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09-19-2017, 05:18 PM
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Walther P4
This is at my south FL LGS. I was to pick it up tomorrow, but Irma has caused a month delay.
The P4 is an updated redesigned version of the P38.
Though I like the wood grips, they are after market, and a proper set of black plastic are on their way from Numrich.
This will be my first 9mm since I gladly got rid of a Model 59 some 35 years ago.
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09-19-2017, 06:47 PM
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I have one of those!!!!
A late, lamented friend of mine who lived in Washington State called me one day and said he bought two P4s and one was for me at the great price of $350.00. I guess this was 2008 or 2009. I was like, "P4???" A what? He was the expert so he explained it. But I did know what a P38 was so it wasn't too difficult an explanation. I do know a few things about guns.....
Apparently, the P4 is updated in various ways to make it stronger than the P38. He told me they didn't make all that many of them and there were not that many in the USofA. So I said fine and sent him the money and he sent me the gun.
I only took it to the range once and it was not the most accurate 9mm I ever handled but I think I need to work on that someday, see if I can do better with patience.
Cool gun, though!
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09-19-2017, 07:22 PM
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Wow...that reminds me that somewhere buried in the back of my safe is a "P5". I bought it about 10 years ago, it was an ex German police gun. Looks like yours, and although I shot it some, I cleaned it and stowed it away, and you just reminded me that I have it!!
I don't have any idea what the difference is between a P4 and a P5, using my memory, they seem to look similar, except that mine has black plastic grips. Came in the Walther black plastic box with an extra magazine and a cleaning rod, and the German police holster.
Edit September 20th, 2017...Dug around, and found a couple of old pictures of my P5 for comparison:
Best Regards, Les
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Last edited by les.b; 09-20-2017 at 09:03 AM.
Reason: Add photo
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09-19-2017, 07:37 PM
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Absent Comrade
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Nice looking P4.
I have P1 and they are fun guns to shoot.
Enjoy it.....
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09-19-2017, 07:39 PM
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I read that they made around 7000 P4's, an interim pistol until the P5.
I am told this is a West German police from 70's and 80's.
They are supposed to be accurate, but no proof until I get it to the range.
I shipped a load of 9mm, of varying sorts, down to FL. So, i shall give it a work out.
While looking for grips I found the following research done by someone. The credit is not mine.
Back in the late 70's, Germany was actively looking for a new police pistol.
With the infamous Olympic massacre, and the various Bader Mienhof terrorists groups shooting the country up, the police decided they needed a more modern, high-capacity gun than the old Walther P-38.
The search was on, but Walther didn't have their new models ready yet.
To "fill in" until the new models were ready, in 1975 Walther did a update/redesign of the P-38.
The resulting gun was the P4, sometimes known as the P-38-IV.
The frame was exactly the same as the late P-38, with only the slide and barrel being different.
The barrel was shortened from 5" to 4 1/2".
The major changes were in the slide and safety mechanism.
The slide dispensed with the spring steel top cover which held the rear sight in place, covered the firing pin and loaded chamber pins, and deleted the loaded chamber indicator pin.
The new slide had a solid steel top with the rear sight held on with a screw. This is NOT a windage adjustable sight, contrary to popular belief.
The safety system was changed to a de-cocker.
The P-38 safety was simply spring loaded, so that when it was turned down the hammer was dropped, as usual, but then the safety springs back up in the form of a de-cocker.
The firing pin was changed to move completely out of the path of the hammer, making it impossible for the hammer to touch the firing pin. This eliminated the old problem of the P-38 hammer actually striking the firing pin when the safety was applied.
The hammer was changed to a shorter spurred design, with a hole to prevent it's touching the firing pin unless the trigger was pulled.
Other than the hammer, all frame parts are interchangeable with older versions of the P-38, including many parts with the WWII guns, including grips.
Virtually no slide parts will interchange.
The P4 is a much better design, eliminating the weakness of the top cover assembly, which always had problems with blowing off, scattering internal parts.
The de-cocker and firing pin design eliminated any chance of broken or worn parts allowing the gun to fire when the safety was applied, and the de-cocker insured the gun stayed in a ready to fire mode.
As a fill-in, the P4 was actually superior to the P-38, and was popular with users.
The P4 was only made from 1975 to 1981, with few commercial models imported into the US.
A larger number of ex-police models were imported in the late 1980's, and these were sold at bargain basement prices.
Many if not most of these guns had seen little to no use and were one of the best gun deals ever.
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Last edited by M1A; 09-19-2017 at 07:41 PM.
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09-19-2017, 08:02 PM
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Nice pick up. All it needs is a bird cage flash suppressor and you can join U.N.C.L.E.
: )
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09-19-2017, 08:16 PM
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IIRC the P5 was even shorter and was issued to the British military among other.
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09-19-2017, 08:17 PM
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I used to have a plastic one.
More like a P5.
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Last edited by M1A; 09-19-2017 at 08:18 PM.
