Important Note: The Grant Cunningham extolls the features of the Korth (distributed by Nighthawk made by Korth - yes that Nighthawk) revolver, he works for neither Korth or Nighthawk. Suggested retail for Mongoose with 4" barrel: $3,499.

Particularly interesting are his comments about what it would cost in 2016 to manufacture a Colt Python.

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OK, it is expensive to make, but what does it do that other handguns cannot do?

I had the opportunity to handle one last year when Nighthawk/Korth showed up at at one of the shooting stations, The action is like ice on ice. The owner of Korth was explaining to me the inner workings and the process to make the barrel. They don't skimp on anything. If you are looking for a $3500+ revolver to shoot (which I'm not) Korth would be the ticket)

I'm sure that it is worth what someone is willing to pay for. I am also sure that they are well fitted, have great parts, and are without flaw.

That being said, I can take a LNIB P&R Smith of a popular model for 1/5th to 1/3rd of the price and spend an hour doing a thorough trigger job and cleaning/lubing ($3.50 parts for a 13lb Wolff rebound spring). My result is a sweet shooting gun with a 8-9lb double action pull and a 2-3lb single action pull and will pop primers consistently. I might not be Nighthawk gunsmith worthy or capable, but I have been blessed with enough of an ability to make a S&W feel like butter.

Plus, I just like the "soul" that the older Smiths have as holding one is a link to a time where we weren't surrounded by insanity.

Your money and desires however, and thank God we still have the freedom to pursue our own tastes.

The new Korth revolvers from Lollar are CNC machined, with minimal hand fitting.

One of the advantages of the Korth double action is in the roller bearing on top of the trigger that can be changed to give different, yet very repeatable stacking. Extraction of spent cases is super smooth since the chamber surfaces are smoothened by pushing a steel bearing in and out, compressing the surfaces. The quality and fit is still a whole lot better than any gun from the Performance Center, and comparable to very early Colt Pythons and Registered Magnums.

I collect Korths from Ratzeburg and personally do not see a price tag of $3,500+ justified for a CNC machined revolver - but then I wouldn't want to own any revolver with a rail at a heavily discounted price.

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Respectfully , I think this question is like asking, what will a Rolex do that a Seiko won't ?

There always has been a market for what many consider the best of the best. I think it's no coincidence that this revolver was named after the animal that kills snakes.

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S&WHF 483 , S&WCA 1699

The guy in the video doesn't even know that K frame and L frame guns have the same grip frame.

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My sgntr is mor thn 30 chrctrs

I know what CNC machining can deliver and was in both Korth factories, I am disputing the value of the finished product that is made on machinery with less cost than hand fitting. Korth is owned by a company that produces high-end precision parts for the automotive industry.

Unfortunately, there are a couple of glitches. The Hogues are the only grips that will fit on the new revolvers, since the main spring is not allowing a regular screw for S&W grips to go through. Nill has in the meantime come up with wooden grips, at their usual price.


Having handled and shot both, I like the old revolvers much better.

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Exactly! I'll take the Seiko, thank you. I played with the various models at SHOT. Nice, but not $3,500 nice. ymmv

He is fairly ignorant about the revolvers and the 9mm isn't THE standard cartridge in Germany when it comes to revolvers. Germany's largest shooting association, the DSB, with about 1.4 million members has revolver competitions only in typical revolver cartridges, like .357 Magnum and .44 Rem Magnum. I have one 9mm conversion cylinder and ejection sucks, big time.

I had tried to explain the ATF import procedure and point system to the CEO of Korth when he had told me about the new Airmarshall and had pointed out that it is not importable. He did not believe me but you will not see the gun in the U.S. until Nighthawk assembles it .

In the meantime, the parts for it are on display in the factory.

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I agree he phrased that poorly, but Grant Cunningham certainly knows K and L frame guns use the same grips. I own his books on revolvers and I know he mentions this at least once when discussing grip/frame sizes.

WOW ! Beautiful collection andyd

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John

Thanks. Some of those are among my best shooters, standing up to my cherished S&W revolvers and other premium handguns, like my Swiss P210s. I shoot those things and there isn't a week that one of my Korths isn't put to the test at the range.

