I've noticed that over the last 6 months or so that the 40's are being traded off...? Has anyone heard of why these are being abandoned? Recoil management? Caliber envy wars? I'm curious as I was considering the 40 myself.

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John

Many Police Departments are transitioning away from .40 to 9mm.

I have seen quite a few of those. If they had been 9mm I might have picked a few up.

F.B.I. going back to 9mm.
Wait a few years for the F.B.I. to next change again to ?

Unfortunately, most folks out there who are only interested in firearms for self-defense tend to just follow the example of the Military or Law Enforcement, and now that the FBI has transitioned away from .40 S&W to 9mm Luger, folks are following suit.

It also doesn't help that there are a lot of extremely vocal 9mm Fanboys (including writers/editors for various publications) who like to pretend that it's the ultimate, one-size-fits-all self-defense cartridge and thus make all sorts of ridiculous statements like that modern 9mm Luger +P ammo is roughly equal to .40 S&W, ergo folks who are just looking for a good self-defense cartridge get fooled into thinking that they'd be better off selling their .40cal pistol for a 9mm pistol which is just as powerful, but lighter in weight with less recoil which is much cheaper to buy ammo for.

Eventually the FBI will decide that the 9mm isn't effective enough and that it's more important for agents to be able to put a threat down as quickly as possible than it is to cater towards the recoil sensitivity of certain agents, at which point they'll either switch back to .40, switch to another cartridge, or contract someone to design yet another new cartridge which better suits their needs, then everyone will want whatever they're carrying.

I honestly wish that one of these days that a bunch of different websites would collaborate on an elaborate prank/experiment in which several publications run a story in which the Military/FBI have adopted a revision of the Gyrojet as their new Standard Issue sidearm/cartridge, meanwhile fake listings for said cartridge/firearm would be all over major online firearms retailers like Bud's Gun Shop, just to see how many folks would place orders for them.
I have a hunch that there would be a whole lot of folks who would immediately flock to said retailers, regardless of how ridiculous/impractical the supposed choice of the Military/FBI may be.

40 makes a good pistol caliber carbine.

Sales of the .40’s have gone off a cliff. That has been due to the adoption of the 9mm by the FBI and a number of other large agencies. The agencies claim they’ve gone to the 9mm because it’s just as effective (?), it is much less expensive, it’s easier to shoot well and gun life is significantly longer. Most of those reasons are certainly true but the main one, effectiveness, remains open to question. Regardless, sales of the .40 in the civilian market have really dried up. Used cop guns will be a dime a dozen - literally!

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Everybody could shoot

Dagnabbit, when the durn FBI tests stuff, it's for sure the right answer?

If I wouldn't feel comfortable in the east Texas woods with it I don't feel good about it in the city either. I have several 9mm pistols, but i'd never expect to drop a 250 pound hog in the woods with it unless I got lucky on shot placement. A .40 Smith & Wesson with a 180 flat point, I'd be happier.

There are so many police trade in .40's right now it is affecting the civilain owned, lower rounds count guns. I just saw a Glock 22 with not many rounds for sale at $330 shipped. I may have to grab that one.

Some won't agree , but that's ok. I bought a Springfield XD40 not long after they were available in that caliber I was torn between the 40 and the 9 in a subcompact, great gun flawless in operation. I just could not warm up to the caliber. I finally sold it and went to a Springfield 1911 45 acp and never looked back. i may get a Springfield XD45 because i like the platform, but I will never go back to the 40. if you like your 40 enjoy God bless, and no offence intended.

I'm not a big fan of 9x19, though I carry one as my church gun. I've always viewed 9mm the same as 38 Special and 308/3006. It's the largest caliber in a given platform that the average person can learn to shoot well. Now before you tell me how you shot Expert with an 88 Wonder Mag, and have almost stopped twitching, the average person is not a firearms person. Even in law enforcement and the military.

Real world results show that all the service calibers work about the same, so there's no reason to pick one caliber over another if effectiveness is the concern. Pick the caliber you like best. .40S&W will do the job just as well as 9mm or .45ACP or .357Sig. If you find a good .40S&W trade-in that you like and it's a better deal than the same gun in a different caliber, there's nothing wrong with choosing it.

