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Old 10-08-2017, 11:31 AM
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Interested in getting others opinion about this intriguing caliber/gun; sure its loud, yes it has a blast but man is it easy to shoot/followup, and up close and personal this gun just may be a solid contender for cc for the -average- civilian.

Sure wish that Smith could duplicate Rugers lcr trigger.

In fact if one is able to get over the Ruger thing (Smiths trigger is beyond horrendous) the only negative is cost BUT the dollars are really offset by the shoot ability of the combo, again for (the average) civilian cc-to become really-really good doesn't require an awful lot of cash, ditto remaining competent...

Put one in the noggin of an attacker (which certainly should be very easily done at close range) bent on doing you harm and I am confident is saying its all over, except for the court proceedings that is.

Last edited by gsn; 10-08-2017 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 10-08-2017, 11:50 AM
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As a curious and nosey old man I wonder how much difference in velocity between a .22 LR and a .22 Mag. when using a 2 in. barrel. Larry
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Old 10-08-2017, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tops View Post
As a curious and nosey old man I wonder how much difference in velocity between a .22 LR and a .22 Mag. when using a 2 in. barrel. Larry
Someone (Brassfetcher maybe? I will see if I can find it and edit) compared several loads in both using LCRs, a .22LR round placed first, then most of the WMRs, then a mix. But not much difference out of 1.875 inches.

That said I have a 351c waiting in a Bianchi shoulder rig with a pair of Beez speedloaders. Right now I can synchronize the trembling in my right arm and get good shots on target with my M40. Someday that all steel beauty is just going to be too heavy.

I like the 351c platform more than I like the LCR, just personal preference. If I liked the LCR more I would take the extra round (v351c) or two (vLCR) in preference to the WMR (which might have better bullet selection (GDHPs, Vmax, FMJ) depending again on preferences).

The LCR has what I belive to be the best new out of box trigger in a revolver. You can make the J frame trigger much smoother by filling the lockwork space with 3 in 1 oil, and then dry firing it 2 or 3 thousand times.( I use resilliant plastic wall anchors in my rimfires as snap caps.) Then I open 'em up and clean them thouroghly.
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Old 10-08-2017, 07:33 PM
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tops, the specifics I am not certain of hopefully someone can post the data; what I do know is that I have no concerns about carry this gun for self defense and yes I would also carry the lr-just don't have one

Lightweight, Compact Ruger LCR 22 Magnum Pocket Revolver
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Old 10-08-2017, 07:40 PM
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I love the .22 magnum, from a rifle.

If I were to carry a rimfire especially a snub nose, it would be a LR. Not a WMR, not worth the extra noise IMHO, plus you gain capacity.

The reality is you'd be better off with a .38 special with the most anemic loads you can find.
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Old 10-08-2017, 08:01 PM
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this might be a good place to start;

http:Mini Manstoppers: Using A .22 WMR Load For Self-Defense

Last edited by gsn; 10-08-2017 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 10-08-2017, 08:09 PM
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again all remember I don't have a .22lr snub so I really don't know how it shoots.

Hopefully we can find out: what the difference is between the two from a snub and if that difference is significant, though I tend to believe that even a few ft lbs more of energy is enough to recommend one round over the other IF one is trying to decide which to buy but perhaps not enough reason to replace a lr gun, unless of course one wants to and/or is able to do so.

Forgot to mention that we should also keep in mind that while the performance may or may not be alot the cost difference is very very significant AND availability, I understand, has been somewhat of an issue in the recent past.

I just find the wmr to be, well- really cool.

Last edited by gsn; 10-08-2017 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 10-08-2017, 08:19 PM
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Kel-Tec makes a semi-automatic 22 Mag pistol called a PMR-30.
30 round magazine.
It is a FIRE breather and puts out a large flame.
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Old 10-08-2017, 08:28 PM
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The .22 WRF magnum is an outstanding cartridge when used in a suitable rifle that will make the most of its ballistic capabilities. When fired from a pistol, especially a snub-nosed revolver, the results are far less impressive. Lots of blast, lots of muzzle flash, but very little (if any) performance capabilities beyond .22 LR expectations.

Very much like the .357 magnum. When fired from short-barreled revolvers there is little difference from .38 Special ammo, other than the increased recoil, blast, muzzle flash, etc.

