For about 3 decades I have been trying explain to people that "assault rifles" are not machine guns and cannot be easily converted to full-auto. I realize a slide stock is not true full-auto. But there is no way I will ever be able to convince anyone that heard the video that this guy did not successfully convert his gun to full auto. The effect was certainly the same.

The general public is so opposed to full auto guns being available a ban on sales of devices designed to simulate full auto is inevitable. Probably not with the current president and congress but Republicans are not going to be in power forever.

Rather than fight a losing battle I would rather see the Hearing Protection Act amended to include a ban on future sales of slide stocks and cranks. Most of the gun enthusiasts I know always oppose giving up anything but in this case we would be gaining more with suppressors than we would be giving up with Slide fire stocks. I doubt the NRA would support any sort of compromise but Trump does like to make deals.

What common sense? That these things are toys and gimmicks? I agree that they are but not with the common sense .... because like I said, what's rational to you is a gimmick to me. Case in point....the Shockwave shotgun, the Taurus Judge....all gimmicks. All toys....TO ME! Obviously not to others. I bet if you list all the firearms you have I'll find at least one gimmick toy. So by your own words it should be common sense that this is banned?

What about accessories such as scopes? Common sense tells us we don't need them.

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We wouldn't gain anything. We get a suppressor which not everyone wants. I have no use for one. I have shot plenty of them, here's one of me shooting just this weekend.

Still....I have no interest in one. I'd rather pay $20 for hearing protection. Now, this doesn't mean I'm against people owning them. What I'm against is giving something up to own them. Because it's slide fire today, it's mag capacity next time. Eventually it's your suppressor and everything else. Remember 1968? 1994?

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So the simple act of shipping trumps mag capacity and accessories? In that case I'm all for it as long as there are no more semi auto rifles in rim or center fire. Reasonable common sense. Ship your single shot any which way you like!

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If I am more knowledgeable than you, it's in the area of basic English skills, specifically reading comprehension.

All Slide Fires are bump fire stocks, not all bump fire stocks are Slide Fires.

Or did you really think that Jessie meant that only Slide Fires would be banned, and not any other bump fire stocks?

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TEAM DNF

Here's how I look at this. You give up something to get something. Some apparently are willing to give up a lot more than others. Who needs that many rounds?

Well...... anyone remember the Dunblane Massacre in 1996? Not that long ago! The killer used a Browning HiPower and a S&W model 19!!! What happened then? England lost their rights to firearms! Now look at their knife acts! Their knives are treated almost like our handgun laws.

Look at the US gun control act of 1968. That started because of a surplus bolt action rifle. We keep letting things slide and soon enough the next one will be the loss of hunting rifles because some nut job used one to kill

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You really want to ship your guns through the post office....I can barely get my mail delivered to the right mail box and rarely do my packages ever escape unscathed.....not to mention the stolen items from our rural boxes the postal inspectors simply shrug at..........no thanks. I will stick to FedEx.

You do realize that this is pointless right? With a little practice you can reload a magazine fed rifle or pistol in not much more than a second.

So...once that becomes obvious and someone does a mass shooting with low capacity magazines, they'll be screaming to ban semi-auto rifles and pistols (if they don't get the Axe this time around.

The irony here is that I actually enjoy shooting semi-auto pistol qualification courses with a revolver. I drop a single point on the FBI Q course on stage 3 with the 8 rounds in 8 seconds at 7 yards as I have to do a reload. I can shoot it cleanly however with a 7 shot 686+.

So...once semi-autos are banned and someone does a mass shooting with a revolver, they'll ban speed loaders, and perhaps also "high capacity" revolvers that hold more than 6 rounds.

-----

Then of course after all this banning we'll still have a problem. Yesterday, I checked the Australian Bureau of Statistics data on homicides in 2016. Despite the gun ban being in place for 20 years, fully 31% of homicides were committed with firearms.

The fact that law abiding citizens turn in firearms when they are banned while criminals do not explains much of that. It also explains why the violent crime rates in Australia have increased since 1996. For example, the rate of sexual assault has risen from 74 per 100,000 in 1996 to 100 per 100,000 in 2016 in Australia, compared to just 24 in the US, where the rate has been steadily decreasing.

