A friend's grandpa brought this shotgun from Scotland when he came here. I would appreciate any information anyone might know about this priceless heirloom. No, my friend doesn't want to sell it.
I'll make several posts to show the images I shot tonight.
Thank you very much for anything you might be able to offer.
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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob
Last edited by s&wchad; 02-18-2018 at 07:06 AM.
Reason: Photos merged
As already indicated; this is a quality hand built double shotgun made in Scotland . It has unfortunately suffered a bad break at the wrist at some time and really deserves to be properly repaired. Although this forum is a wealth of knowledge I'd recommend you post your information of the doublegun forum which has some very well educated expert on double shotgun and should b e able to properly advise you as how to proceed. Good luck and I also think you have a treasure there.
Jim
MacNaughton is a highly respected maker. That's a graceful old round action boxlock (possibly a triggerplate action) with nitro proofed damascus barrels. Even with the stock repair and the decades of use, it's a great gun! From what little I could find, it was made after. 1902.
I don't see any chamber length marked on the barrel flats, so I'd measure them. It may have 2-1/2" chambers and shooting 2-3/4" shells could have catastrophic results.
I'd love to own a shotgun of this caliber, pun intended. I find the stock repair quite interesting both in its design as well as the fact that they took the time to "time" the screws. Heck, my family wouldn't even have made sure the duct tape was wrapped evenly!
While many would not do it I was just thinking how it would look fully restored as well as with just a freshening of the checkering and a good cleaning. What wood is gorgeous!
Beautiful shotgun, and looks like the owner actually used it for what it was built for instead of just sleeping with it. That is priceless. Bet it has a lot of hunting stories.
I believe it would be a 1906 mfg and after.
James died that year and the firm was taken over by his 2 sons and renamed James MacNaughton & Sons (previously just 'James MacNaughton').
The 'Perth' reference is the companys other shop in that Scottish town. The former shop of David(?) Crockart whom they bought out.
MacNaughtons eventually sold that shop back to the Crockart family,,the original owners son I believe (possibly David Jr.) but I don't know when that was.
MacNaughtons ran till just after WW2 then was bought out by John Dickson & Son. Through an entanglement of employer purchasers the Dickson firm was then bought and reamerged as Dickson & MacNaughton in the 1990's.
Some records are available.
The 'Internet Gun Club' used to freely send what ever they had on MacNaughton records. [email protected]
Don't know if the email and offer is any good anymore though. It's a couple years old info now.
The gun has London Proof House proof markings used in the era 1904 to 1925.
Damascus bbls were and still are smokeless/nitro powder proofed right along with 'the good steel' barrels there. Same proof loads used in either bbl construction. They see them as equals unlike the scare senario on this side of the big lake.
The proof markings of that era did not include shell length marking for shotshell. It was probably a 2 1/2" chambered gun when made, but that's just my guess.
If that's the case and it still is,,then Good!, Value of an English gun balances greatly on the gun being 'in proof'..meaning not altered from it's original bore, barrel and chamber factory specs such as reaming out chambers & forcing cones, opening chokes, honing out bbls, ect.
Someone with the right bore and wall thickness measurement tools along with chamber measuring tools can go over it and determine if anything has been altered. That's what most any high end dealer would do on the spot before buying if offered up for sale somewhere to them.
'Out of Proof' on a UK double and the hands get thrown up in the air and all sorts of the end of the world looks overcome the faces of the collectors. It doesn't mean the gun isn't usable,,quite the contrary. The same work done to an American, Austrian, German or other shotgun brings little comment. But lengthen a forcing cone on a Brit or other UK SxS and the end of times is near..
Anyway,,,
Looks like an auto-ejector shotgun, to be expected on a fine gun like this but they made them both ways. Very nice wood. The stock break can be made strong as new wood again. The repair invisible with the right person doing the work.
Stock orig length it looks like w/ orig butt late.
Just a nice honest classic shotgun.
Nice case with it too. The missing handle can be replaced. There are period looking replacements available and leather workers that specialize in gun cases if you want the entire thing gone over to spiff it up!.
Beautiful piece of history! That said, it looks to have Damascus steel barrels though so you don't want to be firing modern ammunition from it .
Those barrels have been nitro proofed -- meaning there should be absolutely no problem using smokeless 1 1/8 oz. field loads, assuming the overall condition is as solid as it appears. The only other consideration, as already noted, is checking the chamber lengths, and the old-style short shells, in smokeless, are available.
It's really easy to measure chamber length at home even if you don't have a gauge. Carefully cut up an old credit card** to the width of the chamber. Insert the cut card until you feel resistance and mark how far it has gone into the barrel. Measure this distance and the will yield chamber length. If it is short do not despair as appropriate length shells are currently loaded.
I'd also like to dispel another myth that currently loaded ammunition can't be used in Damascus doubles as this one is obviously equipped. Companies such as RST load shells to well within black powder pressures and Damascus guns in good condition are fine with these loads. However a caveat: Good condition is the key here and any gun this old should be checked by a competent gunsmith before use.
Another point: I have seen incredible restoration work done on broken shotgun stocks. This will save a great deal of money over making a new stock and preserve originality as well.
