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  #201  
Old 10-06-2017, 12:22 PM
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Is the Slide fire going to be history? Is the Slide fire going to be history? Is the Slide fire going to be history? Is the Slide fire going to be history? Is the Slide fire going to be history?  
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Originally Posted by WCCPHD View Post
I find it interesting that the gun owners always have to compromise, but the anti's never compromise.

Maybe someone can answer why gun rights are always under attack. The anti's in/out of government are always trying to ban something or place further restrictions on our rights. However, pertaining to all other rights the same group is trying to either expand the rights themselves or to apply them to more and more people/groups.

Just an observation.
Because it's "common sense" of course.
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  #202  
Old 10-06-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by petepeterson View Post
Not everyone here is "selling out." Some are just asking questions to inform themselves. It's a discussion among gun owners, not a negotiation.
I understand what you're saying, and I wasn't referring to everyone here. Some are on other boards even. However, I've seen quite a few "gun" guys openly ready to support legislation and some even drafting letters to officials in support of it. When you're supposedly a member/supporter of the gun community, I consider that selling out. Especially when it's over something as trivial as a SlideFire whose operation can be replicated with a finger, rubberband, piece of wood, etc on just about any semi.

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Originally Posted by jlrhiner View Post
When did it become mandatory that we as gun owners are required to defend every accessory ever manufactured for use on firearms?
It's not mandatory, but you have to look at it as a never ending battle. The anti's will never be happy until guns of all types are illegal. Do you want to help them slowly chip away and continue setting more precedents? So it stands to reason we should support each other even in the face of differing firearms interest.

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Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
I’ll never support banning anything, but I find the suggestion that the 2nd Amendment creates some sort of moral obligation to actively defend the “right” of some fringe element to give the law the finger quite ridiculous. These aren’t my “brethren” either.
I didn't quote your whole message, but SlideFire stocks were completely legal and I'm not sure how you could even insinuate that owners of them are law-breakers or miscreants.

It seems to me you are stereotyping/profiling the folks that may enjoy these items as "bad apples". Saying they are not YOUR brethren. If this is how you view other gun enthusiasts who don't share your same tastes, then fine, I'm glad you're not my brethren too. Classic case of "I'm not interested, so I don't support others interests".

I'm not going to waste much more time, because there will always be those who don't care or just think differently, but this is a forum and everyone's opinion can be given.

My opinion is - United we stand, divided we fall.

Last edited by iPac; 10-06-2017 at 01:16 PM.
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  #203  
Old 10-06-2017, 01:30 PM
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Will they be history? I would bloody well hope so.

After hearing the thump thump firing in Vegas, I finally gave up on persuading my Aussie wife to retire with me in America. Ever.

My last trip to SHOT with her a few years ago, after a 20 year absence from that venue, I thought, "this is what you lot have been spending your time developing? And silencers?! And open carry?!!"

Y'all have lost the plot. To the point where my own country, USA, is no longer welcoming to an American citizen like me. I've avoided unnecessary dangers all my life and it's not going to change now.

God be with you all in your time of need.
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  #204  
Old 10-06-2017, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SC_Mike View Post
"Is the Slide fire going to be history?"

IMHO, no. They may be outlawed but I'm certain there are thousands of such devices out there, all unregistered, and most likely will be changing hands at a premium price on the street if made illegal so if you want one you can still get one. There's a trick with a shoestring or jeans with a belt loop. Are they going to outlaw shoes strings? No, most likely they will try to make semi auto rifles illegal, mag cap restrictions, pistol grips etc.

What I see as more of a problem are the antis, some who know little to nothing about firearms, getting the other antis and the other low firearm information public behind them, including lawmakers and going after drastic changes to owning firearms and their types.

Just my .02.
Way back in the day the shoe string thing was done with the GI .30 carbine, where it worked well because the slide continued forward a bit after the bolt was fully in battery.

However the ATF pretty quickly said "no" on the basis that it was activated by a single pull of the trigger by the shooter, with the subsequent trigger pulls being made by the slide itself.

With the "bump fire" stocks, the ATF applied the same legal logic, that while the rifle might slide back and forth in the stock, essentially throwing the trigger against a stationary finger, it was still the finger doing the "pulling".