The decreasing rate of sexual assault in the US is interesting when you consider that the fastest growing demographic for concealed carry permits is black women, followed closely by women and blacks in general. Just guessing here, but armed women may be harder to assault than unarmed women - or perhaps men just don't even try when the woman is packing.

Banning high capacity magazines isn't going to address the underlying issues that lead to shootings like this, it'll just lead to more and more people being disarmed and less able to defend themselves.

It wasn't just Bill Ruger.

Significant portions of GCA 1968 were brought to us and fully supported by our very own American gun companies. As an industry, they saw the GCA 68 importation restrictions as a way to reduce competition and improve their market share - and lobbied accordingly.

In the context of bump fire stocks I agree with you. I have no purpose for them, and they fill no real sporting purposes other than dumping ammo (inaccurately) at the range.

On the other hand....

I shot M14s and M1As in service rifle matches in the 1980s and switched to the M16 in the early1990s. I also built a flat top AR-15, heavy barrel varmint rifle in the same time frame - and at the time we were milling off A1 carry handles and attaching a weaver rail.

That made the AR-15 one of the most useful rifles I owned for "sporting purposes" - yet I constantly heard that the AR-15 had no "sporting purpose", by people who personally did not use them for sporting purposes.

In fact, the NRA sold the black rifle crowd down the river when they accepted the AWB in exchange for some guarantees on hunting access for their predominantly Elmer Fudd membership.

And that's the problem with deciding that something has no sporting purpose just because it doesn't trip your trigger (pun intended).

And let's not forget the last time we compromised

"Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986", which was labeled and billed as good for gun owners but in fact was mostly a defeat. Sure, it provided some modest legal protections for interstate travel, except that several states completely ignore it and there seems to be no legal repercussion against them. It gave up a lot and set the tone for a wave of restrictions in the following 8 years.

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Ban bump fire mechanisms in trade for taking silencers off the NFA list? Gun owners are such poor deal makers....

An example of a compromise would be to put bump fire mechanism on the NFA list for taking silencers off.

Common sense...
no one needs...

Just one more to go... it's for the children.

I would think it better if they left silencers alone but eliminate anything automatic, with some exceptions, like collectables. I think it would also be a good idea that any auto weapon that is sold to civilians as a semi auto should be modified to make it very difficult to restore it to full auto. Any device that can make a gun full auto should be outlawed from import, manufacture or sales. Sure, this can be bypassed by a determined criminal, but at least make them work hard for it and don't give them a free pass.

My trigger finger should be outlawed because I have a 9mm carbine that I can shoot like an auto.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I do not think that is true. But a change is coming, just not a sea change for most of us.

There will be a great deal of gnashing of teeth and cries for more laws. Then it will pass over except for the ATF rule change that I see coming.

Here's my point:

In order to legally carry my little High Standard .22 WMR derringer in its leather holster I had to register it with the ATF because, while alone it is just a chunk of leather, when snapped around the gun it makes the gun totally invisible so ATF decided it was an "AOW", "any other weapon", requiring a $5.00 tax stamp and their approval accordingly. There are many similar holsters for little guns but only this one totally covers the weapon. All the others usually wrap around the tiny pistols' frames but leave the slides exposed. A derringer doesn't have a slide so it is easy to cover up, especially this derringer due to the lack of a trigger guard. Silly, but true. I believe these holsters have been discontinued because these guns are very rare today.

To expand the point in case someone here is unaware of these things....

Certain other items have AOW status for a 5 buck tax stamp. All other NFA items (National Firearms Act of 1934 - the Bonnie & Clyde/Al Capone law), which in general are suppressors, short barreled rifles and certain short barreled shotguns, and full automatic weapons, require a $200.00 tax stamp. The stamp is cheap today; it was not in 1934. The automatic guns are VERY expensive. And a few years ago transfers of full automatic weapons were barred completely except between Class III Federal Firearms Dealers and law enforcement (and military, but that's different). Very often law enforcement departments buy their weapons through Class III dealers and not directly from the manufacturers. Class III FFLs can transfer such weapons amongst themselves but it is not exactly a booming business. So, as a general rule, except for some grandfathered guns, no fully automatic weapons have been transferred into "civilian" hands in a very long time.

