I think I cited one that the Supreme Court put forward. Also, have you heard of the Fairness Doctrine? I know it's a Wikipedia link, but it's pretty accurate . . .

Fairness Doctrine - Wikipedia

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I'm speaking of freedom of the press and restriction theron. Not freedom of speech. I don't believe any politician has proposed any restrictions on the press. That was my point, not anything about freedom of speech.

In all the clamoring for more restrictions on the Second Amendment I don't think I have seen the "Fairness Doctrine" FAIRLY employed by the media.

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Bill

Looks like a small sledge hammer on the floor to the right of the purple pillar
Probably used to break out the windows.
I have never seen a "Bump Stock" how do they work? I've got nothing to use one on and can't afford the excess ammo anyway.
Steve W

I consider bump fire devices a waste of ammo and a great way to discover if your cheap AR/AK will look good blown up on Youtube. Fun if you're into that kind of thing. We have also seen they can be devastating in the hands of a bad actor.

All that said I'm from the UK, so I know that when it comes to guns, don't let the legislators get a foot in the door.

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Release the Kraken

The stock and grip are one piece. The rifle sits in that "stock" and up against a spring. When the rifle is fired it slide back inside the stock and the spring pushes it back out. Your finger is still in the same position so the trigger is tripped and another shot is fired repeating the action

Here's a good simple video

See how 'bump stocks' made semi-automatic weapons more like machine guns in the Las Vegas shooting - LA Times

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

It DOES NOT turn a semi into a full auto, the trigger HAS to pulled for every shot.

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the design of the slide fire stock 'force' the finger into the trigger upon recoil As opposed to having to physically 'squeeze' the trigger to fire it? I do not own one nor have used one so I do not know but it seems the design of the stock negates the need to 'squeeze' the trigger.

Definitely. I thought the same thing when they mentioned tripods (but maybe they were actually bi-pods and the media just doesn't know the difference...?).

The last I've read was that he had 23 or so guns in the room, 12 with bump-fire stocks. Nothing I've read has mentioned which weapons were actually used, and that would have been immediately obvious.

One article I saw said that some weapons were "converted". It wasn't clear whether they meant converted to full-auto, or if they meant that bump-fire stocks were installed (you can never really tell what they actually mean when the media is so thoroughly clueless about guns). Very few details have been released...

My error. I stand corrected.full auto weapons can still be purchased if they were manufactured before 1986. New ones since that date are restricted to Class III FFLs and law enforcement. I apologize for the error.

No biggie.

It's quite common for guys at our club who have been around firearms all their life to have no idea about class III stuff. I'm regularly asked how I got a suppressor because they think they're illegal. Or they think the Feds can simply barge into my home whenever they want without a warrant simply because of owning class III... on and on. Myth and misunderstanding about this subject is rife among otherwise well informed gun owners.

My guess is that he probably does realize that.

But... I believe some gun owners suffer the misguided notion that surrendering 2A freedoms somehow preserves 2A freedoms. In other words, if they don't surrender 2A freedoms under the guise of 'common sense' they risk greater loss. Of course history has demonstrated that the 'common sense' anti-gun crowd has an insatiable thirst for taking your 2A freedoms away. Still, it seems fashionable among some gun owners to run to the surrender button in a hopeless effort to placate gun-grabbers. Shortly after Sandy Hook many gun owners were quick to surrender to universal background checks. Just hours after Vegas and now we see gun owners quickly willing to surrender bump fire mechanisms or magazines with capacity of xx.

Nope, actually pushing forward with the support hand is actually what increases the rate of fire with a bump stock. The rifle recoils to the rear letting the trigger reset, pushing the rifle forward facilitates a rhythm pulling of the trigger. The same thing can be done with a standard stock with practice. Bump stock will not get that rhythm without pushing the forend forward.

No matter how I explain it, a semi auto is a semi auto, and not capable of firing more than one round per trigger pull. It is just a very fast mag dump is all it is. In fact high rates of fire can be accomplished with revolvers. Jerry shooting 12 rounds in under 3 seconds. That is an effective fire rate at over 240 rounds per minute.

Should we also outlaw the single action revolver?

How about lever actions?

For all intent and purpose the slide fire is essentially now out of the hands of the public.....slide fire has shut down taking any more orders........so we shall see if they ever come back on line.

I knew someone would get pedantic about that which is why assault rifles was in quotes.

The meaning of words change over time. For example "gay" no longer means lighthearted and fun, when was the last time you heard it used that way?

