Wow, I never knew small animals were so dangerous. Maybe I should downsize to .22 Magnum so I can spray and pray.

Because more than 5 rounds automatically means spray and pray!

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You have way more disposable income than I do

Since this thread started, I have done some on-line research and cannot find a single instance where a bad guy yelled; "Stop!" "You're not gonna shoot me with something uncool are you?"

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

Cheap seems to rule above all else with the masses.


Why do you think China is the leading exporter in the world? they make everything from abacuses to toy zebras cheaper than anyone else in the world. Doesen't matter that it will not last very long, Little Johnny will have lost interest in it before then anyway! Cheap will win out over quality most of the time.

Maybe if johnny had bought something he could take pride in, he wouldn't lose interest

It isn't China!! It's XYZ company that's selling the product to you! China will make whatever you want to YOUR price point!! If you want to sell the toy zebra for $5 and still make a profit expect to have little to no quality in the raw materials. China is simply the source of labor. iPhones are made in China and they're pretty good quality.


So when you were 13 you played with the same toys from when you were 5? And do you still have them? If not where is your pride in your toys?


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Even if Chinese stuff does last a long time, there's so much of it that people just toss it aside for the latest and greatest cheap Chinese stuff. Ooh, look - a Gen6!

We've had so many generations who never experienced consumer products that have "soul" that people have forgotten what it even means. It's an inherent quality built into something by the hand of man, that cannot be made obsolete. A quality piece of furniture made from real wood, joined and finished to last 200+ years, has soul. Fiberboard junk from Ikea does not. The Heritage Rough Rider is the Ikea of guns. I have one and it's fun, but I don't expect it to last.

People do realize there are other advantages to having a polymer frame other than just keeping costs down, don't they?

We've wondered into a an area where cheaper price means cheap junk and the definition of cheap junk seems to be based on looks.

My dresser is probably 20- 30 years old. Not made by hand and not of real wood but it has yet to see an expectation date. Hasn't deformed, broke, fallen apart, warped. It's used every day and at this rate I'd expect it to last another 30 years and beyond.

Metal gun doesn't mean more or less quality then a polymer gun. If that was the case then a Hipoint or Jennings is equal to a Colt 1911 or a 5906. Both are metal thus both are quality. Just like an HK USP and a Keltec aren't the same quality. Quality isn't in looks and feelings it's in how long a said product lasts while in it's intended use. Many of these polymer guns last hundreds of thousands of rounds without a problem. How is that not quality?

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And what happens if you are outside the bell curve and it's 20 rounds over 2 minutes? If you think that can't happen you live in a different world than I do. Being proud of not being prepared just does not make sense to me whatsoever.

I understand the appeal of wood and steel. It looks good. But they could be made to "look" much better. And I'm sure lots of guys hung on to their breech loaders after the world had moved on to repeaters. Check the Civil War if you want proof. Heck the first machine guns used in war happened in that war. You guys are bordering on that type of situation.

Ever wonder why Patton called the M1a the greatest implement of war in history? It was because it gave his troops an advantage. Well black pistols give people advantage against revolvers and if you are so certain that statistics will save you then why carry at all? It has to be a very small percentage of people that ever find themselves needing a gun.

There have been a few times I wished I had a gun with me but I managed to survive without one. And I sat through 2 armed robberies (one with 7 robbers), a guy shooting right behind my house to scare me (then he threatened to kill me about 30 times), a bow pointed at my back because I got 10 feet off national forest property on my ATV before I could turn around, and the threats of a known murderer who swore he would kill me and my entire family because we wouldn't give him a right of way across our farm. I know that guy to be the best shooter I've ever met. I saw him shoot a pop can that was tossed into the air 11 times before it hit the ground again with a .22 rifle. He even taught me how to do it but I never got past 7 times.

Then there was the pack of feral dobermans I ran into while riding my ATV. If I had been on foot a revolver would not have saved me.

The idea that we will never face a situation where more rounds are required because the law of averages says so is just beyond logical IMO. It can happen. It does happen to some people. Why not be as prepared as possible given what I can legally carry concealed?

Bears repeating, "Thing is one can enjoy the full spectrum of handguns if one wants to."

