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  #101  
Old 08-13-2017, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
Well there have been a hell of a lot more people shot from ND's with Glocks, than Sigs dropping. How many dropped Sig AD's has there been?
So you're comparing negligent people who shouldn't handle a firearm with a firearm that comes with a flaw from the factory?


Next you will ask "well how many people died driving Dodge caravans that got into accidents compared to the number of people died due to Ford pinto gas tanks exploding"
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  #102  
Old 08-13-2017, 01:08 PM
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It seems like the greatest contributing factor to the accidental discharges when the pistol is dropped is the actual weight of the trigger (the part). The inertia causes the trigger to continue to the rear far enough to cause the pistol to discharge when dropped onto a hard surface at a 30 degree angle, where the slide and the beavertail of the grip module are impacted nearly at the same time. Apparently no standard testing includes dropping pistols at this angle. This appears to be a flaw in the testing protocols. Some Sig P320's don't have the curved trigger and they are of lighter weight. These models with the lighter weight trigger part don't seem to be subject to this malady. The military M-17, although similar to the P320, isn't exactly the same and apparently isn't subject to this problem. Sig's "voluntary upgrade" will involve sending the complete firearm back to Sig for a replacement of the trigger and a modification of the grip module. The bad part of all of this is that there are claims that Sig has known for a very long time (at least a year) that the P320 with curved triggers were subject to this. I don't know if any of those rumors have been actually proven though. It wouldn't surprise me, because many other firearm manufacturers in the past, including Glock have denied problems with their products. This has worked in the past, but with today's rapid information highway, it may not work for Sig. Time will tell. More than likely, as P320 owners get back their guns with the "voluntary upgrades" and the passage of time, this will blow over.
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  #103  
Old 08-13-2017, 01:35 PM
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So the OP was mostly right after all. Even though alot of people here don't want to acknowledge there's an issue, Sig has.
They are the responsible party.

No fanboy here of any manufacturer, I look at the truth. Defective/poorly engineered guns/hammers/refrigerators/shoes, etc have been produced since day one.

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  #104  
Old 08-13-2017, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladder13 View Post
So the OP was mostly right after all. Even though alot of people here don't want to acknowledge there's an issue, Sig has.
They are the responsible party.

No fanboy here of any manufacturer, I look at the truth. Defective/poorly engineered guns/hammers/refrigerators/shoes, etc have been produced since day one.
One question regarding Sig, seems to be just how long ago did they know about the issue? Some folks are mighty angry about the possibility of Sig continuing to manufacture firearms where they knew that there was a specific problem. One thing in Sig's favor is that there have been so few reported accidents with the Sig P320 pistols. If the problem was known (and it may have well not been known) it might not have been a big priority with Sig's decisions. That, in hindsight, would have been a very bad decision as things now stand.
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  #105  
Old 08-13-2017, 02:45 PM
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I would buy a defective SIG 320 before I would ever buy a Glock.
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  #106  
Old 08-13-2017, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashlander View Post
Forrestinmathews told of a friend who got a great deal on a new Sig P320. He slapped the friend on the back to congratulate him and the gun went off.
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  #107  
Old 08-13-2017, 03:54 PM
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"IMO a Glock would be a much better weapon with a thumb safety. "
There are such aftermarket safties available, but not from Glock. Glock does (or did) make some pistols having external safeties for sales in those countries having such a requirement. And in fact the earliest Glocks made for the Austrian Army had external safeties.
  #108  
Old 08-13-2017, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brasky View Post
So you're comparing negligent people who shouldn't handle a firearm with a firearm that comes with a flaw from the factory?


Next you will ask "well how many people died driving Dodge caravans that got into accidents compared to the number of people died due to Ford pinto gas tanks exploding"
Has anybody been shot by dropping a Sig P320?

I think there is every bit of relevance, one has not happened apparently outside a garage lab. The other happens continually due to Glock's required trigger pull for breakdown. Which the injuries have been many.

BTW Jennings was successfully sued for the same issue for breakdown. It put them out of business.
  #109  
Old 08-13-2017, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
Has anybody been shot by dropping a Sig P320?