We can dream all we want to. We can visualize anything we like. But reality will always remain reality, no matter what we might wish for.
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Old 10-08-2017, 10:43 PM
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I have a High Standard Mark IV 3 inch barrel in .22 WRM, nine (9) shot revolver.

It's an intriguing handgun, fun to shoot. Not certain of the ballistics, but it's lightweight easy to conceal, it always appealed to me when I read about it in the magazines years ago.
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:21 AM
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A guy I used to know carried a single-action .22 Magnum (I think it was a 4” barrel) when cougar hunting with hounds, back when that was still legal here. He swore by the caliber for taking down treed cats. More wham than a .22, but no more damage to the pelt.
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:36 AM
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Counting on a head shot in a self defense scenario is best left to Navy Seals and Hollywood gun fighters. One's target should be center mass with a .38 caliber or better round. In my humble opinion of course.
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Old 10-09-2017, 05:47 AM
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these two vids to my eye show a significant difference:

https://www.youtube.comwatch?v=j5J14juvOUk


curious as to what others see

Keep in mind that civilian self defense shooting occur at much much closer ranges than leo shootings, civilian are very up close where ANYONE, myself included really cannot miss shots to the head.

Toss in the new defense ammo for both LR/.22 and ..............
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Old 10-09-2017, 05:51 AM
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Can't seem to fix things, if you google .22 lcr on this channel you will get the other vid.

With the lr the bottles just pop, with the .22 wmr the bottles explode, of course the reaction would depend on shot placement but the more I research the more I am leaning towards the wmr.

and yes I certainly could be mistaken

Last edited by gsn; 10-09-2017 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:59 AM
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And now you have the LCRx 3" in .22WMR.
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:33 AM
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I see no need for a .22 magnum handgun, especially a snub. The ammo used to be cheaper but it is now fairly expensive and not much superior in performance to Stingers in a short barrel. With a .38 you can use a light target load if you don't want much power or recoil or +P if you need more muscle and snake shot and plastic bullets are also an option.
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Old 10-09-2017, 09:33 AM
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I have both 22 lr and mag handguns and there is a very big difference in the two. I had a NAA 22 mag that had a lot more power than the 22 lr model, my son talked me out of it.
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Old 10-09-2017, 09:38 AM
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Snubby 22 Mag? Not really sure how practical it is.
But I have tried several times to buy a 2 inch 651.
Maybe because I have a 2 and a 4 - 63, and a 4 inch 651.
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Old 10-09-2017, 09:40 AM
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I've got an LCR and an NAA in .22 WMR. Love 'em both . . .
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Old 10-09-2017, 10:03 AM
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My biggest concern EDCing any .22 is ignition reliability.
I've had far too many misfires for me to trust it for defense.
I believe CCI has the best record, but even those have failed on occasion.
That's why you have such heavy triggers on .22 revolvers.
A .22 snubby is what I use for snakes at home, though. Perfect for that but I use .22 short hp.
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Old 10-09-2017, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tops View Post
As a curious and nosey old man I wonder how much difference in velocity between a .22 LR and a .22 Mag. when using a 2 in. barrel. Larry
Yyes, me too. A valid question.
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Old 10-09-2017, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tops View Post
As a curious and nosey old man I wonder how much difference in velocity between a .22 LR and a .22 Mag. when using a 2 in. barrel. Larry
Yes, me too. A valid question.
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Old 10-09-2017, 07:06 PM
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From looking at the charts it appears that the wmr is hitting about 15% harder than the lr-hoping that more knowledgeable people add their thoughts.
Talldog, may have to violate the prime directive and buy another no warranty new handgun...
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Old 10-09-2017, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Topsarge View Post
Yes, me too. A valid question.
Probably no more than 150fps.
The magnum does carry a jacketed bullet over the lead lr load, but as has been said, a .38 just makes much more sense for self defense.
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Old 10-09-2017, 07:16 PM
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This certainly appears to be the game changer;

22 WMR 45 gr FTX® Critical Defense® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

1000 ft/sec at 100 ft lbs from a 1.8" barrel at the muzzel which should be the numbers for the 'typical' civilian self defense shooting-I don't think much speed/energy is going to be lost in 3 ft or so.
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Old 10-09-2017, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsn View Post
Talldog, may have to violate the prime directive and buy another no warranty new handgun...
There will be 2 LCRx .22WMRs in our house before Christmas.
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Old 10-12-2017, 08:11 PM
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Another incredible performer just a few ticks off from Hornady:

Speer Ammo - Ballistics Tables

go almost to the bottom of the page to Gold Dot/Short Barrel/Personal Protection

click on detail for .22 wmr

Last edited by gsn; 10-12-2017 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:11 AM
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Little advantage over a .22 l.r in such a short barreled gun - but the proverbial blast ... .