And enjoy them even more when stop worrying about your neighbors handgun.

You make some good points. I often second guess my choice of carrying a 5 shot revolver on occasion, especially after reading articles like this one from the late Todd Green...pistol-training.com >> Blog Archive >> A Capacity to Love

I believe I've seen the often quoted 3/3/3 stat being attributed to or at least being popularized by Tom Givens. I believe Mr. Givens carries a full size Glock FWIW.

ECQ advantages are a primary reason I carry a hammerless snub, but it should noted that the guy who is widely considered the foremost authority on ECQ shooting(Craig Douglas) most often carries a Glock 19 or 26.

Let's change it up a little.

Purple....boooo!!!!
Sccy....booooo!!!
Sccy spelling....BOOOOOO!!!

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The Chinese do make a lot of junk, but they are capable of very good work also. Look at the Chinese violins. Most are garbage, but in the $2500 to $5000 range the Chinese are better than the Europeans. Get into the expensive stuff and the Chinese will violins will hold their own against anything else out there.

China in some parts the living has come to the middle class, and even above level. Eventually they will have to stop making cheap products when the people are tired of cheap pay. China has let capitalism in, it can't be stopped.

I was going to lament the fact I am guilty of owning plastic guns, but only recently... then I realized my first rifle and first shotgun both a sort of plastic guns... Remington Nylon 66 BD and a Stevens 240 O/U 410 with a tenite stock... so the plastic thing has been around a while... the one is about WW2 vintage... the other from the 1980's... the majority of my pile is steel and wood, but my plastic Sigs will stay close by where they should... but I am here for a reason... I really like my S&W Revolvers...
so guilty but not remorseful...

I think that in the last few years we have had a substantial amount of new gun buyers that really don't know a lot about guns but are worried about there safety due to all the things going on all over. A lot of these people are budget minded and the gun makers know that. There business, sell guns. Price sells. That's the bottom line. Now we have cheaper guns. lots more choices too.

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Carpe Diem

If that was all that is in play we would all be carrying Raven P-25's. The black plastic stuff so many like to rag on are often high quality guns. They just happen to be sold for less because the materials used to make them are cheaper. That does not make them less functional. In fact many of them are more functional. The light weight of the gun means you can carry far more ammo in the gun comfortably. If I carried 17 rounds of .40 caliber ammo in a steel gun it would weigh more than half a gallon of milk.

I admit, I own a Gen. 3 Glock 17 ( the rest of my pistols are Hi Powers); boring, reliable, ugly, etc. but I'll keep it bedside and sleep well

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John

I'd like to see a link to two examples of a civilian engaged in a self defense gunfight who reloaded and continued the fight . . .

(Don't cite any mass shooting where no civilian was armed and try to divine what might have happened . . . )

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Coming to this forum always makes me laugh. On the other forums most members are comparing "quality" aka how long will it last, does it function 100% of the time, and how accurate is it. They don't care if it is revolver, semi, metal, or polymer.

I come to this forum and all I hear is "you can feel the quality in how heavy it is" or "plastics guns break when it's cold outside cus my kids gi joe broke when it was cold outside and they are both plastic so same thing"

Interesting. I've never read either of those on this forum, but I haven't read every thread. I think this thread is largely in jest, just a little fun.

Yeah, things are getting a little weird and nasty between the "gun is tool like screwdriver" folks and those who have a little more love and respect for tradition and the gunmaker's art & craftsmanship. But isn't that the way all of these "modern vs. traditional" threads go? Nobody is going to change anyone's mind in the other camp.

I've bought and sold many black fantastic handguns and never thought any more about them. But the one gun I have had yearnings for and regrets about is the one I bought brand new in 1983 when I was 21 years old, my 6" model 586, no dash.....that I stupidly traded away. I wonder why that is? I think I know and you all do to.

You need to live a less exciting life.

Reloads in a civilian defense encounter are apparently astronomically rare.There may be cases of it occuring, but I'm just not finding them. Probably why I'm still ok carrying a revolver.

The closest I could come with a couple of quick Google searches were these...