The problem is that while the logic regarding the legal elements is correct in both cases, the ATF attorney's lost sight of the bigger picture.

For example, you could do a 30 round mag dump pretty effectively with a .30 carbine. You could even stop it in mid burst by tightening your grip on the stock to trap the string from moving. However that also meant you had to hold the carbine's stock very loosely for it to function, and consequently, it was not practical to aim or control. That made it wildly impractical to use, even in a crime like the Las Vegas shoot.

The same is not the case with a bump fire stock where you can in fact still firmly hold the rifle or carbine. It's not horribly accurate, but against an area target, the resulting dispersion is actually a benefit - just like the cone of fire produced by an M60, an M249 or an M240 machine gun, which are intended, in part, to engage area targets.

In my job I have to work with attorneys every day who for the most part have no clue about the actual use of the things or programs they regulate, and instead base decisions on very narrow reads of statute and regulation. The end result is that they make "legally" sound interpretations that are often entirely at odds with the larger intent of a provision in a law.

That's what they did when they approved bump fire stocks, as despite meeting a narrow legal read of the law, their sole purpose is in fact to accelerate the rate of normal semi-auto fire to levels that are practically indistinguishable from full auto weapons that a) must be registered, and b) have been illegal to make (for civilian sales) since 1986. ATF massively screwed that one up, and he irony is that now law abiding gun owners are going to pay for their error.

For what it's worth, ATF did the same thing with their approval of "braces" for AR and AK style pistols. They approved them, knowing they could and would be shouldered, just like an SBR, but apparently missed the fact that people would want to use them to build "SBRs" without having to register them.

Then ATF got really stupid trying to fix the mess they'd created, and determined that mere "use" could change the category of a firearm, and that shouldering a brace equipped pistol made it an SBR. The industry response was along the lines of "if I use a can of corn as a hammer, then the can of corn becomes a hammer".

A larger issue was that the determination that use outside the original design intent determines category, if allowed to be followed to it's natural conclusion, would have potentially made it illegal to shoot your 1911 with two hands - since it had been designed so that it could be fired with just one hand, and two hand use could arguably be a "misuse" intended to make it more accurate and more deadly.

A little too late in the process sanity reigned and they re-determined that "use" doesn't define the category of a firearm.

Thus, you can in fact shoulder a brace equipped pistol, without ending up with an SBR - provided 1) you did not modify the brace, 2) the receiver has been a "rifle", and 3) you did not intend to build an SBR in the first place.

The saving grace with ATF's pistol brace fiasco was that SBRs and brace equipped pistols are almost never used in crimes.

The risk of course is that prior to the Las Vegas shooting, the same thing could be said about bump fire stocks. All it will take is for some nut to use a brace equipped pistol in a mass shooting, and those will be on the banned list as well.

That's actually unfortunate, as a brace equipped AR-15 can be a very useful tool. It doesn't have the same limitations when it comes to applicability under a concealed carry permit. In addition, it does not have the same limitations and hoops to jump through in terms of interstate transport, and it's legal in states that just don't allow SBRs.

Had the Las Vegas shooting not occurred, I suspect suppressors would have in fact been de-registered (they are generally not outlawed in Europe (in countries that allow guns)and are in fact encouraged to reduce noise complaints. Once that proved a non problem, I suspect SBRs would have been de-registered not to long after, given their almost complete absence in the crime stats. Now neither will be de-registered anytime soon.

Banning them also won't keep them out of the hands of criminals. For example, Australia's gun ban has been in place for 21 years now, yet in 2016 firearms were used in 31% of homicides. That isn't close to replacing the knife as the most common weapon for homicide in Australia, but it might explain why their rates of violent crime have increased and in particular why their rate of sexual assault is four times the rate in the US.

Australia had another gun amnesty in 2017 to try to get guns off the street. If anyone thinks a gun ban would work in the US, where we have a) way more guns, b) more violence in general due to more densely populated areas, and c) much more porous borders, they need to re-think it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drm50 View Post
The Bump Stock is not in same bracket as Magazines, and stupid
cosmetic limitations. The definition of a automatic weapon is one
that fires multiple times with one pull of the trigger. The Bump
Stock for some reason was approved by BTAF. It seems to me
that it fit the definition perfectly. We should not be having this
discussion, it should never been legal.