My EDC for the past three years has been an M&P 40c. I'm a fan of the .40, and I have no use for the 9mm round. I had two 9mm pistols, but I converted one, a SIG P320 compact, to a .357 SIG. The other, a Shield, is now a safe queen. My thinking on my preferred caliber for carry was heavily influenced by an article I read about the Fort Hood terrorist attack in 2009. The terrorist punk who carried it out was eventually stopped by a police officer who hit him with five 9mm rounds. Because they did not kill the punk (he was paralyzed), he is now wasting taxpayer dollars with appeals of his death sentence. I got to thinking that if the officer had shot him with five .40 caliber rounds, that probably would have ended it then and there.

To me, my 40c has an excellent balance of compactness, hitting power, and capacity (11 rounds). It is easier to carry than my P320, and is more accurate and reliable than my Shield. So I'll stick with my 40c until something better comes along. If I ever have to defend myself or my loved ones, I'd prefer not to take the chance of merely wounding the bad guy.

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What, me worry?

The only problem with that line of thinking is that there will always be cases where an attacker didn't stop right away. What about the case of the guy who attacked a police officer in IL and didn't stop until he'd been hit with over a dozen rounds of .45ACP? Does that mean .45ACP is ineffective?

With today’s modern projectiles, there is not a scientifically significant difference in effectiveness among the common service handgun calibers.
Nothing works 100% all of the time.
My work issues Gen 3 and 4 Glock 23 .40 handguns. For the type of work my place does, a 9mm would be just as well.
For a rural agency with a higher percentage of “shooters” on the job and with the higher odds of encountering suspects in vehicles or mobile homes, I would suspect that the .40 would be preferable.
My nephew is an elected Sheriff in a rural county and is very pleased with the .40 round and the M&P pistols they issue. I enjoy reloading the .40 more than 9mm because the cases rarely have crimped primer pockets to deal with and it seems to have more consistent dimensions among the various ammo manufacturers.

I haven't owned a .40, but mostly because I don't want to stock another caliber. Physics will tell you that a .40 is more effective than a 9mm. What's subjective is how much that difference is, or makes. They are not physically the same though.

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Because of the metric system?

Yes, today the trend is away from the 40s to 9s. Also, the single stack pistols are commanding a higher price.
Carry concealability seems to be the driving force in much of the advertising which helps create these trends. The price of practice ammo is also a big consideration for many.
So, you'll need to go against the herd if you want to pick up a fine pistol at a great price.
Last week, I picked up a 90% SW4046 for $289. Yesterday, I took it to the range for the first time and put all rounds in post-its at 7 yards and rang the steel pig at 75 yards. Recoil is much softer with the 4046 than my CCW - Walther PPS40.
Buy the pistol that meets your needs - not your neighbors!

Years ago the FBI declared the .357 Magnum 125 grain Hollow Point the ultimate "man-stopper." In response SIG invented the 357 SIG, note no decimal point, which ran about 200 fps slower than the revolver round. Now 125-124 grain 9mm hollow points are running about 200 fts slower than the 357 SIG. One of the local ballistics mavens (maven: A guy who always knows exactly how much to tip!) can tell you how many feet you would have to be from the muzzle to get a loss of 400 fps in the Magnum round. Conclusion, with modern projectiles, all three rounds should have similar effects.
Geoff
Who carries low recoil .38 Special or 9mm in his sidearms, because the wife can handle them in an emergency, assuming she's already expended her revolver ammo.

How many .40mms are built on 9mm frames with a .40 cal barrel? If the guns aren't holding up, it's because the .40 batters the frame just from normal use. Did 10mms have more maintenance problems that any other semi where the frame was a built for the round fired?

The .40 cal is a bit like a S&W model 19 revolver. Yeah, it will shoot .357 magnums, but it will have a limited life rather than the 'indefinite' life of a K frame .38 special.

Whenever the weaknesses of a particular pistol are discovered after use in the field, it's easier to change calibers rather than address those problems.

And wouldn't it be great if police departments had at least a couple of pistols in their issue for those that can't handle a bigger gun well instead of the 'one size fits all' mentality.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Because the shooting world has finally realized that the 40 S&W was the answer to a question that never needed to be asked. We can't give them away at the shop anymore.

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Dave

I like 40 and own 2 of them. I also like 9mm and own 2 of them. The NYPD,LAPD, US Military and countries the world over have trusted the 9MM. 40S&W has mostly been an american law enforcement cartridge and if performs well, but nobody should be bashing the 9mm imo.

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S&W BG380, S&W 915 9mm

..and all this time I thought the 9mm would just bounce off of stuff.
Now it's the best thing out there,,,,again.