I think there is every bit of relevance, one has not happened apparently outside a garage lab. The other happens continually due to Glock's required trigger pull for breakdown. Which the injuries have been many.

BTW Jennings was successfully sued for the same issue for breakdown. It put them out of business.
Yes, in January a cop was putting stuff in his vehicle and dropped his holstered P320. It went off and shot him in the knee. He has a lawsuit pending. It didn't make the news until this controversy came up. I suspect nobody believed him. I believe the history is giving earlier in this thread (or in another thread on this forum).
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  #110  
Old 08-13-2017, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashlander View Post
Yes, in January a cop was putting stuff in his vehicle and dropped his holstered P320. It went off and shot him in the knee. He has a lawsuit pending. It didn't make the news until this controversy came up. I suspect nobody believed him. I believe the history is giving earlier in this thread (or in another thread on this forum).
One compared to how many Glock instances of ND, and AD's. The facts are that people are human, and make errors, and Glocks have more injuries due to those errors. One the same error that got one company sued out of business.
  #111  
Old 08-13-2017, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashlander View Post
Yes, in January a cop was putting stuff in his vehicle and dropped his holstered P320. It went off and shot him in the knee. He has a lawsuit pending. It didn't make the news until this controversy came up. I suspect nobody believed him. I believe the history is giving earlier in this thread (or in another thread on this forum).
I think although the incident happened in January, the lawsuit was only filed after the Dallas P.D. report in August, 2017...just a few days ago.
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  #112  
Old 08-13-2017, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
Well there have been a hell of a lot more people shot from ND's with Glocks, than Sigs dropping. How many dropped Sig AD's has there been?
NDs when cleaning or holstering are not the issue here, so why did Sig mention it? My point is that a supposed professional organisation like Sig needs to stay on topic. Anything else is pointless thrashing on the hook and a pathetic attempt to deflect attention.
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  #113  
Old 08-13-2017, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVSteve View Post
NDs when cleaning or holstering are not the issue here, so why did Sig mention it? My point is that a supposed professional organisation like Sig needs to stay on topic. Anything else is pointless thrashing on the hook and a pathetic attempt to deflect attention.
Is a gunshot wound not a gun shot wound by a different mistake?
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  #114  
Old 08-13-2017, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVSteve View Post
NDs when cleaning or holstering are not the issue here, so why did Sig mention it? My point is that a supposed professional organisation like Sig needs to stay on topic. Anything else is pointless thrashing on the hook and a pathetic attempt to deflect attention.
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Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
Is a gunshot wound not a gun shot wound by a different mistake?
To walkingwolfs point, I think what he is getting at is both end up with gun shot wounds that are not intentional. Whether it be an ND or AD. It just so happens we call the ones with Glocks ND's and blame the end user but in this case with Sig an AD and blame Sig bc **** happens. But people can't sue for their own negligence even though it can be prevented by a design change. But we expect manufacturers to cover our *** for accidents that may or may not be beyond our control. Who is to say when a firearm falls there is not some negligence involved too? We just have come to expect that all firearms be drop safe with a loaded chamber.
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  #115  
Old 08-13-2017, 08:54 PM
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With at least a double retention duty holster, how does one's gun fall from the holster?
  #116  
Old 08-13-2017, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
With at least a double retention duty holster, how does one's gun fall from the holster?
It didn't. He was loading gear into a truck, took off his whole gunbelt, dropped that, and the gun fired while in the holster. The round hit him in the knee.
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  #117  
Old 08-13-2017, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
It didn't. He was loading gear into a truck, took off his whole gunbelt, dropped that, and the gun fired while in the holster. The round hit him in the knee.
For a striker fired pistol, that right there is a problem . . .
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  #118  
Old 08-13-2017, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
It didn't. He was loading gear into a truck, took off his whole gunbelt, dropped that, and the gun fired while in the holster. The round hit him in the knee.
I can almost see dropping a gun, but dropping a whole gun belt. How hard is a gun belt to hang onto? And then all the planets, and stars have to align for the gun to land just right. Not just in a holster, but a holster on a gun belt. And this is the SOLE case of this happening in all the years Sig has produced this gun type.