For most of the US public "assault rifle" means a semiauto rifle with a detachable magazine that looks like a true military assault rifle. When someone describes an AR-15 as an assault rifle I know what they mean, you know what they mean, everyone knows what they mean. So that is what it means. Some obsolete definition in a 50+ year old book somewhere is irrelevant.

If these devices are all the US gun community loses out of this, we should count ourselves lucky.

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Dave

This time . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I know this won't be a popular question, but what are the various rapid-fire devices like Bumpstock good for, except burning through ammo?

If anyone can describe a real purpose for them, I'd like to hear it. As Wee Hooker said, we'll be lucky if they are the only thing we lose because of this crazy guy, and his sick act.

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Loving retirement!

Riddle me this........

Would the banning or regulation of an object make a madman less mad?

.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

A more serious question would be how many rubber bands are out there?

Folks act like techniques to increase rate of fire is something new. It isn't. Here's a vid over a decade old... techniques like this have been around since forever.

Tax Stamp or complete ban on rubber bands?

Had another Senator this morning say "maybe we should revisit the semi auto assault rifles again".
It could get interesting quick.

Read the second amendment, your answer is in the words.

I never paid much attention to them or how much they cost, but here in Florida on a local FTF gun trading site, one is going for $400 and another is “highest offer-text offer to xxx-xxx-xxxx”

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

Exactly!

A "slide" fire or "bump" stock does NOT turn a semi into an auto. The trigger still needs pulled for each shot.

All the stock does is allow the recoil momentum to be used in aiding trigger pull making it faster than most can pull without it. However, practice enough and you could fire just as fast eventually. (Better ban practicing)

It's a novelty, but still, nothing illegal and you didn't hear anything about them until the incident. I have no use for one, but I will not lie down while others lose their right to. Not everyone can afford the real deal, and devices like this give average folks the opportunity to experience "auto like" fire.

Hey, I have no real use for an AR15, and don't own one, maybe I should push for banning them. After all, it wouldn't affect me? That mentality will be the end of us.

For all you who think this stock is now an evil device that must be banned, you should know that a retail piece of equipment is NOT needed to operate a semi-auto like this. Similar concepts can be crafted from household items, and for pretty much any semi-auto.

I watched a guy with a hi-cap Glock and a piece of wood fire it just like an auto. We better ban wood and Glocks next. Or the other examples given, like rubberbands, better ban rubberbands.

I'm amazed to see how many are willing to sell out their brethren just because this issue doesn't affect or pertain to them. I'm also amazed at how many consider themselves "gun" guys. We aren't going to win anything going forward with this "united" front we have.

I would rather live in America with risk and be able to defend myself against that risk, than live in "Safe America" with nothing to defend myself and relying on the Govn't. As we all know criminals don't adhere to the law. The risk is just part of the package living in such a free country. I wouldn't trade it for the world, and ever increasing crazies will not scare me enough to support giving up ANY of those rights.

If ya'll want to live in a "safe" world, I'm sure there's plenty of room in Australia with Red. But if history has any lessons, it's even gun-free countries aren't "safe".

What a waste of ammunition.

Not everyone here is "selling out." Some are just asking questions to inform themselves. It's a discussion among gun owners, not a negotiation.

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Because of the metric system?

You mean faster like a full-auto does?

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Because of the metric system?

One man’s waste is another man’s folly, pleasure, choice.....you can call it whatever you want, but as long as we have choices who cares what the guy does with his ammo.......someone could say that the 10,000s of rounds I have saved up is a waste because I don’t use them....I would call it precautionary......others might call it hoarding but as long as it is legal it is my right to do so.....let us hope it stays a right and not somebody’s idea of a privilege. Once my Slidefires get in I will probably go waste some ammo.....choices that is what makes us free.

Well,
It may come down to a Class III designation and NFA rules
would apply for all of these (rapid fire) trigger assist mechanisms.

Just another tax.........

.


.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Increases the rate of fire, just like the short reset on a Glock. Do you own any Glocks? If you do then do you want them to be banned.

I would support piggy backing a ban on bump fire stocks to the legislature that will de-regulate suppressors. Don't ever give them something without getting something in return.

Jeff Cooper, bless his departed soul, opined many years ago that full-auto fire at some distance for self defense is way less effective than aimed semiauto fire, and that if he were shot at, he'd be less concerned with the auto fire. Fear the marksman rather than the "spray and pray" types.