As far as an effective tool, probably nothing. But the same question can be asked of a Rolls Royce, what does it do that a Chevy Impala can't?

I went by Franklin guns a second time this morning and spent a half an hour with the Mongoose. As much as my respect for Grant Cunningham got me close to a purchase, I just did not see the Korth weapon, as amazing as it is, as 3.5 times better than my PC 586 L-Comp.

At $2,499 I would buy it. But at $3,499, it is going to take a little more time for me to either reason or rationalize the last thousand dollars. :-)

I was surprised to hear a conversion cylinder bumps up the price another grand. That's a lot of dough for a mere cylinder.

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SWHF #448

Arguably the best shotgun made today is one from Fabbri in Italy. They make every single part in-house, including screws and springs. They were also at the forefront for using CNC and similar equipment years ago. Most folks use soft or silver solder to join their barrels; Fabbri uses cold laser welding so there's no heat distortion.

Point being, today's special equipment is capable of some amazing tolerances and functions.

I love when you opine about the Korths, as I can tell your a serious enthusiast who studies and becomes proficient in the areas of hobby that interest you most. Like a true enthusiast should. Thus, making your comments and advice credible and actually hold weight.

I have no doubt the new Korths are a finely made firearm, but $3500 is getting up there for what it is. I would take that money and find nice a Ratze Korth from the '60s or '70s. Those Korths, and certain Reg.Mags, would be the two guns I put on par with my Pythons. Earlier Pythons, not the junk made during peak production of the late '70s into the '80s strike years. I would love to have an old 3" Ratze Korth, if they made 3".

Do the Ratze Korths have the same type of "cylinder" mainspring that the new ones have? I never had the chance to look inside an old Korth, but my "engineerical" mind would love to see how they tick though.

Must be why I drive Fords and GMCs, I think in terms of good enough.

I watched the video several times and I have seen and handled Korth's several times over the years and still can't see the justification in paying that kind of money for a gun that shoots no better than a tuned 27 or a 19.

I can't justify spending that much on one gun. I could buy it but I'm frugal. My older ruger security sixes are awesome. Even my Redhawk in 357mag. I wish I never traded in my Python.

Rick, why stop short? Go all the way with your decision.
Timex-Kia

It's certainly more than I plan to spend on a revolver anytime soon. But I'd be willing to pay more than S&Ws current prices for a cylinder that's so easy to swap out (and a return to forged steel components).

Wow! $3500 Guess my CS-9 and my Seiko will have to do also.

[QUOTE=Andyd;139667770]The new Korth revolvers from Lollar are CNC machined, with minimal hand fitting.

CNC machines Mim parts. I wonder how many are really hand fitted. Is it bragging rights or really worth it.

Too many adjustments, how many really use them. It would probably confuse most.

My $12 fishing rod and $15 dollar bubble pack Walmart reel caught a 10lb large mouth bass. While the bass fishermen and pros say I need a better rod setup. Do I really? The state record is 12lbs 14ozs. I'm close. I seen bigger fish than 10lbs. I've lost them too. Will a $300 rod catch them or catch my wallet?

If a Python made and hand fit like in the old days, today, would be worth $5000, what would an S&W built to 1960s quality be worth????

Did I hear that right? The Korth has extreme fitting and features to boot but 'only' cost's $3500.

In my mind a such a Python would be worth about $3000 and the S&W somewhat less, only because Colts have always been a little more expensive.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

The Korth in the video was compared to an L frame as similar size. Here are a couple of L frame guns that would be a good comparison:

an early 681 (this one for the NYSP):


a CS-1 (really just a fancy 686):


an early Colt 357 (they dolled these up to make the Python). I prefer the .357's ergonomics over the Python, but you can substitute a Python if that scratches your itch:


I would find it very difficult to trade in all 3 of these revolvers plus add another $1,000 (+/- $500) to own one of these new Korths.

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My sgntr is mor thn 30 chrctrs

And yet, there are tons of folks who pay that much and more for 1911s from the likes of Baer, Wilson, etc.........