In the meantime there have been many people shot by ND's, not there ND, but someone else. Hundreds of injuries, and a good number of fatalities.

I prefer the other person who I can't control be carrying a Sig, not a Glock. I own Glocks, but to be honest I don't trust anyone else owning them. Just too many ND's with innocents being hurt.
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  #119  
Old 08-13-2017, 11:38 PM
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Wait he dropped his whole gun belt with the 320 holstered and it still fell at a -30 angle and fired? Was he holding his belt upside down before he dropped it??? Now I am trying to picture how this happened in my head. I didn't know it fell holstered and on a gun belt...
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  #120  
Old 08-13-2017, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
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Wait he dropped his whole gun belt with the 320 holstered and it still fell at a -30 angle and fired? Was he holding his belt upside down before he dropped it??? Now I am trying to picture how this happened in my head. I didn't know it fell holstered and on a gun belt...
It would be virtually impossible if the department issued a drop holster. It would hit the belt attachment before it could ever get close to the back of the gun.
  #121  
Old 08-14-2017, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
It would be virtually impossible if the department issued a drop holster. It would hit the belt attachment before it could ever get close to the back of the gun.
That's what I'm saying, based off of what I am reading, his weapon was holstered on his gun belt which was off his body, he went to put it in his vehicle, fell, then went off when it hit the ground? 2+2=7 apparently? Unless it fell out of his holster when it fell too. But don't even some agencies require double retention?

We definitely must be missing some details. Have the details been released anywhere?
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  #122  
Old 08-14-2017, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
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It would be virtually impossible if the department issued a drop holster. It would hit the belt attachment before it could ever get close to the back of the gun.
One word........INERTIA. If this the problem, it doesn't matter what type of holster is used.
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  #123  
Old 08-14-2017, 08:17 AM
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And this statement from Sig is a cop out.

"Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge."
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  #124  
Old 08-14-2017, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
Has anybody been shot by dropping a Sig P320?

I think there is every bit of relevance, one has not happened apparently outside a garage lab. The other happens continually due to Glock's required trigger pull for breakdown. Which the injuries have been many.

BTW Jennings was successfully sued for the same issue for breakdown. It put them out of business.
Funny how when a gun manufacturer puts out a faulty product people jump to blaming another big gun manufacturer that isn't even related.

"Well if I pull the trigger of a loaded Glock while it's pointed at my leg I'll get injured and lots of cops do this."

Sorry but that's a bad excuse instead of addressing the issue this thread was started for. If anyone disassembles a Glock (or any firearm) without double checking the chamber is empty then they shouldn't be handling a firearm.
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Old 08-14-2017, 09:10 AM
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This morning 14 August on Sigs website they announced a voluntary upgrade to address this very real problem. You fill out an online form and they will send you a shipping label at some point. With 500,000 P320s out there I imagine it's going to take awhile, we'll see. Their announcement further states a 4/6 week turn around time frame.
Anyone with a P320 that's interested just go to Sigs web site for further info. Damn, I just bought this P320 X-VTAC a couple days ago and now it has to go back to the factory.
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Old 08-14-2017, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
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This morning 14 August on Sigs website they announced a voluntary upgrade to address this very real problem...........
All's well, there's no problem folks. Now about those Glocks......
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Old 08-14-2017, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mag318 View Post
This morning 14 August on Sigs website they announced a voluntary upgrade to address this very real problem. You fill out an online form and they will send you a shipping label at some point. With 500,000 P320s out there I imagine it's going to take awhile, we'll see. Their announcement further states a 4/6 week turn around time frame.
Anyone with a P320 that's interested just go to Sigs web site for further info. Damn, I just bought this P320 X-VTAC a couple days ago and now it has to go back to the factory.
Where is the form? I'm on their website