Hope this helps
** The added advantage to cutting up a credit card for this purpose it it could be a real money saver as well!
Regarding the wrist repair, I believe that your only options are to leave it alone or replace the stock.Myself, I'd leave it alone. In addition to the screw holes, the plate(s) have been inlet into the stock,so a cavity exists if they were not present.A quality job,but also Scottish efficiency.
Folks get all worked up about 2 1/2 vs 2 3/4 inch ammo.
As a practical matter, it makes little difference: compare the length of a fired 2 1/2” shell with a 2 3/4” shell and you’ll see little or no difference.
The weak point isn’t the Damascus barrels, it’s the wood especially here since the stock has already been broken. The old wood deserves not to be beaten up more than necessary.
I appreciate you posting. My wife is second gen Scots American (her grandmother and family came through Ellis Is. in the 20's). They brought some neat stuff with them, but no guns unfortunately.
McNaughton was an upper tear maker, maybe not a best gun maker, but at least a tier two builder.
As other have said even though it has Damascus barrels they were originally nitro proofed with an1 1/8 service load. Still it was proofed at a lower service pressure than most of our modern loads, even light target loads. That means RST or Gamebore loads that run at lower service pressures. Even if the steel will handle high pressure loads you're dealing with 100 year old wood. Worse the wrist has already suffered a bad break that was repaired poorly. The wood is below the metal around the action so it some point it was sanded and redone.
So after someone that really knows old side by side and barrels inspects the gun and gives it a pass stick to light loads.
Now to that break and repair. I would leave it alone or have it restocked. The problem with the restock option is if you go with similar quality wood and have it done right the cost will exceed the value of the shotgun.
I'm going to toss out a value with the caveat that I've not had the gun in hand. I'll assume the bores are bright, haven't been hooned, the chambers are still 2 1/2 inch and not lengthened, the ribs are solid, the gun is on face and not loose. Basically it is gun in good shooting condition, not modified and still in proof but with a major break poorly repaired and no finish on the frame but a solid and shootable gun.
It is a box lock from a second tier maker with a major break with makers case. In todays horrible soft market for 12 gauge doubles I'm think $2-3,000 and maybe less. If it is loose or off face or out of proof or the bore is badly pitted I wouldn't touch it for $1000. To restore it and put it in shooting condition would greatly exceed the value.
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Bill Bates
Last edited by Bill Bates; 02-18-2018 at 12:17 PM.
I wouldn't even consider restocking the gun.
That old break & plate repair can be redone and not even show.
Nothing is inexpensive though!
But as a family heirloom, it makes more sense to me for it to stay in the condition it is in. There's a story behind that repair if it can be found.
I agree with Bill's price assessments as a market value.
Priceless as a piece of family history and it wouldn't be going anywhere if it were in my family's belongings either!
Folks get all worked up about 2 1/2 vs 2 3/4 inch ammo.
As a practical matter, it makes little difference: compare the length of a fired 2 1/2” shell with a 2 3/4” shell and you’ll see little or no difference.
The weak point isn’t the Damascus barrels, it’s the wood especially here since the stock has already been broken. The old wood deserves not to be beaten up more than necessary.
I think the 1 1/8 load stamp makes it a 2 3/4" chamber . I do know for a fact that the 1 1/16 is for 2 1/2 " chambers . I also know for a fact that shooting 2 3/4" shells in a 2 1/2 " chamber greatly increases felt recoil and can lead to broken stocks if not a busted barrel . The folded portion of the shell should open to just short of the forcing cone but not into it . If it is too long and gets into the forcing cone before it fully opens the pressure will go up and can be an issue . And yes the Damascus barrels can be an issue . Those have been proved for smokeless but should still be checked out by an EXPERT before you shoot it .
Damascus barrels properly made are as strong or stronger than solid steel barrels .....when new and in proof . These are not new , have them checked and if deemed to be in using condition I still would use 2" and 2 1/2" loads only . My 2 1/2 " gun for the 1 1/16 oz load does everything my heavy gun does with the possible exception of waterfowl which I don't hunt anyway .
Eddie
PS : I did not see the mark on your gun but I may have missed it so here are the metric chamber lengths .
2" = 50mm
2 1/2" =65 mm
2 3/4" = 70 mm
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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun
Last edited by Eddie Southgate; 02-18-2018 at 12:34 PM.
The 12 in the diamond on the barrel flats means it was a 2.5" chamber when proofed. Mr. Bates estimation of value is spot on. There are people who could fix that stock and you would never know anything happened. Dennis Earl Smith aka The Stock Dr. comes to mind . Service pressure loads for 2.5" shells are around 9000 psi. US makers that are SAAMI members, can load 2 3/4" loads even "low brass" or target loads can approach 11,000 psi. That can and will shake the gun to pieces sooner and the stock is already damaged. It is a special gun!
1 1/8oz 12ga 2.5" shells were loaded at one time.
Must not have been much to the wad colume inside there!
Most of the modern loading aimed at the older guns now use much lighter payloads but a couple do still load them up to 1 1/6oz as you point out.