You know I sometimes wonder why Korth doesn’t document their hand-fitting process on making their revolvers. I mean if there was a video or some sort of documentary out there it would really help us understand what goes into the process and why they are priced the way they are. It’s a lost art and eventually their gunsmiths will retire or pass away.

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Ephesians 6 (Armor of God)

The lockwork of the Korth revolvers evolved over about seven years to the longer encapsuled mainspring and roller bearing for D/A stacking. The guns made in between 1962 and 1969 are of great quality with an excellent finish but lack the bearing. All polishing is done by hand and no wheel is used, leading to sharper edges than a wheel can give, something noticeable when I compare my Korths to my Python.

If you get a Korth from the sleepy little town of Ratzeburg, get one made in between 1969 and 1982. After 1982, the sale of the company and change in production staff did to Korth what the Union of Autoworkers did to the Python.

I had shot two Korth revolvers as a young man that I had borrowed from affluent friends in my shooting club and was sorely impressed with their overall quality! It took me a couple of decades to buy my first used Korth and my fascination with them grew, which was also fueled by good luck and me finding the guns for very favourable prices and importing them myself.

Attached below is a look inside and a comparison to the Python. I also had compiled a short overview to the evolution of the Korth here: The Evolution of the Korth Sport Revolver

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I was thinking your question over. Technically, there is little difference. I have a 1952 vintage S&W K-22 since about three decades and none of my .22 Korths is more accurate than the K-22. However, the ejection of the Korth rimfire revolver is much better, like in night-and-day better. The little roller bearing for the double action came in five different sizes ( comes in three now ) and the stacking can be changed by changing to a different diameter roller.

My S&W 14-2 has been the gun that I shot a lot in competition and I let a few friends and one of my sons shoot the 14-2 in comparison to a four inch Korth Combat and all did a little better with the S&W, me included. When I do the same comparison of the S&W 14-2 to a 1971 vintage six inch Korth Sport .357 Mag, the Korth gets more favorable reviews. My son shot the target below with my reloads at 25 meters, the UIT distance.

The difference is in fit and finish, not in performance or mechanical accuracy. A little bit of high end always was very expensive, compare a registered Magnum to a S&W 27-2.

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Do they charge extra for a Camo finish?

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Buy American
Vote Responsibly

I am reading this thread and smiling to myself. I suspect many here who are questioning the Korth's price tag and they have a safe full of what they consider to be collectible S&W's that total far more than the price of one Korth. As one who appreciates "in house products" I would love to handle one. I could justify the price if I really wanted something special.
In another thread here there are people lining up to by surplus military 1911's from the CMP at $1000 and up. I wouldn't give you $10 for the gun they issued me back in the 60's.

So it comes down to the fact everyone has their own sense of value and pride of ownership.
Me, I opt for the precision of a "in house watch" and maybe someday a Korth revolver.

Here's a statement from Michael Janich in Personal Defense World, December 2016 that perhaps takes exception to that characterization:

"The first time I pulled the trigger of one of the Nighthawk-Korth revolvers, a smile of wonderment crossed my face. If you are a revolver kind of person at all, you know what to expect when you pull a revolver’s trigger—even the trigger of a “worked” revolver. But I was not ready for what I felt. It was not like any trigger action I’d felt before on any type of firearm. Pardon the amateurish analogy, but it can best be described as pushing your finger through butter-laced molasses; there was no stacking, no grittiness, no nothing you would expect. You apply pressure, the trigger effortlessly moves, and the gun goes bang.

That same look of wonderment was what I witnessed as the competitors worked through the Nighthawk stage at the Gunsite 40th Anniversary Alumni Shoot. A few even commented that a trigger like the one they had just pulled is not even possible. But of course it was—they pulled it, the gun when bang, the steel rang, and they smiled."

"have to agree with the trigger analogy.
I got to fondle one a fee weeks ago and I can say that the trigger was indescribable.
I have felt some really nice triggers, but nothing like this."
Bob

Make people spend $3,500.

How about me.
No Rolex
No Seiko
No Timex

Only time I need a watch is when I go out on a job, then I go get a cheap electronic, set it, take the band off, hot glue it inside on the front of the hard hat. When the job is over I toss the hard had and the time piece.