We still have people who need educated. A assault rifle is a rifle
that has semi auto and full auto capability, select fire. The civilian
versions of these rifles are not assault rifles they fire in semi auto
mode only.

The fact that this Bump Stock issue is causing arguments in the
pro 2nd group is not helpful. Common sense must be used, this
device has nothing to do with the other issues brought up and
it should be kept separate. If they go after magazines or certain
guns, whether I like them or not, I would not cave to Anti gun
people. This is where you have to question whether you want
to champion the right to own a device that should have never
existed. What I would like to know is the background on the
BTAF allowing this device.
I agree with you in terms of the bump fire stock being something that clearly circumvented the overarching intent of GCA 1934 requiring registration of full auto weapons, and the FOPA of 1986 banning the building of more full auto weapons for civilian use.

I also agree that bump fire stocks are posing a major problem, as in theory we don't want to cave to the anti-gun camp by sacrificing a lamb, but on the other hand we're not going to win any points by trying to refute the common sense reality of what a bump fire stock actually does - i.e. replicate full auto fire to the point that it makes the semi and full auto a distinction without a difference.

Worse, bump fire stocks do indeed put semi auto rifles at risk, as by adding a bump fire stock you can readily convert a semi-auto rifle into one that produces the same effect as a full auto rifle. That won't play well with anyone.

Last edited by BB57; 10-06-2017 at 01:54 PM.
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  #205  
Old 10-06-2017, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jlrhiner View Post
When did it become mandatory that we as gun owners are required to defend every accessory ever manufactured for use on firearms?
It isn't mandatory here if that's what you're asking.

In general, I would suggest it's the duty of every American, including gun owners, to read and understand the Constitution. If more folks did this I believe the default position would be to defend against all Federal 2A infringements instead of picking and choosing the infringement flavor of the week for capitulation.
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  #206  
Old 10-06-2017, 02:03 PM
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You're three times more likely to die in a car crash than getting killed by a gun in the US. Better walk to work buddy, Australia's automotive death rate adjusted for population is comparable to the US.

In the US, if you don't live in a high crime, or gang area, your chances of being murdered are infinitesimal.

And of the gun deaths in the US, even after this mass shooting make up less than 2% of all gun deaths in the US.

This whole thing is alarmist, reactionist garbage.
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  #207  
Old 10-06-2017, 02:34 PM
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Because it's "common sense" of course.
It may be common sense, but I'm betting "its for the children."
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  #208  
Old 10-06-2017, 02:47 PM
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Could be prohibited in many states
Might even get done in by Congress

Don't have one and would be fine to see it go

I also have no problem limiting centerfire rifle mags to 10 and pistol mags to 10, 12 or 15
I don’t have a Shockwave, a circumvention of the NFA, and think they’re useless and need to go.

See how that works?
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Old 10-06-2017, 04:15 PM
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I don’t have a Shockwave, a circumvention of the NFA, and think they’re useless and need to go.

See how that works?
Yikes!

I hope none of those rifles in Vegas had a 16in barrel. Those of us with carbines will be accused of circumventing SBR regs by a fraction of an inch.
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  #210  
Old 10-06-2017, 04:42 PM
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Well, a new in plastic Bump stock just sold on Gunbroker for $1250 and $1500 with Buy Now. If the Feinstein bill is passed as it is, they will have to turn it in or hide it from the ATF. But also, if the Feinstein bill passes as is, drop in triggers for AR's will be history, unless the language is changed from what it is now showing.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/705217546

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/705047603
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  #211  
Old 10-06-2017, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jsfricks View Post
Well, a new in plastic Bump stock just sold on Gunbroker for $1250 and $1500 with Buy Now. If the Feinstein bill is passed as it is, they will have to turn it in and hide it from the ATF. But also, if the Feinstein bill passes as is, drop in triggers for AR's will be history, unless the language is changed from what it is now showing.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/705217546

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/705047603
Well then, maybe a person does have to be insane if they'll pay that much for one.
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
It isn't mandatory here if that's what you're asking.

