Black Powder rifle question.

[Kiwi cop]

For Christmas 2016 I bought myself my first black powder rifle, a Pedersoli made replica of a Cook and Brother 1863 Confederate carbine.

My brother made me wait to fire it until he could be there to try it out too, so I only got in one range session before my wife’s surgery in early March ‘17, at which time I got it hitting just above the 10 ring on an ISSF 25 yard pistol target.

I got an other short session with it in October where I tried it out at 50 meters. I only took along 10 or 12 Minnie Balls and past 30 meters had no idea where the bullets were hitting. Certainly not the 9” plate I was using as a reactive target.

Yesterday I took it to the range for an extended session. I started at 25 meters with a plain white piece of paper behind the plate to see where my misses were going. and starting again at 25 meters moved back in 5 meters steps. It was shooting to the left a bit, just enough to miss the plate, so I drifted over the rear sight. All was good out to around 45 meters, past where when I lost sight of where my misses were going.

Putting up a new sheet of paper I moved to the 50 meter bench where I fired one shot. It went about an inch to the left of the target stand about 12 inches or so beneath the target.

Now I am only using a light (55 grain) charge of 777 black powder replacement as my LGS was out of black powder the day I went to buy some Pyrodex (I prefer the lessser residue/cleaning a black powder replacement gives when shooting more than a dozen rounds in one session). I know this is a light charge so I am wondering how much powder I will need to bring it back up to POA. We only shoot black powder rifles at 50 meters at my club, but a bit further (70 - 75 meters) would be realistic.

I am picking that a 65-70 grain charge is needed?

[DWalt]

I can't comment about your Cook carbine, but I do have a Sile .54 Sharps breechloader replica. I fire lead round balls and fill the chamber completely full of powder (more later on that). It shoots very tight groups at 50 yards, all within 3". I use Crisco as lube by swabbing a little in the barrel. But the Sharps seems to shoot about as well without any lube.

About the powder - I use Pyrodex Rifle with some black powder added. That seems to ignite more reliably (My Sharps uses musket caps) than Pyrodex alone. I use the same mixture of Pyroxex and BP in all my BP guns, both revolvers and rifles. I can't provide a precise amount of BP in the mixture, but not much, maybe 5% by volume.

[Stevie]

If a stiffer powder charge doesn't help the try different bullets. I assume the 'mini balls' are hollow-base?

[Pisgah]

I think the 55 gr. charge is probably a bit low. Dixie Gun Works recommends 60 gr. with a .577 Minie.

[OKFC05]

You must match the rifle barrel twist to the projectile used.
The original 1 in 48 twist will not shoot the modern long bullets for spit.
70gr of 777 will do

[Kiwi cop]

Originally Posted by Stevie

If a stiffer powder charge doesn't help the try different bullets. I assume the 'mini balls' are hollow-base?

.577 hollow basedlubed with a mixture of bees wax and beef dripping.

[Kiwi cop]

Once my supplier gets back from the Christmas/New Year break (hopefully Jan 8th) I’ll order up 65 and 70 grain spouts for my powder measure. Then I think my brother and nephew will plan on joining me for another extended range session.

Actually by then I should also have my Uburti single action Stainless ‘58 Remmington revolver too

[2152hq]

Are the Minie Bullets pure lead?,,Maybe they aren't expanding in the bore if they are cast from lead alloy that is too hard. They won't seal the bore nor engage the rifling. You get very low velocity from blow-by pressure and not sealing the bore. That can account for the trajectory drop.

Also, 777 may not just be the powder that the particular bullets you are using likes in that Carbine.
Alloy or pure lead, bullet design, lube, rifling spec, ect all play a role just like a cartridge gun.

[Muley Gil]

I shoot a Parker-Hale 1861 Enfield carbine. Mine is quite accurate with 45 grains of FFFg Goex black powder. I use either a .576 Lyman Minie or a Lee .576 wadcutter.

As mentioned above, the bullets must be cast from pure lead. They should also be about .001-.002" undersized.

Try the North-South Skirmish Association's Bulletin Board for more info. All of the folks there shoot CW firearms in competition.

North South Skirmish Association

[Kiwi cop]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

I shoot a Parker-Hale 1861 Enfield carbine. Mine is quite accurate with 45 grains of FFFg Goex black powder. I use either a .576 Lyman Minie or a Lee .576 wadcutter.

As mentioned above, the bullets must be cast from pure lead. They should also be about .001-.002" undersized.