Thus, our Las Vegas murderer could not have purchased a legal, fully automatic rifle or other "machine gun".

However, that leaves several options.

1. Manufacture your own, from scratch, using material and parts bought locally. If you do then you are not engaged in interstate commerce and the Federal statutes don't apply. I know that sounds crazy but it is correct legally.

The Las Vegas madman bought all of his guns legally. So that's out.

2. Illegally modify a semi-automatic rifle to fire automatically. With a little skill it can be accomplished.

We may yet learn that he did this.

3. Buy a "bump" attachment/"bump stock".

EarthLink - Top News

(c) 2017 AP and EarthLink

This is very likely what he had; news stories clearly suggest this.

=============================

When I first heard about these bump stocks I exclaimed, "That cannot be legal", only to be told that the ATF already ruled that they were legal.

So, my little lump of leather around my little two-shot derringer requires a Federal tax stamp but a stock that can be attached to a semi-auto rifle that essentially makes it full auto is legal because it affects the way the fingers hit the trigger and not the internal mechanism.

HOW STUPID IS THAT???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now you can bet they'll ban them under the 1934 NFA, now that they let that horse out of the barn. I'm pretty close to a purist in re not wanting anything banned but, still, if you have laws on the books that ban this or that how does an attachment like that get past the geniuses at the ATF?

The net result that I see coming is two fold:

1. All bump stocks, by whatever similar mechanism or name, will be put under the NFA and require a $200.00 tax stamp. There will be a grace period but ALL of them will be required to be "registered" with the ATF.

2. All legally owned "machine guns"/"assault rifles"/"full auto handguns", already tax stamped, are headed for a ban. Not the large capacity magazines, not the MSRs (modern sporting rifles), but the full autos are headed for the chopping block.

The weird thing is, I think the NRA will embarrass itself if it opposes these two moves. Time will tell.

Since the question is "is it" rather than "should it" go away, my answer is yes. The legislation which has already been introduced will probably sail through both houses and be signed. The Hearing Protection Act will, in all likelihood, also never see the light of day again, resting in a drawer with national reciprocity.

The political reality is that an event of this magnitude will result in some kind of legislation. I was amazed Pelosi's bill wasn't just the old Assault Weapons Ban with bumps and cranks tacked on. I don't like it, but this ain't the hill I'm willing to die on. If any of you want to, have at it.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

To me an 'assaiult rifle' is the selectalbe full auto that is used by military, police, etc. I consider something that looks like an m16 that is semi auto to be a 'military pattern rifle'. Making it 'military pattern' doesn't make it any different from any other semi rifle.

One point of difficulty is CAPACITY and reloading time. I would like this to be left alone because there are all kinds of ways to get around it IF you are a determined criminal.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I agree, but to the many folks here who think "Assault Weapon" is some recent creation of an anti-gun media, all I can say is they must not have read many gun rags a couple of decades ago.









I think Guns and Ammo used to have a regular Assault Weapon column, back when Mel Tappan and the survivalist crowd had a strong presence in the gun mags.

I think its a dumb term, too, but it's not new and its not like we (gun people) didn't think it was cool for a long time.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

It may not be the hill you are willing to die on, but what about the guy that has sunk his living into the slidefire, built right here in Texas and the people that his business supports? So we are just supposed to say because it does not affect me or mine that it is okay to sell these businesses down the river. I never had a use for a bump stock, didn’t evern really care whether I had one or not, but I dang sure care about the second amendment and all the things that are attached to it like accessories and the people that bring us those items in good faith and fair dealing. I put in my order the other day for several items from SlideFire not because I have to have these items but to vote with my pocketbook in support of these businesses that work within the rules and now someone one is going to change the rules on a whim.......a very slippery slope it is and if we give up even on this fight there will be another and another and soon our 2nd amendment rights will be eroded. There is not long play strategy in appeasement......history has proven that.

No big deal
Here in New Jersey
All guns are suppressed
Whether we can or not

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Buy American
Vote Responsibly

When the bump fire stocks first came out I figured the ATF would be all over that like stink on garbage as it basically exploits a technicality in the law.