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Results

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .22 Results
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Old 10-13-2017, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyd View Post
Little advantage over a .22 l.r in such a short barreled gun - but the proverbial blast ... .

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Results

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .22 Results
I wouldn't go by BBTI's results for the .22WMR. If you look on their test page, they state that at they weren't getting reliable readings at the shortest barrel lengths, so they extrapolated the results. Here's the quote:

Quote:
For the last measurements in the chop tests - when the barrel was only 2" - we were only able to obtain one or two readings for each type of ammo. The readings were consistent with the curves we had seen through the rest of the testing, but doesn't have the same degree of supporting data.
They also didn't test any actual short barrel guns in that caliber. You can find Youtube ballistic videos for .22WMR that tell a different story.
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Old 10-13-2017, 07:13 AM
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There is a pronounced difference in the personal defense of .22WMR rounds over the regular .22WMR. Don't have a chronograph, but my wet phone books show better penetration with the personal defense offerings.
Yes the muzzle blast is pronounced with either rounds with the short barrel.
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Old 10-13-2017, 09:19 AM
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I've always had at least one 22 mag in the house. I like it but my attitude is that since, in 67 years, I have never fired at a human (military excluded), I feel the odds of having to use one now are pretty slim. I have carried 22 wmr, 22 LR, 25 acp, 32 acp and even 22 short. My attitude is that I don't wanna play cop or Navy Seal==I'm too old. I will simply put it in my assailants eye and pull the trigger=let it bounce around inside the skull. The (slowly!) run away, as fast as an old fat man with bad knees can!

BTW: I'm not dumb=my EDC is a Glock 27 in 357 Sig==I recently kept 28 out of 30 shots in the head of an FBI silhouette at 10 yards, rapid fire.
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Old 10-13-2017, 11:33 AM
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I can vouch for the effectiveness of .22 mag snake shot out of a 351PD. It makes for a dandy little pocket gun in rattler territory. Awfully loud though!
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:17 PM
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I've been carrying a 351c to and from work (office environment) every day for the past year. It's not the only revolver I carry but it is easy to carry and conceal when I am wearing a button shirt, tie, and dress pants . The 351 (11.5 oz) weighs less than my 642 (14.6 oz) and at the range I can rapid fire 2-3 rounds for every 1-2 rounds out of the 642. Recoil feels like a 22lr and having 7 rounds gives me added comfort. Also a lot of manufacturers are making 22 mag specifically for snub nose guns now. The caliber performs better today than it ever did thanks to modern rounds like Hornady's Critical Defense and Speer's Gold Dot. The only thing I did not like was the price (of gun, not ammo). For what you pay for a 351 you can get two 642/442's.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:23 PM
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I pocket carry a NAA Sidewinder.. I have the 22wmr with the 22lr conversion.

Since I like to use the 22lr to practice I just load it up with the hottest 22lr for carry. The difference in published velocities is close enough that the extra blast and cost per round of the WMR makes it unnecessary. IMHO
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Old 10-14-2017, 07:13 AM
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If I am interpreting the data correctly the .22 wmr self defense ammo out of a snub is hitting about 50% harder than the best performing .22 lr from a snub.

Accepting that the -average- self defense civilian shooting occurs at very close distances, involves less than two shots and is over is less than several seconds it becomes clear to me that either a .22lr or the significantly more powerful .22 wmr really is a viable self defense caliber.

You can find articles that suggest that the revolver is both more jury friendly than the semi and is more intimidating to look at from the business end compared to the semi. The latter is true or at least it is for my wife and I; something about seeing the bullets (disclaimer: we were investigating this by mirror reflection-borrowed a friends plastic master blaster). This perception becomes very very significant when you realize that in the 'majority' of instances the simple act of producing a hand gun during a threat in and of itself stops the aggression.

As for the claim of the revolver being more jury friendly than a semi; it is common sense for us-usually the revolver is much more limited in ammo capacity, usually slower in the firing sequence and the revolver has the distinction, fortunately, of being viewed as old fashioned.

I'm not suggesting that the revolver is a get out of jail card but we do believe that this handgun is the best choice for any civilian, without question.