Try the North-South Skirmish Association's Bulletin Board for more info. All of the folks there shoot CW firearms in competition.

North South Skirmish Association

I buy the projectiles from a supplier with over 20 years catering to black powder shooters. They advertise them as being pure lead, or about as close as you can get in this day and age I imagine. I simply do not shoot enough BP to cast my own. (In fact it has been a very long time since I cast any projectiles).

The bullets simply push down into the barrel with finger pressure so are undersized. And interestingly it is elevation that is only out. Windage is spot on, which is why I suspect powder charge is the reason.

[JayFramer]

Beautiful and handy Yankee blasters! Can we see yours?

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by Kiwi cop

I buy the projectiles from a supplier with over 20 years catering to black powder shooters. They advertise them as being pure lead, or about as close as you can get in this day and age I imagine. I simply do not shoot enough BP to cast my own. (In fact it has been a very long time since I cast any projectiles).

The bullets simply push down into the barrel with finger pressure so are undersized. And interestingly it is elevation that is only out. Windage is spot on, which is why I suspect powder charge is the reason.

If you can easily squeeze the skirt shut, that should be soft enough. I would start at 38 grains of FFg or FFFg and work my way up, about 2 grains at a time.

I don't know how much it would cost to get a mould to you, but Lee makes a decent Minie mould for around $20 US. I've been shooting BP and Minie balls for almost 50 years now and I still use a cast iron pot on a Coleman stove. About the only change I have made is that I have a propane converter instead of using the gasoline tank.

[old&slow]

I didn't see where you stated what was the rate of twist ? How deep is the rilfing ? Are you using a patched round ball, or a conical bullet ?

If the rifle has shallow rifling , say .005 and a faster twist say 1 in 48 or faster, it will shoot a conical bullet better than a patched round ball.

If you are shooting a mini ,, make sure your powder charge isn't too stiff and blowing out the skirt of the mini.

If it has deeper rifling , say .010 and a slower 1 in 66 twist it will probably shoot a patched round ball better.
( probably not on that type of rifle )

If it has shallow rifling and a fast twist and you are using a patched round ball , you might try to drop your powder charge to a grain per caliber.. that is a 50 caliber use 50 grains. To see if that tightens up your group.

Plus how often to you wipe the bore. when I was shooting black powder I wiped after every shot. If not the rifle will become hard to load and your group will go bad in a hurry. I had a cleaning jag on the end of my range rod, patches, and a little cleaner so I could wipe the bore after every shot.

And ALWAYS clean the rifle after you use it,, one round or 500 ,, black powder will mess up the barrel in very short order.

I always used black powder, never used triple 7 or pyrodex.. good luck..

[Muley Gil]

"Plus how often to you wipe the bore. when I was shooting black powder I wiped after every shot. If not the rifle will become hard to load and your group will go bad in a hurry. I had a cleaning jag on the end of my range rod, patches, and a little cleaner so I could wipe the bore after every shot."

Shooting competition with the N-SSA requires that you shoot a number of rounds without cleaning. A good soft lube will allow you to shot a dozen shots or more before cleaning or brushing the bore.

[Stevie]

Like mentioned above...you might try patched round balls available in .570" and .575"

I've never had much luck with conical bullets in a .577/.58 caliber rifled musket. Patched balls you just play with patch thickness and lube for a good fit and smooth loading. They work better with lighter powder charges too(in a long barreled musket).

[old&slow]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

Shooting competition with the N-SSA requires that you shoot a number of rounds without cleaning. A good soft lube will allow you to shot a dozen shots or more before cleaning or brushing the bore.

I never shot N-SSA competition, good to know.
The type black powder matches I use to shoot, the competitor use a somewhat tight ball / patch combo and would wipe after every shot. Kind of a pain at first , but then it became a part of normal operation and you didn't think anything about it..

Once a year, one of the clubs I shot at , would have the ' Old Timer's Shoot'.
One stage was shot with a club supplied musket,, I'm pretty sure it was a old smooth bore.
They only wiped it about every 5 to 8 shots ,, or when it got hard to load. The accuracy actually got better after the 3rd or 4th shot.. You just hoped you were the right place in line so you would get a dirty bore.

I've read about the 58 cilibers and mini-ball quite a bit. But, never messed with them much. I used patched round ball mostly in .32 to .50 caliber. I did have a T/C .50 with shallow rifling that shot the maxi great. But wouldn't shoot a patched round ball worth spit. ( unless you only used about 45 or 50 grains of powder,, 70 to 90 grains would blow your groups to the size of a wash tub)