Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > Firearms & Knives: Other Brands & General Gun Topics
o

Notices

Firearms & Knives: Other Brands & General Gun Topics Post Your General Gun Topics and Non-S&W Gun and Blade Topics Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-05-2017, 08:50 PM
LVSteve's Avatar
LVSteve LVSteve is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lost Wages, NV
Posts: 19,827
Likes: 24,247
Liked 28,996 Times in 10,772 Posts
Default Mystery vest pocket pistol

Shot this for the first time yesterday. I believe it is a Unique pattern vest pocket pistol in 25 ACP (or 6.35 for my European viewers). The slide and frame bear no maker's marks or proofs, just a serial number. The machining is rough and ready as you can see inside the slide.

The grips are not original as there are tapped holes at the back of the frame under them. The contour of the backstrap appears to be unique as much trawling of the Web has yet to reveal a similar piece. Best guesses from others are it is a Spanish "no name" for Germany in WWII or an Italian piece.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Mystery02.jpg (64.6 KB, 274 views)
File Type: jpg Mystery03.jpg (73.9 KB, 213 views)
File Type: jpg Mystery05.jpg (80.1 KB, 191 views)
File Type: jpg Mystery04.jpg (45.7 KB, 177 views)
File Type: jpg Mystery07.jpg (58.2 KB, 173 views)
__________________
Release the Kraken
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #2  
Old 09-05-2017, 09:20 PM
kaaskop49 kaaskop49 is offline
Member
Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol  
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Demon-class planet
Posts: 7,404
Likes: 29,169
Liked 8,461 Times in 3,772 Posts
Default

W.H.B. Smith's Book of Pistols and Revolvers has an Appendix #1 with 24(!) pages of faint, indistinct photos of .25 ACP autos. The closest I can come, based on the forward sloping finger grooves and the shape of the rear strap is on pg 553, called a "Seam" and that is only the best guess I can make. Virtually everything not a Beretta, Colt or German-made .25 looks 90% like a Unique knock-off. It's really rough, isn't it, a lot like a 30 oz(!) Spanish .32 ACP I once ran across, I forget the name.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #3  
Old 09-05-2017, 09:30 PM
bigwheelzip's Avatar
bigwheelzip bigwheelzip is offline
Absent Comrade
Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 12,990
Likes: 17,229
Liked 41,503 Times in 9,146 Posts
Default

Someone else was looking for it's cousin in this thread, post 36.
Greetings from France

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-06-2017, 02:36 AM
Texas Star Texas Star is offline
US Veteran
Absent Comrade
Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 20,362
Likes: 24,260
Liked 16,154 Times in 7,408 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaaskop49 View Post
W.H.B. Smith's Book of Pistols and Revolvers has an Appendix #1 with 24(!) pages of faint, indistinct photos of .25 ACP autos. The closest I can come, based on the forward sloping finger grooves and the shape of the rear strap is on pg 553, called a "Seam" and that is only the best guess I can make. Virtually everything not a Beretta, Colt or German-made .25 looks 90% like a Unique knock-off. It's really rough, isn't it, a lot like a 30 oz(!) Spanish .32 ACP I once ran across, I forget the name.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Ruby ?

I think all Unique guns are French. This one looks like a really raw Spanish copy of the FN 1906, less grip safety. The Czech Duo Z is a better gun of that type.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 09-06-2017, 08:43 AM
Absalom's Avatar
Absalom Absalom is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
Default

I would bet money it is a generic Basque-Spanish copy of the basic Baby Browning design (more or less).

Many of the dozens of Eibar-area gunmakers who sold Rubys to the French during WW I produced "pocket" versions and other variants after the war to have products for the commercial market. Fit, finish, and general appearance of this gun is very similar to a Ruby, just shrunk.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 09-06-2017, 08:48 AM
english english is offline
Member
Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol  
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Pgh. Pa.
Posts: 330
Likes: 360
Liked 1,301 Times in 113 Posts
Default

Absolam hit the nail right on the head! They either copied the Colt or the Browning vest pockets.
Joe
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 09-06-2017, 08:20 PM
LVSteve's Avatar
LVSteve LVSteve is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lost Wages, NV
Posts: 19,827
Likes: 24,247
Liked 28,996 Times in 10,772 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwheelzip View Post
Someone else was looking for it's cousin in this thread, post 36.
Greetings from France

Close! It's the minimal radius at the top of the backstrap to the vestigial beavertail that makes my gun so unusual. Still looking for a twin.
__________________
Release the Kraken
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-06-2017, 08:22 PM
LVSteve's Avatar
LVSteve LVSteve is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lost Wages, NV
Posts: 19,827
Likes: 24,247
Liked 28,996 Times in 10,772 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
Ruby ?