Update: Never mind! Found it

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  #128  
Old 08-14-2017, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by 6518John View Post
I can't believe they are drop testing these guns indoors with no barrier between them and gun. Aren't they shooting holes in the ceiling or walls? What if that gun does not get dropped straight and shoots back at the tester or film crew? Maybe I misssed something and they have pulled the bullets?
Exactly! I about hemorrhaged green paint when I saw this.
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Old 08-14-2017, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
Is a gunshot wound not a gun shot wound by a different mistake?
Maybe I'm not making myself clear. Sig need to focus on fixing the issue, not trying to score points while their back is against the wall. Their attitude is symptomatic of the unwillingness of people to accept responsibility and get on with what needs to be done. Disassembly is NOT the issue at hand, Sig needs to shut up about it.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Mercedes have had huge issues with their 7-speed transmissions going back to the early 2000s. If you were a Mercedes owner who had been stranded in an intersection and wrecked, would you be interested if Mercedes came back and said, "Um yeah, whatever, but have you seen all the BMWs with high pressure fuel pump issues?"

Trying to deflect criticism by lashing out at others is a prime indication of the slide in our society's morals. Corporations are as guilty of this nonsense as much as individuals.
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Old 08-14-2017, 01:10 PM
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It's only a issue for those who chronically drop their guns. Don't like Sigs, it is simple don't buy one. The crying is silly, one there has been very few instances(one) of sigs going boom when dropped. Much less than instances of Glocks going kaboom. Two it is really not up to others what a person buys or carries, so it is pretty much a waste of time. Someone who likes their Sig is going to ignore you. When it comes to safety there are more problems with drawstrings pulling triggers than drop issues.

My concern is people who should not own a striker fired gun without a manual safety are the ones who want them the most. If they shoot themselves I just don't care. But when they shoot others while breaking down their Glock, then that is a problem.

Glocks are marketed to newbie gun owners, Sigs are marketed to gun aficionados. Glocks are just as dangerous as Sigs, different ways but there have been more Glock instances than Sig.

If I buy a Edsel, and love them, then all the whining in the world about how bad they are does not matter. You do know that there are actual collectors of Edsels out there?

I personally do not own a Sig, but BS is BS, and this issue IS BS. Do you own a Sig?
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  #131  
Old 08-14-2017, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
And this statement from Sig is a cop out.

"Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge."
It's just CYA, you know, the same thing that happens in the military and everywhere else. The P320's passed all the tests in place at the time. The problem is the tests didn't include one that shows the weakness of this pistol. You can be sure that Sig's attorney's are contributing to every statement.
  #132  
Old 08-14-2017, 07:28 PM
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One word........INERTIA. If this the problem, it doesn't matter what type of holster is used.
Not exactly. Gun plus belt falling on the back of the slide = extra weight, harder impact. Maybe at the inopportune angle. Gun falls and hits on the soft holster and the soft leather absorbs some impact before the gun gets its jolt. So the inertia has different effects. But I'm not one to start telling holster makers that the holster is the solution! The gun should not go off when dropped.

Either the gun went off when dropped or the victim is lying. Yes lying. I'm not accusing this person, but in my town two cops told a whopper that broke down and eventually turned into "poor gun handling and one guy shot his partner."
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  #133  
Old 08-14-2017, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
It's only a issue for those who chronically drop their guns. Don't like Sigs, it is simple don't buy one. The crying is silly, one there has been very few instances(one) of sigs going boom when dropped. Much less than instances of Glocks going kaboom. Two it is really not up to others what a person buys or carries, so it is pretty much a waste of time. Someone who likes their Sig is going to ignore you. When it comes to safety there are more problems with drawstrings pulling triggers than drop issues.

My concern is people who should not own a striker fired gun without a manual safety are the ones who want them the most. If they shoot themselves I just don't care. But when they shoot others while breaking down their Glock, then that is a problem.

Glocks are marketed to newbie gun owners, Sigs are marketed to gun aficionados. Glocks are just as dangerous as Sigs, different ways but there have been more Glock instances than Sig.

If I buy a Edsel, and love them, then all the whining in the world about how bad they are does not matter. You do know that there are actual collectors of Edsels out there?