This case does involve an off-duty cop, but the shooting is not related to work... Report: So many bullets flew in Livingston shootout that investigators lost count — they estimate 60 before the intruder shot himself | Communities | theadvocate.com

This woman definitely needed a reload... 61-Year-Old Woman Shoots Intruder, Then Burglars Attack Her << CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

There's also the Lance Thomas incidents, but all are examples of New York reloads.... https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/w...ense-revolver/

Nah. 90% of them look better than Glocks

I don't understand why you had to "settle on buying a Rossi."

I was kinda confused about that too

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Yeah, but you get a testosterone boost without buying a supplement.

Me on the "new" plastic fantastics.

Don't like them much. But that is for aestetic reasons only.

They can do their job effectively. I have tried a few of them. They are sturdy reliable and accurate.

Do I like them? Not much. Do I respect them. Yes I do.

I don't believe you would "like" to see any such thing. You want to continue to believe it never happens. The truth is very few shootings are described in great detail by the media because most of them hate guns and don't want to encourage their use. Not finding reports of it happening is not the same as it not happening.

I live the life God gave me to live. Truth be told I could probably name a few more examples of where a revolver wouldn't have been enough to get the job done. Some here insinuate that it never is needed but I named several times in just my life where a revolver would not have been enough but that part gets ignored. I suppose I could have shot every one of those armed robbers - all 7 of them - with a revolver if I only had exactly the right revolver and I didn't miss. The guy in the seat next to me put me in the cross hairs of a crossfire or he very nearly did anyway. If the bad guys had seen him I would have been hiding under the table hoping they didn't shoot me instead of the idiot who ran. No reason to have more than a revolver there surely.

Same goes for the pack of feral dobermans. Feral dogs kill a lot of people. A person I knew had over 20 dogs and they ended up killing a census worker. And they weren't dobermans. I was caught right in the middle of one of the worst packs imaginable. I have to admit there were only 5 nearly full grown pups and a mother. Maybe a revolver would have worked. If I was Bob Munden. The place that happened was on disputed land that was being logged by one man who claimed ownership and another man - that I knew - that owned and raised dobermans and was probably just crazy enough to turn a half starved pack of feral dogs loose on the logger. But I was the one who happened by. Silly me thinking I was OK being on a friend's property and all.

No matter how many times people deny the possibility it might happen it doesn't change one thing. It can and does happen. It's happened multiple times to me alone. I don't need to read about it somewhere. I saw it. And again there have been other instances. Things happen when you get away from the highway for one thing. Like finding yourself right in the middle of a huge pot field before you knew what was around you. Lots of people will try to kill you just for that. And yes I did that too. The plants were so big I didn't recognize them. Then there was the running feud between a guy I knew and a biker gang in a city. They were always after each other.

The idea there is no reason to have more than a revolver is just wrong. Maybe I have lived an extraordinary life but I'm not the only one. My grandfather stood off a gang of bank robbers who came to the farm to kidnap my uncle. He had been their getaway driver (he was forced to do it) and they wanted him back. I have lots of examples. None of them were written up in the media. Well the one with the 7 robbers at McDonalds was. But I don't have a copy of the weekly paper for that small college town from back in 1977.

I do have an 18 round semi that is not made of plastic.

I know Llamas have not a stellar rep. But I used this one in IPSC and it never failed me.

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Chinese Glock copies!

Chinese Norinco Glock Clone - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

So far that's a frame with no s#

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Really? Who'd a thunk it . . . ?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Do you really believe that if a citizen was involved in an armed self defense encounter, reloaded, and continued the fight that it wouldn't be the lead story? Most shootings are described in great detail by the media because most of them hate guns and want to find a way to discourage their use . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I rarely see any report of a citizen involved in using a gun for SD. The only stories I see are those of people murdering someone. They even call SD shootings murder.

I have access to over 3.3 million newspaper pages from all across the country. I use it for my work. I have been searching the pages and so far all I've found are reports on how people are going to trial for claiming SD in a shooting, a shooting cleared by the police that was still called a murder, and obvious examples of people who claim SD falsely. They have zero interest in publishing accounts of shooters who effectively protect themselves with a gun. This is almost 6000 newspapers I'm searching and over the last few decades I've not found one positive article on a SD shooter.