The reason I don't like them is the fact that it's basically a waste of ammo and when you're bump firing the risk of an out of battery detonation is too much to me for some quick and expensive jollies (trying to turn a semi-auto trigger setup into a full auto like that just rubs me the wrong way)

I'm torn on whether or not they should be gotten rid of as they tend to attract the less desirable elements of the firearms community, just take a look at some of the stuff on youtube and tell me with a straight face that it makes gun owners look good. On the other hand the technology is out there and you won't be able to get rid of it.

Don't get me wrong, real machine guns are a lot of fun in the right environment.. MG42s give me the giggles

Unless the shooter was a prohibited person (so far it doesn't sounds like he was) he could have legally purchased a fully automatic weapon. Form 4 just like a silencer.

Automatic weapons manufactured after 1986 cannot be transfered to individuals. So while there is not not a growing number in circulation (IIRC I think the number is 180,000 registered with the ATF) automatic weapons are legally transferable among the population.

Well, you have been wrong for thirty years. Assault rifles are ALWAYS full auto, no conversion necessary. "Machine guns" is generally a specific term for belt fed, full auto military weapons but an M-16 and an M-14 are both "machine guns" in the full auto context. Modern Sporting Rifles/MSRs, the current euphemism (I like it) for military look alike weapons like the M1A, the AR-15, etc., are always semi-automatic only - they are NEVER full auto and cannot be converted to full auto, not legally, and it's not easy in many cases. Some rifles might be easy.


For all practical purposes a slide stock or a bump stock are full auto conversions BUT FOR the fact that the mechanics are external, not internal. I think the companies that make them should live and be well and sell millions of them if they can but the ATF should have covered them under its "conversions" section. That's just lawyer talk, not Second Amendment talk - under the RKBA I wouldn't list anything if I am a purist but that is not the point - the NFA exists and the bump stocks should have been included.

I believe the following is totally incorrect legally:

I do not think any of them can be legally transferred any longer. I will ask my Class III dealer to be certain.

If you own one, great. But you cannot sell it to someone else because it has to pass through a Class III dealer for the transfer and the transfer is restricted. I could be wrong. We shall see.

In any case, it seems pretty clear that the Las Vegas madman used bump stocks, not assault rifles.

FYI. There are thousands and thousands of full autos made prior to 1986 that can and are transferred between individuals every day.

May machineguns be transferred from one registered possessor to another? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

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BCCI Life Member #2068

Let's be clear, a bump stock does not make a semi auto into a full auto. All it does is speed up the pulling of the trigger on reset. A bump stock is not even needed for this, many shooters can shoot 300 to 400 rounds effective rate of fire with no bump stock. Even with lever action rifles, though reloading is slow. Jerry Miculek can shoot right along side of a shooter with the bump stock, and be just as fast.

Exactly!

Can't give them an inch when you know full well they're plotting for a mile.

But how many Jerry Miculeks are there out there???

As for a complete ban... there is a whole lot of money tied up in those 186,000 registered auto's that, for all intents and purposes, will become worthless if they can't be sold. (I can't see the government buying them back at current fair market value. At least, I don't want my tax dollars spent that way.)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I'd say that guy is hosed.

There are busloads of plaintiff's attorneys drawing straws to see which one will be the one to sue him into oblivion. Yes, his product was legal. But it only takes one sympathetic jury to believe the only use for his product was hosing down a large crowd of people. And I don't believe the Protection In Lawful Commerce In Arms Act will cover them.

I hope the NRA doesn't spend a dime of my dough tilting against this particular windmill.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I only have three comments which pertain to the issue in question:

First: The first ten amendments to the US Constitution are known as the Bill
of Rights.
Nowhere in the Constitution does it speak of the Bill of Needs.

Second: Gun control is not, nor has it ever been, about guns.
Its about control.

Third: I cannot recall anyone calling for common sense restrictions on any of
the provisions of the First Amendment. Such as restrictions on
Freedom of the Press.

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Bill

The bump fire stocks will be out lawed there working on passing a bill right now. But you can still bump fire a semi auto too without a bump fire stock.
It's on YouTube.

To me bump firing and large capacity magazines only wastes ammo. I like going after the X in the ten ring. I shoot for accuracy.(fun) I enjoy shooting soda cans with the kids, paper targets, hunting, ccw personal protection and I pray I never have to use it.