I've owned several 40 cal pistols and even used them on occasion in IDPA & USPSA matches. I consider myself to be a proficient shooter with over 30 yrs experience shooting handguns. Although I still believe 40 cal is the better all around duty caliber as far as barrier penetration, I can shoot 9mm faster & more accurately than 40. It showed with my hit ratio/times in USPSA. If the difference is consistently noticeable during a match, imagine what the difference would be under extreme stress of a life or death moment? It can cost you dearly.

I used to poke fun at people that would carry a .32 acp or even a .25. But if they can hit the bullseye consistently & faster at 7 yards than me with a 40 or 9mm, then god bless them.

Monkey see, monkey do.

I never did like following trends just for the sake of being fashionable, hence I never jumped onto the 40 S&W band wagon, so there is no need for me to jump off now. I will buy a 40 S&W pistol now if I see one float buy at what I think is a good price.

Police departments buy new guns about every ten years or so. As an example my former department recently traded in their Sig P226s in .40 for new P229s in...40! They are happy with the caliber, FBI report not withstanding. i'm suggesting there are many cases where trade ins are replaced with the same caliber. Has anyone seen industry production figures for ammo sales?

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Made it, Ma! Top of the world!

I'm sorry, but I've said it before and I'll say it again right here... The existence of freak occurrences in which all major handgun cartridges have failed to immediately stop an attacker does not mean that all handgun cartridges are equal, it merely goes to illustrate the importance of shot-placement in a self-defense scenario.

Anyone who understands basic physics will tell you that a bigger, heavier projectile has greater momentum and therefore greater force, ergo a bigger, heavier bullet will hit harder, penetrate deeper, smash through bones more easily, and leave behind a larger wound cavity, especially so with Jacketed Hallow Point bullets. All of those factors combined mean that a person who is shot by a bigger, heavier bullet is going to take more damage and likely experience a greater amount of pain, thus increasing the odds of either incapacitation or a psychological stop from non-vital hits to the target.

You'll read a lot of articles online of freak occurrences in which an attacker took several bullets and kept on coming, but few of these articles detail just how long the attacker remained mobile afterwards, and there lies the clincher. Yes, shot-placement is key, and no one should ever rely heavily on uncertainties like eventual incapacitation due to blood loss or a psychological stop, but that doesn't prevent such things from being factors, and personally I would prefer a bigger, heavier bullet like .40 S&W or .45 ACP which in the unfortunate event that I fail to score a vital hit, will likely improve the odds of stopping the attacker sooner via incapacitation or convincing them to retreat.

In closing, if you feel most comfortable/confident carrying a 9mm, then more power to you, nobody is saying that the 9mm is ineffective, in fact I myself regularly carry .380 ACP, but don't go believing or spreading this nonsensical assertion that 9mm is equal to heavier cartridges because it simply isn't true.
Statistics can be very misleading and are often backed by information which hasn't been compiled in equal measure. For example, did you know that based on statistics, .22LR has stopped more attackers than any other cartridge? It's true, look it up. But how can the .22LR possibly have a statistically higher volume of stopping attacks than any other cartridge? Simple, because more people own a .22 caliber firearm than any other cartridge, the .22LR has very little recoil which makes it very easy to stay on target, pull off quick follow-up shots, and these statistics don't take into account how many times each cartridge has failed to stop an attacker, ergo the results are hopelessly skewed and beget misleading results due to an uneven sample size. By the way, this is also true of most statistics, hence why many folks take statistics with a grain of salt.

Departments follow trends. Ok. Lots of nicely priced 40s out there. For a civilian, at least one with a Glock, it would seem more cost effective to buy a 9mm barrel for your 40 than to sell a 40 and buy a 9. Then you have both.

Then buy the .22 conversion kit as well. They are lots of fun.

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Certified Curmudgeon

I eschew the .40 for one reason and one reason only. COST. As far as the 9 being less powerful-simple solution. Shoot twice.
I've owned firearms for close to 50 years and with the exception of shooting my little brother with the BB gun way back when , I have not yet had the opportunity to shoot anyone else so I can't comment of whether or not my 9 will do the job. If I ever do shoot someone, I'll be sure to post the results.
Maybe Sig220.45 will chime in. As retired FBI I'm sure he's shot lots of people over his career.