You're probably never going to have to pull the trigger, you have about twice the amount of ammo you will ever need and its almost impossible to miss the target at the expected distance: the revolver really is the perfect choice.
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Old 10-14-2017, 10:10 AM
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22 WMR out of a snub nose has very little energy. sure a hit to the brain or heart works with any caliber but as we all know, gun fights are not like punching holes in targets at the range.
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Old 10-14-2017, 11:52 AM
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40 years ago, Bill Jordan said he thought the 22 WMR had some potential for civilian EDC.
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Old 10-14-2017, 12:34 PM
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I have an LCR 22 Mag. That little bullet moves, but the flash and bang is not fun. I've got some self-defense rounds that are supposed to curtail that, but I haven't tried em yet though.
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Old 10-14-2017, 01:46 PM
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I am not saying anyone who claims a .22 WMR is significantly more powerful than a .22 LR out of a snub is incorrect. I would like to know where they obtained this information.

When I purchased a 351c (I was looking at this or a 43c) I researched both. Apples to apples (in this case out of two 1.875" LCRs), there was little difference. High end velocity from a 36 to 40 grainer was about 1100 with many being within the statistical margin of error (a LR actually had the highest velocity). I would say either is pretty much the same as the other.

I purchased the WMR because it was avalible right then, not in a week or two.

(I am sure there is a HUGE difference with rifle length tubes.)
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Old 10-14-2017, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamabred View Post
I have an LCR 22 Mag. That little bullet moves, but the flash and bang is not fun. I've got some self-defense rounds that are supposed to curtail that, but I haven't tried em yet though.
There is a WORLD of difference flash noise etc between a Gold Dot Short Barrel in .22 WMR and a CCI maxi-mag.

Of course you will also set Mr. Badguy on fire with the CCI. Unless you enjoy flamethrowers use the Speer.
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Old 10-14-2017, 08:37 PM
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View the links for the defense wmr ammo; one claims 100 ft lbs at the muzzle the other 98 ft lbs at the muzzle. We should all be able to agree that very very little, if any energy loss is going to be realized at arms length or even two or three times arms length.

Blast, yes, flash, yes its the result of wasted energy but what is not present is recoil to any significant degree. With either the lr or the wmr one has the ability to place the first and follow up shots with 'surgical' precision and herein lies the beauty of these two guns for civilian self defense. Anyone and I mean ANYONE can quickly learn to expertly and responsibly handle/maintain the revolver in very short order, quite unlike the semi auto, this is also something which we believe cannot be denied.

Certainly the choice of using the .22 revolver for self defense can be discussed and even argued. However what cannot be intelligently disputed is that the performance of the lr is eclipsed by the .22 wmr-to a significant extent.

For us, the performance gain is well worth the significant extra cost of the wmr and the aggrevation, at times, of finding ammo.

Others may have themselves convinced that they -need- 15 or more rounds of 9-40 or 45 in that double stacked mag and thats fine-the Mrs. and I just think its silly.
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Old 10-14-2017, 10:24 PM
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I have a 351c, and its loaded with Short Barrel Gold Dots. In addition to the Gold Dots I have fired CCI maxi mag solids and hollow points over a chronograph. The Gold Dots are 125-150 fps slower than the solid-hps. The Gold Dots don't clock as fast as shown on the Speer chart over MY chronograph. I don't know what the length of Speer's test barrel is, seems clear to me its more than two inches. A friend has a LCR in .22 LR, mini-mags and PMC 40 grain fmj clock about the same as the maxi-mags with the same fireballs. It is her practice weapon (for the .357 version) so she usually just shoots standard velocity stuff.

The Gold Dot is much more 'civilized' and has a better bullet for sd, I don't plan on trading my WMR for a LR, but am not convinced that out of 2 inches or so there is so very much difference.

(Yes I have seen the clip on youtube where someone claims 2200 fps out of an NAA in WMR, just saying he needs to move that chronograph a little further from the muzzle.)
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Old 10-15-2017, 08:09 AM
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Speer/CCI responded quickly to an email, unless stated all values are based on the 'saami spec 24" barrel'.

The short barrel-1.9"- 40 gr GDHP-SB self defense .22 wmr leaves at 1050 ft/sec (98 ft lbs) and at 50 yds it is 961 ft/sec (82 ft lbs)

Hornady-1.875" barrel- 45 gr FTX .22 wmr leaves at 1000 ft/sec (100 ftlbs) and at 50 yds it is 926 ft/sec at 86 ftlbs.