In general, I would suggest it's the duty of every American, including gun owners, to read and understand the Constitution. If more folks did this I believe the default position would be to defend against all Federal 2A infringements instead of picking and choosing the infringement flavor of the week for capitulation.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. So, a question;

If Vegas had not happened, and ATF issued a ruling to the effect of "we've continued to review bump-fire devices and have come to the conclusion that they serve only to circumvent the GCA of 1934. Therefore, they are deemed to be an NFA item and must be registered or surrendered." Would there have been "the line in the sand" drawn for this issue? Or would most of us have went "Ehh, they're right" and went on about our business?
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Old 10-07-2017, 08:22 AM
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I don’t have a Shockwave, a circumvention of the NFA, and think they’re useless and need to go.

See how that works?
I have to say the first thing that came to my mind when I first saw a Shockwave is "how is that thing not Title 2?". Well it's 26" long and doesn't have a vertical grip or a shoulder stock, that's how.

Defacto autofire from rifles greatly increases the difficulty of providing security to mass gathering events, since it just takes one nut with a plan to produce battlefield type carnage. The general populace simply won't stand for that and if all that comes out of this is a ban on slide fire stocks we are lucky.
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:10 AM
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There's the "Rule of Law" and the "Intent of Law".

I'm siding with the "Intent of Law" on this one....
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  #215  
Old 10-07-2017, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bushmaster1313 View Post
Could be prohibited in many states
Might even get done in by Congress

Don't have one and would be fine to see it go

I also have no problem limiting centerfire rifle mags to 10 and pistol mags to 10, 12 or 15
I don’t have a Shockwave, a circumvention of the NFA, and think they’re useless and need to go.

See how that works?
I do see how that works. It's a sad fact of life that gun owners tends to fragment based on "what I like or don't like" or "what I feel I need or don't need" while the anti-2A crowd never fragments or compromises on anything. They march together with a unified anti-2A message and it's how they have been so successful in getting laws passed against us.

I happen to live in MA and it's a certainty that a bump stock ban with a life prison sentence attached (no, not a joke) is going to pass here... and that's not even the worse part. The worse part is that they are going to outlaw our pre-ban magazines as well... sort of an add-on bonus for them... a "2Fer" as they call it.

So to the instant cavers: Beware about how your own state goes about banning these evil bump stocks that you say you don't want or need or even understand. You may find that stuff that you do care about or do feel you need might go down the drain with the bump stocks. I see more states including magazine restrictions with their bump stock bans for certain. Might even trigger another national ban. Hope you can live with 10 rounds or less... or ammo restrictions... or whatever else some other gun owner feels he or she is willing to give up to another new ban.

Last edited by TTSH; 10-07-2017 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:04 AM
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I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. So, a question;

If Vegas had not happened, and ATF issued a ruling to the effect of "we've continued to review bump-fire devices and have come to the conclusion that they serve only to circumvent the GCA of 1934.Therefore, they are deemed to be an NFA item and must be registered or surrendered." Would there have been "the line in the sand" drawn for this issue? Or would most of us have went "Ehh, they're right" and went on about our business?
It's not a mind-bending exercise for those who understand that the GCA of 1968 and NFA in 1934 are both infringements and so is what flows from it.

Most folks? It's been my observation that most pay near zero attention to these things. Like I mentioned earlier, it's not uncommon for even well seasoned gun owners at my club to act surprised when they see a silencer, having lived their entire life thinking they were illegal to own. There has been similar misunderstanding and myth displayed in this thread. If nothing else, perhaps this thread has helped a little.

Cheers.
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:29 AM
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It's not a mind-bending exercise for those who understand that the GCA of 1968 and NFA in 1934 are both infringements and so is what flows from it.

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Old 10-09-2017, 08:24 PM
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I don’t have a Shockwave, a circumvention of the NFA, and think they’re useless and need to go.

See how that works?
I got two, because I can, because the Second Amendment says I can. FU . . .

See how that works?
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:28 PM
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I got two, because I can, because the Second Amendment says I can. FU . . .