Most full auto pistols, in MY opinion, are totally useless - barely controllable. Anyone who has fired an H&K VP70 M, Mauser schnellfeur broomhandle or a MAC-10 with its stock folded up in full-auto mode will probably agree on this. The only exceptions I've encountered would possibly be the 9mm H&K MP5A1 or MP5K (stockless) subguns - very smooth closed-bolt roller-locked delay design with little recoil disturbance. Still no match for the stocked versions, though.

The U.S. armed services found that the M14 rifle in full-auto mode was nearly uncontrollable, and they locked out the feature on most of them that were issued. A great battle rifle, but a damned poor machine gun.

Pistol-caliber submachine guns are useful for clearing rooms; for anything else, better tools are usually available.

In short, full-auto is overrated, except when used for firing on an area in a target-rich environment - the LV travesty certainly proved that.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

the slide fire stock was invented by a disabled veteran,

when I first saw the things, one of the first thoughts in my mind was that this could be used in a horrible way, by an idiot

but the second was that I wanted one and after acquiring one I realized that like others here have said it was a waste of ammo. and did not fit at all with my addiction to accuracy, so I sent the stock packing at a local gun show.

the media is so concerned with the GUYS 48 gun arsenal, that I figure they would faint if they ever saw my collection

however again it was the man, not the guns who had evil in his heart

and we cant legislate evil out of existence, we can only prepare and prey.

my LEO son gave a CCW class for a local church last Saturday after the event in Antioch TN, the previous Sunday.

and while at the post office in uniform Monday mailing off the paperwork
the local postmaster asked if he had had a ccw class?

a lady in line asked if his concealed weapon would have helped in Las Vegas, his reply was no, but that most defensive weapon use is in within 21 ft. but if he could have reached a long gun then it would have been a different story, at 450 yds. even shooting uphill he could have put rounds in the 8 ft window to help suppress the shooter

when someone wants to commit savagery there is nothing to stop them until someone is willing to stand in the gap

had the guy rammed a semi at high speed through the wire fence it would have been just as effective look at Paris last year

when the whole story comes out I bet the guy is one who was a narcissist who thought he was better than everyone else and hated that little less deserving people were having such fun and wanted to insure his place in the history books

my prayer is that he was held back at heavens gate and forced to watch his victims enter into heavens glory, then handed to the eternal flames of hell

the reality is that the bump fire stocks will probably be legislated away , even though a well trained trigger puller with a semi can run almost as fast,

I am old enough to remember that you use to have to record purchases of all hand gun ammo even 22 after the high profile shooting of the 1960's

its natural for people to have knee jerk reactions

this time will be no different

The equipment that was used to commit this horrific act
did not cause the perpetrator to go over the edge into insanity.

I understand that this madman was also a licensed pilot.
If he had chosen a plane to attack the concert goers......

Banning or restricting firearms or the accessories for them
will not stop the un-lawful use of same.

I'm oppose to murder, be it with a firearm or the jawbone of an *** or anything in-between.

.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

When did it become mandatory that we as gun owners are required to defend every accessory ever manufactured for use on firearms?

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

The Bump Stock is not in same bracket as Magazines, and stupid
cosmetic limitations. The definition of a automatic weapon is one
that fires multiple times with one pull of the trigger. The Bump
Stock for some reason was approved by BTAF. It seems to me
that it fit the definition perfectly. We should not be having this
discussion, it should never been legal.

We still have people who need educated. A assault rifle is a rifle
that has semi auto and full auto capability, select fire. The civilian
versions of these rifles are not assault rifles they fire in semi auto
mode only.

The fact that this Bump Stock issue is causing arguments in the
pro 2nd group is not helpful. Common sense must be used, this
device has nothing to do with the other issues brought up and
it should be kept separate. If they go after magazines or certain
guns, whether I like them or not, I would not cave to Anti gun
people. This is where you have to question whether you want
to champion the right to own a device that should have never
existed. What I would like to know is the background on the
BTAF allowing this device.

Read and re-read the 2nd amendment. Gun control isn't about guns it's about control. As Obama right had man Rahm Emanuel said said "never let a serious crisis go to waste." They will try use this to their advantage ,Let's stick together and not allow it.

At the risk of being the skunk at the garden party, I’m going to offer a completely different perspective on this argument.

It appears to me that actually abiding with the law isn’t all that popular with some of the people who like to blather a lot about the gun rights of “law-abiding citizens”.

Devices like the Bump stock/slide fire or the old hellfire trigger have been quite clearly designed to circumvent and undermine the law by giving the user near-full auto capability without technically being full auto.