I agree but the way I see it you don't want your money spent on this fight. Later on maybe I don't want my money spent on another and the end result is we're left with nothing because we don't care enough about each other. I see the slide fire as no different than the folding stocks or barrel shroud or pistol grips. All of which are illegal somewhere. This weekend I spend two days at a friend's house in upstate Pa on the border with NY. We did a hipower shoot and except for him and I the rest of the guys were from NY. You should have seen their setups. No pistol grip, half a grip, stock and grip as one, chopped up muzzle devices...it was unreal. All because someone didn't want to fight for it (I understand it's a little more complicated than that, especially with NY).

In my opinion it WILL gradually be do you need 6 rounds, do you need a 32? Do you need to hunt? Do you really need to defend yourself when you have insurance?

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If the NRA spends a dime of my dough tilting against this particular windmill..............

Then I will kick 25 cents in to make up for your 10cents........somebody is going to get my money and it isn’t going to be government. And it is also going to the small business that is going to get hosed by the feds......to each their own.

Will they be history? I would bloody well hope so.

After hearing the thump thump firing in Vegas, I finally gave up on persuading my Aussie wife to retire with me in America. Ever.

My last trip to SHOT with her a few years ago, after a 20 year absence from that venue, I thought, "this is what you lot have been spending your time developing? And silencers?! And open carry?!!"

Y'all have lost the plot. To the point where my own country, USA, is no longer welcoming to an American citizen like me. I've avoided unnecessary dangers all my life and it's not going to change now.

God be with you all in your time of need.

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

There are tons of restrictions on the freedom of the press. They can't publish libelous statements with malice, they don't have unrestricted access to prisons, military bases, or other restricted areas. They can be jailed if they don't reveal certain sources. They can't have cameras in certain courtrooms. The freedom of the press is far from absolute.

A bump-fire stock isn't a firearm (and plenty of those are restricted, too). Its an accessory, and a pretty dumb one at that.

A ban on these is not only inevitable now, it is probably constitutionally sound. If the feds don't do it, plenty of states will, with probably far more reaching effects.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I almost bet the bump fire systems will be outlawed. In essence it makes a semi auto a full auto action. I saw a video of a guy emptying a 100 round drum in less than a minute using a bump stock.

Yep I do believe it will be outlawed is for any reason it will be considered making the gun full auto action. You need a permit to own a full auto and I bet the bump stock will be classified the same category.

You haven't? Really?

I'm pinning my hopes to the fact that our useless Congress fails to ever get anything important done... Now if it was declaring September 23rd "National Caboose Day" or something, I would be more concerned...

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Because of the metric system?

How about opening the last 60 days of the 1968 amnesty and ending the Hughes Amendment from 1986?

"Is the Slide fire going to be history?"

IMHO, no. They may be outlawed but I'm certain there are thousands of such devices out there, all unregistered, and most likely will be changing hands at a premium price on the street if made illegal so if you want one you can still get one. There's a trick with a shoestring or jeans with a belt loop. Are they going to outlaw shoes strings? No, most likely they will try to make semi auto rifles illegal, mag cap restrictions, pistol grips etc.

What I see as more of a problem are the antis, some who know little to nothing about firearms, getting the other antis and the other low firearm information public behind them, including lawmakers and going after drastic changes to owning firearms and their types.

Just my .02.

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Isaiah 41:10

You can't shout "Fire" in a crowded theater . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

If you have your wish, you're about to go out of business as a holster maker. I've been watching your diatribes about the Glock with suspicion, and I guess I never noticed you live in Australia now. Stay there . . .

(PS: I've decided that there's a new issue that has caused you to start posting. If you are indeed Red Nichols, I now understand your angst. I've been thinking ever since your Fall of the House of Heiser thread that some crazy old man got hold of your account. Now I get it. Seek help. Aging is hard. I hope you're not still driving)

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Not to sound like I am a thousand years old, but I remember when I was a teenager ordering a "BMF Activator," which me and a buddy screwed on a Marlin Model 60 with a squirrel pressed into the stock. We finally got that thing lined up right and let loose a dozen .22 rounds in a couple of seconds. We called it the "Squirrelnakaov."