No way I would spend $3500 on a sub caliber gun unless it was a registered magnum. I would get 3 more Smith big bores and do a little smoothing long before getting a Korth

I'd like to thank Andyd for his always informative posts based on actual first hand experience and ownership.
Another great guy to follow is Michael Zeleny. He has lots of well researched articles on Korths, Manurhin MR73s, Sig Neuhausen P210s, etc. Again, he bases his opinions on actual use, ownership, and research.
Here's an excellent article:
larvatus prodeo

I love this quote:
"In his 1936 essay, “The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction”, Walter Benjamin discusses the authenticity of a thing, construed as the essence of all that is transmissible from its beginning, ranging from its substantive duration to its testimony to the history that it has experienced. The nature of handgun production instituted and overseen by Willi Korth embodies and exemplifies the summit of authenticity built into a hand-operated mechanism. Judged by these standards, Korth Ratzeburg is as close as handguns gets to the Patek Philippe Ref. 2552, and Mulhouse Manurhin MR73 and Korth Lollar, to the Rolex 1016. The S&W Triple Lock is comparable to the Hamilton 940; the modern S&W, to a generic Timex."

Michael Zeleny and I were into Korth revolvers and Swiss SIGs long before the hype started. He definitely has his guns researched very well and his stories narrated very well, as to be exprected from a man with his educational background.

He also has the technical understanding ( and intelligence ) to make use of the features of all these rare guns, when there is little info available and hours are spent to just look at the parts and understand their interaction. Something that some prominent youtube posters obviously didn't.

I got most of my Korths before the hype and many at lower prices than I just paid for my S&W M27-2.

There are plenty of watch and automobile comparisons in this thread already.

Let me try it this way. My son is an engineer. He is a great husband and probably an even better father, if possible. He takes great care of his family. His thing is sneakers. They have websites , shows, the whole deal just like guns. He bought a pair of sneakers for like 1200.00 called yeezies or something like that. I asked him why they were better than my 39.99 Walmart sneakers. He said for the same reason you wanted that safe full of guns. Are they better than the 3906 you got me on my 21st birthday? He has a point . People like what they like and buy what they want. I have 686s, 27s ,52s and 952s. I don't need a gun that shoots better than they do because that are all exceptional.

I will own a mongoose. Why? Because I want one and I'll still be able to provide for my family after I pay for it. If you don't want one God bless you and God bless you if you do want one.

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S&WHF 483 , S&WCA 1699

Both the Korth and the Manurhin MR73 are interesting guns. The MR73's are 3000.00 new in various barrel lengths. If I had the money to buy either, it would be a tough decision. I have a 4" target MR73 that I had re-blued so I wouldn't spend the money on a new one. The 5" MR73 is sweet.

Had an early Korth .22 made I believe in 1967. It didn't have the roller bearing trigger but still very smooth. When I sold it to buy the newer model I spotted, it was gone. Watching the video, the Mongoose has a lot of nice features. I don't have a problem with the price they sell for, Larry

Well the purchase has been made. So now it has to ship in from out of state.

Time will tell if and to what extent I was actually the victim of "hype". I remain unresolved in knowing a clear path forward regarding purchase, so I've taken on a bit of a risk in purchasing anyway. My only point of reference is my 2015 purchase of a highly optioned Wilson Combat CQB Elite for $4,400 from Tractus Arms. That turned out pretty well.

The comments are much appreciated.

In coming to a decision there are the consistently over-the-top glowing statements by reviewers, there are the people here understandably shaking their head at the price, and then of course the Ratzeberg era remarks towards the "new" Korth.

The risk of purchase was in the end the hope for the kind of quintessential revolver shooting experience reported by so many with the Mongoose in other corners of the internet. I even got PM'd by a guy saying he was at the Gun Site Anniversary Shoot referenced in Post #35 and assuring me the description of the gun there is over the top but essentially true. My endless cycling of the gun's action in the store would agree that the action is unprecedented in my own limited revolver experience.