Again finding an account of a shooter that had to reload is going to be next to impossible because the media is dead set against any kind of shooting. I actually gave up my desire to be a journalist because I was told I would be expected to slant stories to suit the bias of the publishers. And publishes almost always get into the business to push their agenda. And it isn't a conservative agenda that sees guns as a viable method of SD. The people who want to serve that type of agenda join the military or a church. I have since become a freelance journalist. If I didn't know what my publishers want I wouldn't be in business long. I don't attack guns obviously. I don't try to support them either because I would never sell an article like that and likely I wouldn't sell anything else to a publisher where I pitched an article like that.

At the risk of calling your internet skills into question, plug this phrase into your favorite search engine:

"citizen shoots robber"

(Here's a poorly kept 21st century secret. We all have access to those same 3.3 million pages . . . )

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Really? You've never seen a positive article on a SD shooter?

When you look outside your window, do you see this:

They're very few, far between and lack any kind of details.

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Couldn't find any blued four inch .357 magnums out there. Came across Rossi that just needed some nice wood to give it the old school look. Finish on this one is surprisingly nice. Where I live you are lucky to find even an old rusted Smith revolver.

Well, it is a pretty rare occurrence to begin with. As for details, what details are needed aside form "man breaking into house shot by homeowner."? And even if we did need more details, do you expect a local news reporter, who probably has a limit of 100 words, to get the detail right? Of course not--they aren't all Hemingway. Most don't know the muzzle from the breach of a firearm, and why should they, there are much, much , much more important things that local reporters should be reporting on in detail than old widow Jennings putting a hole into the B&E perp while he was climbing into her window one night.

I'm not expecting and I know they won't but the end result is ..... something happened, someone died. That's all we know. Was there reloading? Was it a one shot and done situation? Was it a 9, 40, 25, 500sw, 223?

I'm sure that data exists somew just not in the news

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Why search newspapers at all? Ask the FBI.

FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 15

SD shootings usually aren’t homicides, the BG goes to the hospital and gets arrested. The NRA magazine lists several each month, and one of our local news sources often has civilian SD stories.

I have 3 black plastic guns, 2 Glock 27,33 and 1 Ruger LCP. All the rest of mine are traditional autos and revolvers.
The black plastics are boring, nothing great to look at but they serve their purpose. Keep them clean and ready to work.
Now the traditional stuff is another story!,even though they don’t all get used on a regular basis they get admired, wiped down and enjoyed. Have even changed some wood grips out to give them a better look!
I still carry my Smith 36, enjoy the bluing of the gun and the rosewood grips, wipe it down every time it comes out of the holster it is handled,inspected and admired before being put away,black plastics just get wiped down and put away.
If something were to happen to my 36 I would be devestated! Now if something were to happen to a Glock or the LCP it would be something like Yeah well? Replace it!
So I guess I don’t appreciate the black plastics as I do the the traditionals?

"Maturity to me means I stop fiddling and throwing money at something that needs thousands of dollars and a lot of work. And instead buy something that already works."

This sub-collection began in 1978. It's needed exactly zero dollars and no work at all in order to give perfect satisfaction through many thousands of rounds fired. Well ... a few dollars in Hoppe's No. 9 and Singer Sewing Machine Oil and the occasional recoil spring when the mood strikes me.




These rather than plastic are chosen for function and for serious carry duty. And they don't resemble black plastic cordless drills like all the new crop automatics do.

First of all I am a S&W guy the vast amount of my collection are Smiths with a few Colts and Ruger single actions . But I was watching the outdoor channel a few weeks back and they were shooting the new Gen 5 Glock 19 , now while I am not the sharpest knive in the drawer I knew it was a Glock commercial , but I really liked the changes they had made , the new finish , beveling at the muzzle and the marksman barrel plus Glocks great repetition for reliability. To make a long story short I ordered one from my LGS specifying that it was USA made . It came in yesterday loaded the three mags that it came with it, gun looks great ( for a Glock) and feels right. Looking forward to shooting it when weather permits . First NEW gun I have bought in 17 years . We will see .