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Forum consigliere

Oh jeeez! You let the cat out of the bag! I did it too... maybe we need to start a “little brother” thread

I can only add that I have overheard several conversations between the many LEOs who belong to my outdoor range club. What I have gathered is that the demise of the 40 and return to the 9 is a result of the Speer LE 124gr 9mm+P Gold Dot and similar offerings

My 40 does all I could ask of it very well, as do ALL my other calibers. If they didn't, they would have moved on some time ago. I like to have a diversity of calibers, "just in case". Too MANY tools in the toolbox??? NOT IMO. More for us at a lower price.

Never tried the .40 until the giveaway began.
Started with a $275 Glock 22.
And continued.
Discovered I like the caliber. Being a handloader, anything's possible.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

Remembering 25 years ago when everybody was starting to buy the 40. My reaction, then and now, was how could everybody be so stupid all at the same time. Kind of like the stock market. The 9 mm was perfect then and better now with the new powders (if you need better). I knew the 40 would fade. Just didn't think it would take 25 years. Kind of like the 45 GAP. Ten years ago every agency in Georgia seemed to be going to the GAP. Now it's about an abandoned cartridge. The GAP really was better than the 9 mm too. If you can't get happy with what you have, just buy a 45 ACP and you will be good to go forever.

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Dr. B

Haha, not hardly! But I am in the little brother BB gun club. Shot him with my "Spittin' Image of 1894"

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Way back in the early 1990s when the .40 first came out, I admit that I fell for the hype hook, line and sinker. "9mm capacity, .45 power!" I bought a 4006 and soon discovered that I couldn't shoot it near as well as a 9mm or a .45acp. I spent two years experimenting with factory loads and just about every bullet and powder out there. Never did warm up to it.
Then when I decided to get rid of the gun, I found I couldn't hardly give it away. Finally managed to trade it off and lost my butt on the deal.
If you like the .40, that's fine with me. But I never had any use for the thing.

And while many praise the 9mm, I agree with Walnutred in that its really in the same class as a good .38 special. I do own some fine 9mm pistols and do believe they will get the job done. But I don't think its the end all, be all in self defense.

The fact is that I'm an old fashioned 1911 .45acp guy. A Colt Commander in that caliber is my preferred defensive handgun. Bigger holes are better! But at the same time, I'm also a believer in shot placement and ease of carry. Thus I have been known to carry a .38 revolver, .380 or even a .25acp when circumstances called for it.

Ultimately, I all comes down to what you're comfortable with. Carry what you feel is best for you and don't worry about what anybody else thinks.

Where in the heck are all these cheap 40s ?

I don't shoot 40 or 45 anymore much due to tired joints. Also you are taking ballistic math problems with a "single answer solution" (meaning A number, not a range of numbers) on paper and shooting it into a markedly diverse sea of humanity. I have examined a lot of bullets in Pathology over the years out West that were largely 9mm and full metal jacket at that! Shot placement is still the #1 thing. I have done autopsies on people killed with a .22LR. The differences on paper don't really show up much in people. Huge difference in bodies and mentality. Plus the math numbers are really very small in real life. There isn't a universal agreement among the "experts" anyway. So shoot what you do best.

Are they like the 41 mags no one wants?

Please let me know when 41 mags go on sale, my fav. Got my brother in the eye with a slingshot, luckily he still can use that eye. Mom wouldnt let us have BB guns, lost the slingshot after that as well.

It's mostly a regional thing. If your local Law Enforcement/State Police were among those who played follow-the-leader with the FBI, then you'll find a lot of police surplus/trade-in .40cal pistols, not to mention civilian-owned pistols by folks who played follow-the-leader with the police because apparently they're ignorant of cartridge conversion and thus opted to trade-in their .40cal pistols for 9mms rather than simply going online and buying a new barrel, recoil spring, and magazines in 9mm which would cost much less.

That said, you can also keep your eye on online retailers such as Bud's Gun Shop. Last year around this time they had a crazy amount of police surplus M&P40s with engraved slides, night sights, and 3 magazines for about $300, most of which were unissued and thus practically brand new.

You are correct. It was developed basically as a face saver for the FBI when their 10MM concept fell flat for law enforcement. The 10MM is a great caliber, but too large and too much recoil for many current FBI agents.

Law enforcement jumped on the band wagon just because it came about due to the FBI and their adopting it. The problem is that it is just too "snappy" and will do little that a properly loaded 9MM or .45 will do.

I see them in local gun shops about 10 to 1 over 9MM and 45 third generation S&W's. They are also priced much lower than comparable guns in other calibers.