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09-19-2017, 08:18 PM
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SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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The P4 was not adopted by a lot of police forces in W. Germany.
Yours has the x-ed out BMI stamp on the right frame, which stands for "Bundesministerium des Innern" = Federal Ministry of the Interior, which controlled federal police agencies. This means it was most likely used by the BGS, the border police.
Within a few years of the development of the P4, the German police trials resulted in the adoption of the P5 (Walther's successor model, by a few states), the P6 (Sig 225, by the federal police and most states), and the P7 (HK PSP, by a few states), and the P4 was phased out of service again.
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09-19-2017, 08:21 PM
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Thanks Absalom.
More good info for it's file.
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09-19-2017, 08:23 PM
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SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LVSteve
IIRC the P5 was even shorter and was issued to the British military among other.
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That was the compact version of the P5, the P5c. And the British only bought a few thousand for protection officers and undercover intelligence operatives in Northern Ireland. I read someplace that there was an overrun of frames with the stamped NATO supply number that ended up used in guns that got sold on the civilian market; they are supposedly very much sought after by collectors and are often (falsely) hyped as "SAS Walthers".
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09-19-2017, 10:13 PM
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There was only 100,000 of the P5's produced and the Dutch police ordered 50,000. Actually trying to buy a mint condition P5 right now, price is a tad on the high side though. Beautiful handguns and top quality though.
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09-20-2017, 08:56 AM
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Absent Comrade
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I have a P5 brand new in the box with all its papers. It's a beautiful handgun and I've never fired it.
I made that purchase on a whim when I bought a P99 marked "Her Majesty's Secret Service MI6 Have never fired this one either!
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09-20-2017, 10:10 AM
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Love my P5. Congrats on your getting your P4!
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09-20-2017, 10:36 AM
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I've always wanted a P4, but never got around to purchasing one. Neat-o!
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09-20-2017, 11:02 AM
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I have a P-6. Love the feel of it.
It has the date of 1970 on it.
It feels like a P-226 but is single stack.
Top quality construction
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09-20-2017, 11:39 AM
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SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchuck
I have a P-6. Love the feel of it.
It has the date of 1970 on it.
It feels like a P-226 but is single stack.
Top quality construction
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The P6 ended up being a lot more "popular" in the US as the civilian P225 and later as surplus than it ever was with the officers who carried it. The German bureaucracy had created a "Pflichtenheft", a catalog of requirements, that most felt contained random size restrictions and other limitations.
A primary purpose was to eliminate consideration of .357 revolvers, which back then, in the absence of effective pistol ammo, most of the emerging SWAT units in Europe were adopting, but which frightened politicians were associating with the US and the "Wild West". So the requirement made the proposed gun so narrow that not only no cylinder, but also no double stack auto could pass muster.
Instead of selling the 15-rd. P226, Sig-Sauer had to shrink down the P220 single stack to the required dimension. That's how the P6/P225 was born.
PS: Are you sure about the 1970 date? That's about when the original P220 came out and several years too early for a P6-marked pistol. The earliest I recall seeing had 78 or 79 dates.
Last edited by Absalom; 09-20-2017 at 11:42 AM.
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09-20-2017, 01:12 PM
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Another short lived German Police Pistol from the 70's was the Walther PP Super in the revived WW2 era 9mm Ultra cartridge. Here is one in 9mm Kz, one of only about 1100 in this caliber, made in '78.
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09-20-2017, 01:15 PM
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Very nice,congrats.
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09-20-2017, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom
"The P6 ended up being a lot more "
PS: Are you sure about the 1970 date? That's about when the original P220 came out and several years too early for a P6-marked pistol. The earliest I recall seeing had 78 or 79 dates.
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I went and checked my P-6,,,and the date on the pistol slide is 2/80.
My memory of the date was wrong.
Also on the slide, frame, and bbl chamber is number 722.
P6 NW 2/80
This is the last 3 numerals of the serial number, so all the parts have matching numbers.
Also the hammer has the "slot"in it,that is to tell you that the pistol has been dropped if this space is closed up from being dropped on the hammer. Mine hasn't been dropped.
Best is that it fits my grip solidly.
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09-20-2017, 05:10 PM
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SWCA Member Absent Comrade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchuck
I went and checked my P-6,,,and the date on the pistol slide is 2/80.
My memory of the date was wrong.
Also on the slide, frame, and bbl chamber is number 722.
P6 NW 2/80
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Ah yes. February 1980 makes a lot more sense. NW stands for Nordrhein-Westfalen (North Rhine-Westphalia to the British), the state where it served. Most surplus P6's have the NW stamp since it is the most populous state, and dumped about 40,000 of those guns when they switched to the Walther P99 DAO in the early 2000s.
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09-22-2017, 02:11 AM
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Just thought I'd add a pic of a couple of my Walthers for those that appreciate them:
This is a pair of P88s. Really nice guns if you like a larger grip frame.
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