I personally do not own a Sig, but BS is BS, and this issue IS BS. Do you own a Sig?
If I may, the problem with your suggestion that if people don't like Sig P320s, presumably because they have gone off when dropped, then they shouldn't buy them is that somebody else may be hit with the bullet. You may want to take your chances but I don't have a choice who I stand next to at the range.

I know you'll say the odds of getting hurt are a million to one -- but that doesn't stop people from buying lottery tickets. Somebody always beats the odds.

Cordially, Ashlander
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  #134  
Old 08-14-2017, 08:19 PM
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If I may, the problem with your suggestion that if people don't like Sig P320s, presumably because they have gone off when dropped, then they shouldn't buy them is that somebody else may be hit with the bullet. You may want to take your chances but I don't have a choice who I stand next to at the range.

I know you'll say the odds of getting hurt are a million to one -- but that doesn't stop people from buying lottery tickets. Somebody always beats the odds.

Cordially, Ashlander
I agree 100 percent here.

When I'm in the grocery store with my kid and my wife as the backstop of everyone else carrying a pistol, I DO CARE if the guy standing next to me is carrying a pistol that, should it fall to the floor, will go off and kill my kid.

This has nothing to do with wanting to outlaw certain pistols. There is a large set of things that are immoral yet they should remain legal; cheating on one's spouse, lying to your mother, and carrying a pistol that you know will fire should it fall to the floor---all things that a lousy human being does, but we don't want the state to outlaw it. It's about basic human decency, and having a bare minimal concern for other people that merely reaches the threshold of not accidentally shooting me or my kid in a public place if you drop your pistol.

And for everyone who says "I don't care because I never drop my gun"----My reply is: "have you ever tripped and fallen in your life? Or, have you ever been in a fight and got wrestled to the ground?" The "I'll never drop my gun" response is as about as fatuous as saying "I'll never get into an auto accident so I'll never wear my seatbelt or carry auto insurance".

SIG has a big problem on their hands. Thus far, they are not handling it well.

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  #135  
Old 08-14-2017, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mag318 View Post
This morning 14 August on Sigs website they announced a voluntary upgrade to address this very real problem. You fill out an online form and they will send you a shipping label at some point. With 500,000 P320s out there I imagine it's going to take awhile, we'll see. Their announcement further states a 4/6 week turn around time frame.
Anyone with a P320 that's interested just go to Sigs web site for further info. Damn, I just bought this P320 X-VTAC a couple days ago and now it has to go back to the factory.
FYI, here is the link to the SIG upgrade web page:

P320 Voluntary Upgrade Program | Sig Sauer
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  #136  
Old 08-14-2017, 08:59 PM
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What is with this obsession on people cheating on their spouse?

Is there a personal reason this keeps coming up?

Mods I apologize but this continual reference to this needs to stop, or an answer why.
  #137  
Old 08-14-2017, 09:09 PM
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Is a gunshot wound not a gun shot wound by a different mistake?
I like this guy. He talks sense. We holstermakers are encouraged to make the distinction (by consumers) whilst I say there is no distinction except in a courtroom: same hole in the leg, let's do what we can to prevent it, even if we have to refuse to build holsters for that particular pistol.
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  #138  
Old 08-14-2017, 09:11 PM
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What is with this obsession on people cheating on their spouse?

Is there a personal reason this keeps coming up?

Mods I apologize but this continual reference to this needs to stop, or an answer why.
It is a great example that belongs in the set of things that are immoral yet should still be legal. Why do you focus on the example I use? Focusing in on irrelevant differences in analogies reflects an inability to abstract from the concrete and apply principles to the hypothetical.

Cheating on your spouse, being a poor tipper to restaurant servers, cursing in front of young children, refusing to hold the door for someone walking in behind you, taking the last seat on the bus when there are women and children being forced to stand, telling your kids that black peter will take them away to Spain if they are bad, carrying a pistol in public that you know will go off if it falls from the hostler: the list goes on.

Last edited by American1776; 08-14-2017 at 09:16 PM.
  #139  
Old 08-14-2017, 09:36 PM
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4 pages of posts..enough...

Thank you all..
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