See how that works?
I agree but its like taxes, some say the 16th amendment was not ratified, but don't pay and they still take your home.
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  #220  
Old 10-09-2017, 08:31 PM
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I agree but its like taxes, some say the 16th amendment was not ratified, but don't pay and they still take your home.
No, it's not like taxes. And the 16th Amendment was ratified. Take your tinfoil hat off . . .
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:32 PM
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No, it's not like taxes. And the 16th Amendment was ratified. Take your tinfoil hat off . . .
If they ban them, and its a turn them in or destroy them and you are caught with one, you will do time. See how that works?
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:34 PM
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How do we keep them out of the hands of the MS 13 crowd, gang bangers and drug cartel people not to mention jihadists living here in America?
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:35 PM
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If they ban them, and its a turn them in or destroy them and you are caught with one, you will do time. See how that works?
They're legal. See how that works . . . ?
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:36 PM
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They're legal. See how that works . . . ?
So was the Atkins Accelerator and then they banned it, if you have one and are caught you get 10 years. If congress bans ownership and does not grandfather it in your SOL.
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:38 PM
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So was the Atkins Accelerator and then they banned it, if you have one and are caught you get 10 years. If congress bans ownership and does not grandfather it in your SOL.
I'll take the risk. Thanks for looking out for me . . .
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:41 PM
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I'll take the risk. Thanks for looking out for me . . .
Not looking out for anyone. The facts are the facts. The Atkins accelerator was deemed legal by ATF, several months later they said it was not legal and you either had to destroy it or turn it in. If your caught with one today you go up river. Atkins has revised it but it does not work well at all. But the point is you can bury it, hide it or if you have enough land where no one will know you can shoot it. But you can also be like that with the actual parts of a full auto. You can buy them but not install them.
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  #227  
Old 10-10-2017, 12:17 AM
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"To me bump firing and large capacity magazines only wastes ammo."

That IS afterall, the whole point, DUH!
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  #228  
Old 10-10-2017, 01:11 AM
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Not looking out for anyone. The facts are the facts. The Atkins accelerator was deemed legal by ATF, several months later they said it was not legal and you either had to destroy it or turn it in. If your caught with one today you go up river. Atkins has revised it but it does not work well at all. But the point is you can bury it, hide it or if you have enough land where no one will know you can shoot it. But you can also be like that with the actual parts of a full auto. You can buy them but not install them.
Your description above is not totally accurate. First of all it was an Akins Accelerator stock. There was no requirement to turn in or destroy. Unlike a Slide Fire stock, this one had a spring that enabled it to function. When ATF reversed their ruling on it, they required owners to remove the spring and send it to ATF. So, you had a choice, identify yourself and turn in the spring or not turn in the spring and hope that ATF didn't already know you had the stock. I turned in the spring, but still have the stock. It is totally useless, but a reminder of how things can change. As far as Akins revising the stock but not working very well, I've got news for you, the original design was not that reliable. Some got the hang of it, I never did. Now the Slide Fire and others like it, is very easy to master. Too easy. I remember the first video I saw of one, my comment was, "you gotta be kidding me", that won't last long. It just amazes me how ATF rules on things. There was no option to register Akins stocks. They're most likely will not be with bump fire devices either.
Okay, I'm off my soap box now!
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  #229  
Old 10-10-2017, 06:27 AM
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Your description above is not totally accurate. First of all it was an Akins Accelerator stock. There was no requirement to turn in or destroy. Unlike a Slide Fire stock, this one had a spring that enabled it to function. When ATF reversed their ruling on it, they required owners to remove the spring and send it to ATF. So, you had a choice, identify yourself and turn in the spring or not turn in the spring and hope that ATF didn't already know you had the stock. I turned in the spring, but still have the stock. It is totally useless, but a reminder of how things can change. As far as Akins revising the stock but not working very well, I've got news for you, the original design was not that reliable. Some got the hang of it, I never did. Now the Slide Fire and others like it, is very easy to master. Too easy. I remember the first video I saw of one, my comment was, "you gotta be kidding me", that won't last long. It just amazes me how ATF rules on things. There was no option to register Akins stocks. They're most likely will not be with bump fire devices either.
Okay, I'm off my soap box now!
BATFE DECIDES THE AKINS ACCELERATOR™ TO BE A MACHINEGUN