I'd use 3/4oz stuff in this nice old shotgun if I did shoot it. It's not hard to reload down into the 6K psi range.
I use that and even 5/8oz loads in 12ga all the time and they break Skeet and SC birds w/no problem. Choke is your friend.
McNaughton was an upper tear maker, maybe not a best gun maker, but at least a tier two builder.
As other have said even though it has Damascus barrels they were originally nitro proofed with an1 1/8 service load. Still it was proofed at a lower service pressure than most of our modern loads, even light target loads. That means RST or Gamebore loads that run at lower service pressures. Even if the steel will handle high pressure loads you're dealing with 100 year old wood. Worse the wrist has already suffered a bad break that was repaired poorly. The wood is below the metal around the action so it some point it was sanded and redone.
So after someone that really knows old side by side and barrels inspects the gun and gives it a pass stick to light loads.
Now to that break and repair. I would leave it alone or have it restocked. The problem with the restock option is if you go with similar quality wood and have it done right the cost will exceed the value of the shotgun.
I'm going to toss out a value with the caveat that I've not had the gun in hand. I'll assume the bores are bright, haven't been hooned, the chambers are still 2 1/2 inch and not lengthened, the ribs are solid, the gun is on face and not loose. Basically it is gun in good shooting condition, not modified and still in proof but with a major break poorly repaired and no finish on the frame but a solid and shootable gun.
It is a box lock from a second tier maker with a major break with makers case. In todays horrible soft market for 12 gauge doubles I'm think $2-3,000 and maybe less. If it is loose or off face or out of proof or the bore is badly pitted I wouldn't touch it for $1000. To restore it and put it in shooting condition would greatly exceed the value.
Looks like original type finish on the action to me . It obviously has been refinished before . The wood is usually (almost always) left slightly proud so that when it gets sent back for refinishing there is excess wood that can be removed . This gun has none that I can see leaving me to think it has already been refinished a few times. Common for properly maintained Brit guns . My Watts has been refinished a few times and the wood is just now even with the metal work . It's action finish is the same as this gun , that's the way it came . Not claiming to be any kind of expert on these guns but I have owned a few in times past and still have several . I'd have it checked out as suggested and gauged and if everything checks good shoot it with the RST 2.5" shells .
Eddie
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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun
Last edited by Eddie Southgate; 02-18-2018 at 01:04 PM.
Thank you -- all -- very much for making time to reply. I've learned a great deal, and I'll share your knowledge with my friend.
Shoot the gun? Heck he hadn't even attached the barrels to the receiver (right term?) till last night! He is so, so very proud of the shotgun and its provenance. His grandpa traveled back and forth across the Atlantic eight times before he had his whole family here. On one of the return trips his wife and several children had tickets for the Titanic, but one of the kids got sick so they had to delay. He homesteaded on "The Big Sandy," about 40 or so miles west of here.
Looks like original type finish on the action to me.
Eddie
If you look at the photo of the water table of the action you see it still show case color. The case color on the action have completely faded or have been worn off. Honestly that wouldn't bother me much on a gun of this guns age but it does adversely effect the value.
On old side by side I like to say I'm buying barrels. If the barrels are sound most other issues can be easily remedied. If the barrels have issue beyond light dents it is game over.
If you look at the photo of the water table of the action you see it still show case color. The case color on the action have completely faded or have been worn off. Honestly that wouldn't bother me much on a gun of this guns age but it does adversely effect the value.
On old side by side I like to say I'm buying barrels. If the barrels are sound most other issues can be easily remedied. If the barrels have issue beyond light dents it is game over.
Bill ,
Agreed on the value completely . I am with you 100 % on the buying the barrels . Guess you can blame the missed Case Color on elderly eyes !
The 12 in the diamond on the barrel flats means it was a 2.5" chamber when proofed. Mr. Bates estimation of value is spot on. There are people who could fix that stock and you would never know anything happened. Dennis Earl Smith aka The Stock Dr. comes to mind . Service pressure loads for 2.5" shells are around 9000 psi. US makers that are SAAMI members, can load 2 3/4" loads even "low brass" or target loads can approach 11,000 psi. That can and will shake the gun to pieces sooner and the stock is already damaged. It is a special gun!
I have a Grade 3 L.C. Smith that was broken thru the wrist in two and held together with two screws when I got it. I had the stock professionally repaired and I can't see where the break was and I know where it happened! Properly repaired a stock should be as strong as it was originally keeping in mind that this is an especially weak spot particularly on side lock double. The other big advantage to a repair is it preserves the originality of the gun to a degree that a replacement stock can't.
Jim
Please post these photos over at Doublegunshop.com, they will be delighted to see them. There are a few doublegunsmiths I trust enough to evaluate a fine shotgun like this one definitely is.
J.J. Perdou in Sand Springs, OK and Kirk Merrington in Kerrville TX is another.
Dennis Earl Smith is a personal friend of mine, and could accomplish a repair that you wouldn't be able to detect, if you choose to have it repaired.
That’s a beautiful double barrel, always liked the look of a classic SxS. Would be a nice gun to spend time in the woods with. Lots of old school hand fit quality in the gun. Larry
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