Look at the numbers for the .22 lr-when you realize that the data for this round is from a 24" barrel we should all be able to agree that not only is there a significant difference between the lr/wmr but there is a massive difference.

However, for what the vast majority of US either (if the platform is a revolver) really is capable of providing adequate civilian protection-I am now convinced of this.

Of course I fully support anyone carrying anything they want, legally,-heck boys hack off a Smith 500 and stick that in your shorts if it puts your mind at ease-imagine the blast/flame/recoil from that bad boy?

Or for that matter, hook up a semi in the caliber of your choice to a belt fed mag, strap that container on your back-you'd probably want a MINIMUM of 500 rds-and walk in complete confidence. Unless of course the darn thing jams, which I understand happens somewhat regularly with the master blasters.

Failure to feed, eject, putting the thing 'in battery' clearing jams, finding the 'right ammo', cleaning the -magazine-, yup its suggested on a regular basis and all this with a stern warning about using +p.

Good Grief boys-WHY??

The Mrs. and I will happily continue to simply spin and grin.

"Pass the ammo dear, anything will do just fine"
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Old 10-15-2017, 08:10 AM
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Forgot to ask, is there anyone here that will maintain that the loss of energy from the muzzel to civilian shooting self defense distances is going to be anything over nill?
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Old 10-15-2017, 08:13 AM
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AND, while I'm at it-a pox upon the kid that runs Smith for NOT making a 9 snub that works without moonies.
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Old 10-15-2017, 08:20 AM
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Make that a slab performance center 9 snub without a lock that works without moonies- I feel better now.
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Old 10-15-2017, 12:35 PM
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I am a revolver guy. Carried a M40 for close to 40 years now. 24 ounces loaded by my scale with one reload in a Bianchi speedstrip. I bought the 351c because it weights 11.4 ounces loaded by my scale with one reload in Tuff strip. (642 weight is 17 ounces same condition.) I can pocket carry the 351c, the pancake holster and belt required for the M40 weights another pound or so.

IMHO revolvers are the perfect firearm for SD. Simple, reliable, accurate. If you can hit what you aim at then a .22 short is as useful as a .45 LC. Civvie encounters are typically at distances you can get good hits if you remain focused. Moreover the mere fact you are armed and willing to defend yourself usually deescalates the siiuation without gunfire.

Speer uses 24 inch industry standard test barrels and the numbers they obtain are useful comparing any of thier products to each other and to products made by others but tested with the same protocols.

.22 WMR has massive advantages over .22LR in long barrels.

I used to think that ALL of the fireball was wasted energy. I spent a lot of time developing efficent loads for a snubnosed .38 special. For instance 1.9 grains of Clays burns nearly instantaneously, great accuracy, no fireball, minimal recoil propelling a 150gn LDEWC. You couldn't fill that case with Clay's, pressure would be too high, You can nearly (5,7gn) with HS6, fireball, more recoil, more fps. You can back off the charge until.you pattern rather than print, but HS6 will never burn 100 percent in 1.875 inches.

Same thing with the Gold Dots (I would guess with Hornady and Olin too). Nice SD bullet, enough fast burning powder to propell that JHP to speeds ot will expand at, but not so much as to be excessivly loud or create a fireball.

The HP-V is designed for a rifle. It probably has a slower powder, designed to burn 100 percent in 15 to 23 inches. Put it in a 1.875 inch 351c and its a relativly loud flamethrower. But that fireball.does inefficently propell.the bullet a little (like a booster rocket). Over my chronograph the lighter HP-Vs went fastest, then the solids, then the Gold Dots.

Since the Gold Dot is going fast enough to expand, the fact it is 125 or so fps slower does not matter.

While not apples to apples (351c vs LCR .22LR), both have 1.875 inch tubes. My high average over my Chrinograph was about 1105, my low average for 3 types of 36 to 40 grain solids in WMR or LR was about 1047. All of those were hyper velocity rifle rounds with big loud fireballs.

The WMR SD rounds are so very much more pleasant to shoot. And in LR you basically have solid or tiny (small game) hollowpoint bullet design. I prefer GDHP to Vnax, but would take PDX or V-max over any LRN design.
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Old 10-17-2017, 06:15 AM
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Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say | Fox News

Another example of a 'show and go' and why perhaps its time to really re-think civilian self defense with regard to lawful concealed carry of handguns.
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