If you don‘t like the law, work to change it. If you don‘t want to do that, work within the law and go Class III if you just have to have full auto.

I’ll never support banning anything, but I find the suggestion that the 2nd Amendment creates some sort of moral obligation to actively defend the “right” of some fringe element to give the law the finger quite ridiculous. These aren’t my “brethren” either.

Yes, being educated on the subject is key.

SlideFire does not at all not fit the definition of an automatic weapon. With the SlideFire installed, for every single discharge the trigger still must be pressed. That has been explained more than once in this thread.

The SlideFire stock has no automatically functioning mechanical parts or springs and performs no automatic mechanical function when installed. The ATF found it to simply be a firearm part and not regulated as a firearm by the GCA or NFA.

As far as background... here is the ATF letter of June 2010 on the subject.

http://www.slidefire.com/downloads/BATFE.pdf

(c) 2017 Associated Press/EarthLink

EarthLink - U.S. News

Everyone is in agreement, NRA included. Smart.

My personal comment on the bump stock/slide fire is that it doesn't matter that a good shooter can rapidly fire his/her semi-auto rifle or pistol, or a cowboy action shooter/Bob Munden can do it with a lever rifle or a single action pistol. That is a physical skill that a person can acquire. A bump stock/slide fire is a contraption designed to circumvent the law by mechanically doing what an internal sear is not allowed to do except in a taxed/regulated Class III weapon. As a rule of thumb the law always says that you cannot do indirectly what you cannot do directly and in this case that maxim is violated by a device that should have been an NFA item in 2010. A smart man invented it, a veteran I am told, and I understand his business acumen and engineering skill and his skill at dodging the regulations and I can admire him for all three.

But in the clarity of hindsight what I said in 2010 when I learned of these devices is still correct - they belong in the NFA regulated category if my little leather Galco wallet covering a 2 shot derringer is an NFA "any other weapon". It is neither sensible nor legally consistent to regulate a chunk of leather and not regulate a device capable of turning a semi-automatic rifle into what very closely resembles and functions as a fully automatic rifle.

Unanimity in Congress, the Senate, the White House, and with NRA support is a good thing this time.

The way I'm reading the Congresscritters babblespeak, "They are considering options regarding 'modifications' that circumvent the spirit of the 1934 NFA regulation." Unfortunately, rubber bands are more efficient, expedient, inexpensive and ubiquitous. As are AR15's. The devil is once again in the details. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

You're living in a dream world. Or some parallel universe. That has about as much chance of happening as I have of walking to Los Angeles and back this afternoon.

Well there ya go...

“The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations,” NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre and Executive Director Chris Cox added in a joint statement.

The only question now is will pro gun legislators and the NRA be able to negotiate removing other gun regulations for such additional regulations, or will this turn out to be just a belly-up capitulation.

Education is key, for bump fire to work you must keep the trigger
depressed. If you had to pull the trigger every time what would
you gain over semi auto mode. The Bump fire stock action
replaces the action of shooter having to pull trigger for each shot.
We have people wanting to argue over something they know
nothing about. If your finger is not in position it would be in while firing, the bump fire won't work. If it did you would have a run away gun, it would fire until empty. The concept is using you trigger finger as a firing stud against returning recoil. I know nothing about legal language that allows
Legal status.

Like it or not, bump stocks will likely end up on the chopping block. I just hope we can manage to get something out of the deal. Complete removal of all NFA fees would work for me. I can live with the extra hassle in terms of regulating them, but that unconstitutional tax really doesn't sit well with me. How long until they impose the same tax on purchasing a standard firearm? Just a bad precedent to let stand in my opinion.

You already pay a Federal Excise Tax (2013) of 11% on most shooting stuff (long guns ammo etc) and 10% on handguns. $50 tax on a $500 Glock, a lot more % than $200 stamp on a $25K Thompson. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

NRA's endorsement of further gun regulation I think will cost them support unless they are able to spin something pro gun from this. I would expect to see some crowing from anti-gun adversaries of the NRA followed by the usual attacks.

The question becomes... what happens if a guy does something similar without a bump fire? Will the NRA again suggest further regulation on a gun you and I own? That's a question I think the NRA needs to get in front of.

Wrong.

The trigger cannot remain depressed. The trigger must be released.

Yes, there are people attempting to discusss this with a lack of knowledge. Let's try to remedy that just a little here.

Watch this vid. You will see how the trigger cannot stay depressed and fire another shot. Notice how the trigger must be released.

Hope this helps.