Tin cans danced and cheap Kmart ammunition was gleefully wasted in the process as .22 brass poured out the side of that poor old Marlin. Boy, that was a lot of fun and a long time ago.

Compare that with the story of the f***up in Las Vegas - what a shame the world has changed its ways.

That's settled law. Have you heard anyone speak of any further restrictions on the so called "press?" The anti's are clamoring for more restrictions on the Second Amendment daily.

I just find it ironic that the 24/7 entertainment medium that hides behind the name "press" hides behind the First Amendment in their zeal to deny those they don't agree with the protections afforded by the Second Amendment.

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Bill

Agreed. And it's a direct refutation of your statement:

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

As normal a lot of huffin and puffin..grandstanding
by the elected official's. Much speculation by gun owners
and dealers. Buy this "it's gonna get Banned" stock up
on this(whatever)..always the monster under the bed.
Within 30 days it will be a forgotten event with only those
who lost a loved one to mourn.
Sad..

Don't own one, don't want one, don't see the need for one.

That said, the anti's don't look at this like you or I do. Its one more action chipping away at the Second Amendment. Like the anarchists clamoring to ban this or tear down that, the "subject at hand" is not their end game. They don't really care about this accessory. Its just one more tiny step toward their ultimate goal. They are very patient. They see any compromise as a win for them and a loss for anyone who disagrees with them.

As for your comment that if the feds don't the states will, that's directly from their playbook. Chip, chip, chip, anywhere, anytime. No matter how small or potentially insignificant, they see it as a win. A win that emboldens them and that's why I will never agree to give them any quarter.

Just my 2 cents.

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Bill

Bump / slide fire............Or just quick on the trigger.

It makes little difference the object when used to cause terror and harm.

It's not what's in a man's hands, but what is in the hearts of men that count.


*

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

There are still a number of us with NFA firearms who felt betrayed by the NRA when they caved on the Hughes Amendment in passing FOPA in 1986. Do you remember gun writer Jim Zumbo going down in flames over his "who needs..." diatribe on black rifles? With the majority of gun owners NOT being hunters these days, some of them are calling fans of blue steel and walnut bolt guns, by the pejorative, "Fudds."

"Lord" Bensten "reclassified" the Stryker, the Streetsweeper and the USAS-12 as Destructive Devices by unilateral decree when he was Secretary of the Treasury. Calling them 'Designed for Combat,' Bensten directed the ATF to trace owners of the newly reclassified shotguns through manufacturers and dealers to notify them of the changes. Anyone who failed to register a "rapid-fire shotgun" 30 days after being notified was subject to maximum penalties of a 10-year jail sentence and a $250,000 fine.

Just because your favorite gun, or your style of shooting is not PRESENTLY under attack that they are not after yours. After all which one of the anti-gun groups has not had in their charter the goal of a complete end to civilians owning any form of firearm, while at the same time saying, they don't want YOUR gun, only common sense blah, blah blah...

Benjamin Franklin had some damn good advice, "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

A $900 Harbor Freight milling machine and what Mr. Woznicki taught me in Metal Shop in 1962 could turn a paperweight into a felony over a weekend. How will they destroy the knowledge?

Attached Images

ar&mill.jpg (29.2 KB, 45 views)

Have you heard any member of Congress or any other elected official, or advocacy group for that matter, discuss placing "common sense" restrictions on the "freedom of the press?"

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Bill

Of course all Slide Fires are bump stocks, but not all bump stocks are Slide Fires, BUT what you wrote is.............

"Pretty much all the media reports I've seen just said "bump stocks" as opposed to slide fire, but yeah I know what you mean. When I saw the pics from the room I thought "So long, fires bump and sure.""

So yes, the media was correct in identifying them as "bump stocks".

Sorry if I hurt your feelings asking for a clarification on what you wrote.

I thought, perhaps, I was missing something, my mistake.

You have a great day there, secret agent man.

I agree but the problem is when the two words 'common sense' get mentioned they IMMEDIATELY become synonymous with 'not committed' with the group of gun owners who are CONVINCED 'common sense' will lead to your wheel guns, levers, bolts etc. being next on the list.