I think all Unique guns are French. This one looks like a really raw Spanish copy of the FN 1906, less grip safety. The Czech Duo Z is a better gun of that type.
Ruby!!!! Of course! I must of had brain fade when I said Unique.
__________________
Release the Kraken
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-06-2017, 09:00 PM
Absalom's Avatar
Absalom Absalom is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 12,834
Likes: 10,103
Liked 27,995 Times in 8,452 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVSteve View Post
Close! It's the minimal radius at the top of the backstrap to the vestigial beavertail that makes my gun so unusual. Still looking for a twin.
Do a Google-image search for "Ruby pistol .25". You'll get a grab bag of pictures that may yield results.

On the other hand, the "twin" might be hard to find considering that just parts interchangeability between Ruby pistols even from the same manufacturer was iffy, as the French found out to their chagrin.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-06-2017, 09:09 PM
LVSteve's Avatar
LVSteve LVSteve is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lost Wages, NV
Posts: 19,827
Likes: 24,247
Liked 28,996 Times in 10,772 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
Do a Google-image search for "Ruby pistol .25". You'll get a grab bag of pictures that may yield results.
Tried that a few times. No joy.
__________________
Release the Kraken
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-07-2017, 12:09 AM
2152hq 2152hq is offline
Member
Mystery vest pocket pistol  
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,727
Likes: 1,633
Liked 9,099 Times in 3,366 Posts
Default

The sharp angle the backstrap takes at the web is very acute,,don't recall seeing any like that before. I got some book references re" Spanish pistols with info and many illustrations and I didn't see any that matched.
But there are so many different makers just in the Spanish makers before 1936. One list I have gives nearly 100 makers of 25cal semiautos.
Some were actually mfg'rs/makers,,others just assemblers of other outsourced parts. But they generally were pretty proud of their stuff and marked it well.
It looks like a Spanish product or at least the design does with the Eibar type safety, the bbl flutes at the muzzle, the bar disconnector.
But Belgian copies are out there too from the same period and some reflect the same features. A couple of the Spanish firms even had pistols made in Belgium to their style and specs.
French mfg is another possibility as they copied some of the Spanish designs. They had plenty to look at from the thousands of surplus French issue Ruby (32cal) Spanish mfg pistols that flooded France after WW1.

Another possibility is the old lunch box special. That idea seems to have been around as long as factories and employees. Wouldn't take much to hi-jack a piece or two out of some of the Spanish facilities they worked in a the time. Some were truely shade tree operations w/a tree. Others fairly well established shops.

I guess another possibility would be a Pakistan/Kyber Pass knockoff. They can make some pretty nice stuff if they want need to and everything else in betw as far as quality goes.
Markings would be whatever the mechanic sitting on the dirt floor of his shop wanted to put on them or had the tools/talent to do.
The 'S 'for safe mark when looked at close up has distinctive wavy lines to the upper and lower curves to the letter.
It would take some die cutting skill to make a hand stamp with that small of features in it,,The mark itself might be hand cut/chased (lacking a handy 'S' stamp). Looks can be deceiving in a pic though and that might be all that it is that I'm seeing;

Neat little pistol where ever it's from.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 09-07-2017, 06:36 PM
Olle Olle is offline
Member
Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol Mystery vest pocket pistol  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 4
Likes: 4
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
I would bet money it is a generic Basque-Spanish copy of the basic Baby Browning design (more or less).

Many of the dozens of Eibar-area gunmakers who sold Rubys to the French during WW I produced "pocket" versions and other variants after the war to have products for the commercial market. Fit, finish, and general appearance of this gun is very similar to a Ruby, just shrunk.
I'd say you're right. Pocket pistols like this (and the "Rubys" as well) were made by numerous more or less talented manufacturers, and some were not proud enough of their work to stamp their company name on it. I have also seen these guns with Colt stamps on them, which was an attempt to fool the customer into thinking that they were buying a quality product. Interesting guns, but not really collectible unless you happen to collect Spanish clones.
__________________
Deer Hollow Enterprises, LLC
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Colt 1908 Vest Pocket Pistol Faulkner Firearms & Knives: Other Brands & General Gun Topics 15 03-01-2013 01:09 PM
WTS: Colt .25 Vest Pocket mod34 GUNS - For Sale or Trade 1 01-23-2013 06:36 AM
French vest pocket from 50s english Firearms & Knives: Other Brands & General Gun Topics 13 12-27-2010 12:12 PM
WTT Colt Vest Pocket tfltackdriver GUNS - For Sale or Trade 1 08-13-2010 09:37 AM
.22 vest pocket pistol ??? LisaAnn The Lounge 8 04-23-2010 08:40 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:37 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)