Akins Group Inc. regrets to announce that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has reversed its position and has decided the Akins Accelerator™ to be a machinegun conversion kit, thereby subjecting it to strict regulation under the Gun Control Act (GCA) and National Firearms Act (NFA).
I am not sure if you have to turn the whole unit in or if just by removing the spring parts and sending that with your name and address to ATF is enough. I could call before I made a decision. What should I do if I am in possession of an Akins Accelerator? — NFA Gun Trust Lawyer Blog — July 5, 2008

The Akins is actually back after being modified with no springs. From what I have seen they do not work near as well as before. As for the BRS they work, they just work. All this it takes a lot of practice to make them work is BS. They work.

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  #230  
Old 10-10-2017, 06:52 AM
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BATFE DECIDES THE AKINS ACCELERATOR™ TO BE A MACHINEGUN
With so many of our fellow gunowners willingly ready to bend over and take it, the only question left is whether we are better off with the BATFE reversing its approval and banning the offending item du jour that way... or having Congress ban it through new legislation. Which is the least risky or least damaging to us long-term? Which do you think is going to happen?

In my own state, I am screwed anyway so I suppose it shouldn't matter to me. They are going to double up on whatever the Federal government does just so they can make the penalty even worse... i.e., life in prison for possession. Incredible, but true.
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  #231  
Old 10-10-2017, 07:11 AM
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With so many of our fellow gunowners willingly ready to bend over and take it, the only question left is whether we are better off with the BATFE reversing its approval and banning the offending item du jour that way... or having Congress ban it through new legislation. Which is the least risky or least damaging to us long-term? Which do you think is going to happen?

In my own state, I am screwed anyway so I suppose it shouldn't matter to me. They are going to double up on whatever the Federal government does just so they can make the penalty even worse... i.e., life in prison for possession. Incredible, but true.
I don't feel and this is only my opinion that the ATF will reverse itself on this. These have been deemed legal for a long time. Several years. Many thousands out there. The AA was out for only about 6 months before the reversal. There are a lot of republicans who are saying it needs to be banned. I am hoping that if congress bans it they make a provision for grandfathering or that it is not banned but NFA and you get the first tax stamp free to register it. If its banned bury it or hide it well or destroy it. Not worth the trouble.
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Old 10-10-2017, 07:39 PM
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Default Slide Fire News

Slide Fire Solutions of Moran, Texas is now being sued by The Brady Center.

Fostech Outdoors, of Seymour, Indiana, who makes slide fire stocks under license from Slide Fire has not been named in any lawsuits. Yet.

Neither company is responding to messages.

Both companies have suspended sales until further notice.

Jeremiah Cottle, inventor and president of Slide Fire is not answering any questions at this time.

The lawsuit seeks financial renumeration for victims' therapy, mental distress, and treatment. The suit also seeks punitive damages, but no dollar amount has been mentioned. Yet.

The suit will probably move forward in some form or another. If not the one from the Brady Center, then lawsuits will be filed by who-knows-how-many victims. This could drag out in the courts for years, and could spell the end for both companies.

Quoting from CNN-Money:

"Bump stocks have been selling out around the country since the Mandalay Bay massacre. Some retailers say that sales are driven by the fear of consumers that gun control legislation will ban bump stocks.

Legislators of both parties have suggested tighter controls or outright bans on bump stocks. In an unusual move, the National Rifle Association, which generally opposed all gun control, has said bump stocks should be subject to 'additional regulations.'"

I wasn't planning on commenting any further in this thread, but with all the speculation, disinformation, and thread drift going on in this thread, I thought some facts might interest some people. I said "might".
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  #233  
Old 10-10-2017, 07:43 PM
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I think they are gone. I don't know how far they will go but BFS I think will be banned.
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  #234  
Old 10-11-2017, 09:59 AM
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Which is the least risky or least damaging to us long-term? Which do you think is going to happen?
Good question.

The ATF has reviewed this device more than once and concluded it does not meet the criteria for regulation as defined by the GCA or NFA. They put their determination in writing. End of story... right? So... if the ATF bends to outside pressures vs the word of law then what does that ultimately mean for tomorrow? Is the GCA and NFA now 'living documents' determined by a whim of the political moment and a stooge with a pen at the Department of Justice?