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Bill

I'll take ALL you have, no charge. I'd hate to see someone in your condition. Do you deliver?

Lol...........at what point do we deem this beating a dead horse.

.40 not going anywhere.

And no, it doesn't "batter" a gun to death.

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Un-Reconstructed Southerner

Well you could, but I would suggest following your lawyers advice which probably KYBMS. That would include internet posts, myself if I am ever put in that situation in my future, I will disappear from the social planet.

I agree with you on the importance of shot placement, but in the real world approximately 50% of shots fired in a gun battle miss their intended targets completely. Therefore that is only one of the factors to consider.

For me, the single most important requirement in a firearm of any kind is reliability. After that is an effective caliber. Shot placement comes some place after that, and "accuracy", which I hear all the time, comes in dead last.

AFAIK, 125 grain full-powered .357 Magnum ammo is still top of the heap for effectiveness, followed closely by 45 ACP and 9mm. The new +P .38 Special HP ammo has a very good reputation, also.

Never owned or fired a 40. I am kind of a dinosaur when it comes to different calibers. I own a 9mm browning HP and it is nostalgic.. First pistol bought brand new for 94.00. I have a ppk/s and that will be going away soon. For fun guns, obviously the 22 cal model 17-3 is hard to beat.. Business revolvers 357 mag ( 38), and every once in a while some 44 mags. Business semi's, 45 acp.

Rifles the same way. A couple 22's, a 222, a 22-250, and 4 -30-06. Why 30-06? It is the largest caliber I shoot with comfort. Kind of vanilla I know

It's all a trade-off between hitting power, carryability, accuracy, and capacity. Everyone has to make a decision about what works best for them. I am certainly not wedded to the 40. I'm always willing to consider a superior alternative, but my M&P 40c has been such an excellent gun for me (with nearly 12,000 rounds through it), that I still haven't found a replacement. My Shield 45 has come the closest so far. It's just as accurate and it's easier to carry, but I still like those three extra rounds in my 40c.

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What, me worry?

I've been beating the "Buy the LEO surplus 40's" drum for at least
a year.

Last spring my son and I bought shields in 40 S&W. Over the
summer we ran a couple k thru them. They work fine.

I knew the FBI wannabe's were dropping their 40S&W service
pistols as fast as they could. SO I started looking on Gun Broker
for them.

I picked up a Glock 22 from Vernal UT for $308.00 in my hands.
Still had the copper anti-seize in the slide.

Then I found several SIG P229's for around $350.00. Got a P226 for $428.00.

They are still out there.And can be found for really reasonable prices.

I cast and have been loading 180gr powder coated rounds with
5.4gr of Power Pistol and S&B small primers. Runs 880fps from
the shield with 24fps SD.

Never thought I'd be able to afford SIG's and now I have a bunch.

The only other thing I've been doing is getting 9mm Conversion
barrels for them. That just makes them more fun.

Check out the broker and be patient. You'll find them.

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never get out of the boat

I had a conversation a few days ago with a retired big-city homicide detective on this very topic, and his real-world observations are most interesting. One of his duties was to investigate every officer-involved shooting. Because this was a large city with plenty of bad guys, there were a lot of these. As part of his investigation, he asked each officer how the BG responded when hit. Those who were hit by 9mm rounds flinched somewhat, but maintained their equilibrium. Those who were hit by .45, .357 Mag, or .357 SIG rounds tended to be knocked backwards. His reviews of the wound channels of the BGs who did not survive were consistent with the officers' descriptions. He did not mention the .40 cal., and I forgot to ask about it. It's possible his department did not issue 40s. Since he's a range officer at my range, the next time I see him, I'll ask.

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What, me worry?

Honestly, my current EDC is a 380. It go's everywhere with me. The thought of going to a larger caliber has been brought on by my hiking in the New Hampshire wilds. If I were to run across the rare bear or large cat up in the mountains I have concerns that a .380 may not be enough. In the past my "woods" guns have ranged from 22Lr's up to 44mag more or less dependent on where I hiked and which state I was in. When all I could afford was my 22Lr I was more than comfortable, never felt under gunned, and much younger. I guess as I have aged, slowed down, and gotten less inclined to out run or out fight any critter 2 or 4 legged. I will say that of all the guns I have carried in the woods and out in public the 22 is the only one I had used in self defense (feral dogs deep in the woods). I was very glad I had it at the time.
I'm preferring a semiauto with enough punch to get the job done in .40 or .45... decisions decisions...

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John