the box back when they were being imported but I passed on it, as I didn't know much about it at the time. I kick myself for that now as only about 3000 of them were ever assembled.

pjk9hp · #19 07-29-2017, 07:16 AM

[QUOTE=WVSig;139654730]Good info BB57 I would add a few things for clarification.

The SFS system was designed by Bill Laughridge, founder of Cylinder & Slide. It works in both BHPs and Colt 1911 80 series pistols. Safety Fast Shooting System

The SFS was not designed by Bill Laughridge. SFS originated from FN Herstal (patents filed late '70s and published early '80s. See patents here:

1. French:
Patent EP0013583B1 - Pistolet - Google Patents
docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/f3f30f500b75860109fe/EP0013583B1.pdf
docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/ef5018ef699027267647/EP0013583A1.pdf

2. English:
Patent EP0013583A1 - Pistol - Google Patents
Patent US4312263 - Pistol - Google Patents
docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US4312263.pdf

3. Another patent which refer to the ones indicated above:
patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/39/34/e6/bd9bc3add6b7ba/US6539658.pdf

Regards....

S&WshooterFIN · #20 11-28-2019, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB57

A

FN HP-DA

These pistols also didn't see much military success, with Finland being the only country to adopt the FN HP-DA as its service pistol.

Finnish Defence Force / Pistol M80

Gene L · #21 11-28-2019, 05:14 PM

I think the Buckmark is made in Canada. Browning never made a gun in America that I'm aware of.

Kurusu · #22 11-28-2019, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drm50

I'm not a CF auto pistol shooter, I went through that phase 40yrs
ago. Brn HP was always my favorite before they started assem.
in Portugal. I have one HP its FN and is a model with extended
barrel and adjustable sights. Ugly black finish and Pacmeyr grips.
Back sight looks like it is off a BB gun. Having said that it's the
most accurate 9mm I've ever shot, that's why I still got it. I will
add that I've never shot a SIG 210 which is suppose to be the
best.

Have you ever shot a Luger? The Sig 210 is supposed to be equivalent in accuracy. And I think it is having one too.

reccpd101 · #23 11-28-2019, 05:47 PM

BB57,

Thanks for the info. I love my BPM Charles Daly.

Kurusu · #24 11-28-2019, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

I have two Hi-Power type guns, one a Browning and one an Israeli Kareen. The Browning was touted as a "Belgian model" but it is clearly marked that it was assembled in Portugal. I didn't pay an overwhelming price for it, no trick rip off price, etc., just a reasonable market price for a BHP. Under $600 two years ago, I think. Definitely under $700.

Then a few months ago some imported Kareens came on the market and I figured a BHP for under $300 was a good plan. After clean up it had an amazingly pristine bore. Great shooter; feels exactly like a normal BHP but was probably made by FEG or, maybe, some pats are FEG and others Israeli.

Hmmm....I wrote this post for a reason. Now I cannot recall my point! Gettin' old ain't fer sissies...!!

Seriously, I had a point and it derailed. Oh, well.....

Just forget the "Assembled in Portugal" thing. If they said assembled in EU you problably wouldn't bat an eye.

And from the 80s on those that say FN Herstal instead of Browning. Were also assembled in Portugal, just don't have it written on the slide.

Maybe a few were really assembled in Belgium, but that would be a "PR thing" IMHO.

leonardocarrillo · #25 11-28-2019, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurusu

Have you ever shot a Luger? The Sig 210 is supposed to be equivalent in accuracy. And I think it is having one too.

YouTube

Hi Mario, I have no doubt that Parabellum was made for you, good aim friend.

Kurusu · #26 11-28-2019, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leonardocarrillo

Hi Mario, I have no doubt that Parabellum was made for you, good aim friend.

Hi Leonardo, you will be surprized then, but I personally know two persons here that shoot it better than me. And at least another three that I consider on par, I have beatten them. And they have beatten me.