If Congress writes a separate law going after 'rate of fire' as does Feinstien's proposed bill--- “It shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, manufacture, possess a trigger crank, a bump fire device or any accessory that functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semi-automatic rifle", what new can of worms will that open?

While I think no additional laws or regulations are the answer, my answer to the question is that Congress makes law. That's what the legislative branch is supposed to do.
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  #235  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:00 AM
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Good question.

The ATF has reviewed this device more than once and concluded it does not meet the criteria for regulation as defined by the GCA or NFA. They put their determination in writing. End of story... right? So... if the ATF bends to outside pressures vs the word of law then what does that ultimately mean for tomorrow? Is the GCA and NFA now 'living documents' determined by a whim of the political moment and a stooge with a pen at the Department of Justice?

If Congress writes a separate law going after 'rate of fire' as does Feinstien's proposed bill--- “It shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, manufacture, possess a trigger crank, a bump fire device or any accessory that functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semi-automatic rifle", what new can of worms will that open?

While I think no additional laws or regulations are the answer, my answer to the question is that Congress writes law. That's what the legislative branch is supposed to do.
The Feinstien bill would make it so broad that triggers designed to lighten trigger pull would be banned or could be seen as illegal. You can bump fire guns using a rubber band or piece of wood with a bolt put through it or a finger in your belt loop. Does the bump fire make it easier sure, but how do you ban bump fire without going after semi autos? There are 10 republicans who have signed on to the Florida Rep bill in the house. Is there enough to pass it and will the white house sign it? I have no idea but the NRA folding like a hookers dress is not good. I am hoping they regulate them and make them NFA before banning them out right. There have been many thousands sold, how do you get them back? You know many will be burying them and or hiding them away. At least if they are regulated by NFA and you have so long to get them into the system giving the first tax stamp free most people would rather have something they can actually sell and use then something that is illegal. Even if they close the door on new manufactured ones. I don't want any new law but to just ban it retro is a horrible idea.
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:53 AM
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The Feinstien bill would make it so broad that triggers designed to lighten trigger pull would be banned or could be seen as illegal.
Exactly. Aftermarket triggers that are lighter and a shorter reset enhance the operator's ability to increase rate of fire over a GI trigger. That would well fit definitions in Senator's proposed bill.

If you consider that some want the ATF to interpret a SlideFire stock to fit the legal definition of a machine gun... interpretations derived from Fienstein's bill could go in a lot of directions.

That said, I'm very much against the ATF dreaming up a different determination on the SlifeFire, morphing into a political sockpuppet.
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Old 10-13-2017, 11:25 AM
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I'm torn when it comes to discussions like this. I'm against banning things, and against giving up stuff because of the slippery slope argument.

But I wish our side would use some judgement on things like this, too. It gets very hard to defend bumpfire stocks as anything more than novelties, and whatever short-term gain is made by adding them to the market might well be offset if/when the anti-gun side gains the upper hand.

Objectively, yes, one can bumpfire simply with a shoestring or rubber band, if one has a semi-auto. You can't ban shoestrings and rubber bands... so that leaves the semi-auto rifle, and high capacity magazines. Canada limits mag capacity to 5 rds, I think. Get enough public outcry and we might face that.

I think the NRA is looking right at that scenario, which is why they "caved".
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  #238  
Old 10-13-2017, 11:32 AM
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Paul Ryan said he would not bring up any bills on banning BFS. We could dodge a bullet. I would like to see them go under NFA only because it would stop a ban next time. Even if they said no new ones manufactured and they come under AOW if you want to put them on a gun.
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  #239  
Old 10-15-2017, 12:20 AM
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How do we keep them out of the hands of the MS 13 crowd, gang bangers and drug cartel people not to mention jihadists living here in America?
Put gang bangers including those in MS13 in jail. Jihadists too. As for the cartels...DONT LET THE ATF HAVE ANY (lets see, naming an ill concieved sting after a video game, what could possibly go wrong.)

Really, I mean how do we keep Charlie Manson out of your cutlery drawer or Bernie Madoff out of your child's piggy bank...
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