The article linked above by 6String (Post #39) says in part, "There are many objectively measurable performance factors according to which Ratzeburg Korth revolvers are far superior to their S&W counterparts.". As someone who owns and appreciates multiple S&W tuned Performance Center revolvers (4 pic'd below), even if the more modern Nighthawk imported expression of the Korth is not a Ratzeburg Korth, but moves the needle forward in the same way going from a Kimber 1911 to a Wilson Combat did, I'll be delighted. But I suspect the difference may be even greater.

Wilson Combats, Ratzeburg Korths, Nighthawk Korths, ironically, in a gunfight, arguably the apex of one's defensive trust in their firearm's platform and a manufacturer's expression of that platform, I'd have the weapon in my duty belt every time: a Glock Model 35 that the agency pays like $450 for. But that's not why I bought a Korth.

Pictured, TRR8, 627 UDR, 586 L-Comp, M&P R8, all but the M&P tuned by TK Custom, Illinois.

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The gun doesn't matter in gun fight, it is more about attitude. I have Korths to forget about fighting guns.

As someone who has been shot at as recently as September of 2016, the gun abso-darn-lutely matters, attitude matters more.

But I digress. I bought a Korth today.

The Korth will give you a very different experience. It is an extremely refined gun. I am sure that you will appreciate all the little refinements of it.

Keep us informed about progress, please - and keep out of harms way!

I was looking at sticker on a new F150 Platinum.. $64,000

1/2 ton ...wow...sorry off topic..

I want a Peterbilt pick up truck, not sure how much for the conversion.

Is it worth it? Just about any gun at a 1/4 of the Korth price will shoot better than the shooter can perform so IMO no it isn't worth the price as far as function goes.
That being said I have a Python and a S&W 627-5 Pro which I can shoot the 627 more accurately than the Python. Was the Python worth a little over double what the 627 cost? Function wise no but it sure is Purdy and they don't make them anymore.
I also had a Wilson Combat compact 45 that I couldn't shoot anymore accurately than my Kimber Ultra Carry II 45. I sold the WC and still have the Kimber.

I adjusted the hammer tension spring on my 627-5 and the trigger is just as good if not better than the Python trigger.

So is a Korth worth the extra cha ching? It all depends on the buyer.

Congratulations, make sure you enjoy it by shooting it a lot. Jim (6string) helped me get an unfired Hammerli 100 cleaned and running, very collectible with the original box and accessories as new. Made in 1953. I try to shoot it every week and having a lot of fun with it. As with your Korth, I enjoy the precision of its manufacturing. The high end guns with all the hand fitting are fun to shoot knowing you have the best of the breed. The older Korth's on gun Broker are way above what you are paying. Larry

Thanks for the info. Now I know what specific time frame to concentrate on if I ever pursue one. Definitely want the roller bearings for adjustment.

Shortly after posting my previous comment, I found through research that the "cylinder" mainspring is actually a coil spring inside of a cylinder. I'm not a fan of coil mainsprings, but I am sure Korth did it right and they don't feel like normal coil spring actions.

I wish I would have got into Korths before all the quality revolver hysteria. That's what interests me most in revolvers, the design and engineering of certain ones coupled with the level of detail and attention given make certain revolvers works of art almost. Even so, I buy quality revolvers for use. Sure a more affordable revolver could be had that would do the same thing, but I like the finer things.

The main reason I am a Colt guy is solely for the V spring action design. It's the most tuneable revolver action made and that allows me to do great things as far as refinement to my needs. My EDC snub Python has a 2# 2oz SA pull and a 7# DA pull, almost no stack remaining. I'm sure many would consider it's DA pull something amazing never felt before. When you're used to factory guns, it doesn't take much tuning or a highly refined action to make one go "wow". I would love to tinker with the Korth's adjustment features and see just how refined it can be made.

iPac,

All adjustments I did on the Korth were just for personal preference, not so much for real improvement. The gun is great.

While the mechanical accuracy of the top recolvers are all comparable, features like trigger characteristics make a difference to those that compete at higher levels, as does a crisp sight picture, and a properly set trigger stop.

A Ruger Mk II is a very fine gun but when I competed in serious UIT matches on higher levels I found the Hämmerli 208 International giving me an advantage. When I shoot for speed with a wheelgun, my choice is still a S&W. A love affair that lasts over four decades.

Does it make me a gun w.h.o.r.e***?