they're going with the same rifle SEALS use, 300 win mag.



U.S. Marines Are Getting a New Sniper Rifle

$12,000 a piece!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At that price I probably won’t ever have one! It will be interesting to see a fully equipped one.

__________________
Hue 68 noli me tangere

once all the old riles are replaced with new rifles what will happen to them?

Will the old rifles be made available to Civilians for purchase through the Civilian Marksmanship program?

I think they get a "free" case with that.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

For $13,000 per rifle both the Corps and the taxpayers are getting hosed.

I am given to understand that Marines can do an incredible amount of damage with thirty dollar rifles.

__________________
Certified Curmudgeon

I wonder if that is just the price of the rifle?

Is the Nghtforce Optics additional?

Then add in Thermal Imaging.

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

One department of the government selling another department a kit-built rifle... and you guys are complaining about a 3-4x market price? C’mon!

Ok, that price includes the optics and mounts, stock, bipod and probably the carrying case but still...............................

I got to use a Nightforce scope at a LR match one time, quality optics, but I expect the markup is exceptional.

12,000 dollars, huh. I'm sitting here eating crackers and cheese and a beer. I'm debating to get an older Remington shot gun for 300.00 dollars or should I buy food. The Navy is going to spend 12,000 dollars for one each sniper rifle, huh.

__________________
My brother is my Hero

When? Back when you could buy a surplus Springfield .30-06 for $39.95?

Great news!!!!! So, does that mean all the M-14s will soon be on the market?? . . . . . . .. I've always wanted one. No, not saying these were used to snipe with much, I just want one.

I maybe wrong? but I dont think so? but maybe? but I do believe the gentleman was making an off-hand reference to the Carcano and JFK's assassination. Or maybe he was off by a sawbuck???

Good news!
The sooner they get then in the field, the better!
Front Line Troops deserve First Class Equipment.

__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER

A single criminal act, three shots from a thirty dollar surplus Carcano changed history.

__________________
Certified Curmudgeon

But then you make up for it by using rounds that cost $1.50 each instead of rockets that cost a whole lot more launched from planes and tanks that burn a whole lot more worth of fuel.

Been thinking on this all day,has to be the optics that get the price up there. The best of parts and machine work just couldn’t be that much cash.

__________________
Hue 68 noli me tangere

If just one Marine make's it back home to his family alive and not crippled due to this weapon system and it's highly trained Marine sniper's it's worth more than $12,000.
This weapon isn't going to be issued to every Marine in the Corps.

I guess not many on this forum have served or have family serving in the military during this War on Terror that our military has been fighting for over 17 years.

So sleep well tonight all you upset tax payers,
brave young Patriots wiling to fight & kill the things you fear are standing guard keeping our Country free and safe.

Pretty soon now, the Gyrenes will be able to do this -

A Canadian sniper breaks the record for the longest confirmed kill shot - but how?
- BBC Newsbeat

__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER

Optics are now issued in boot camp on the rifle's to qualify with along with the old iron battle sights in case the red dot's get damaged or batteries die.
Welcome to the 21st century.

I seem to recall that for contracts like these, they include the rifle, the accessories, spare parts, armorer training, and whatever factory support is stipulated. The contract specifies and overall sum and then some rocket scientist divides that up by the number of riflez to come up with a figure like that.

Actually the Carcano (with scope) was only $19.95.
I kept the American Rifleman magazine from February 1963.
The Klein's ad is on page 65, from which Oswald ordered the
rifle. Without scope it was only $12.88.

108 rounds of 6.5 Italian military ammo and a clip was an
additional $7.50.

I bought one for a deer hunting rifle for my wife (without scope).
It was very fast and very accurate. No question in my mind
that Oswald could do with that rifle, what he was supposed to do.

__________________
In Omnia Paratus

The Army has been using "tree hunert winny mag" for several years.

Good boooolits for defeatings of ISIS.

Well said. When I was in Nam we had a few 4x Colt scopes on M16A1’s and one of the new rifles would have been nice.

__________________
Hue 68 noli me tangere

If that's what it takes for these guys to make a shot at over 1,000 yards, then that is money well spent.

All things considered it is a real small price tag in the overall military budget.

Heck some folks on this forum could pull two guns out the safe and probably make $12,000. Heck, how is spent on cars, tools and other toys??

Heck buy a Dillon press,(with all the extras)

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Don't get me wrong guys......... the troops should get what they need..... it's the bean counters that waste my tax money that urks me!!!!!!

Toilet Seats, hammers......it's been reported that 50% of our aircraft grounded waiting for parts for repair........I would like the folks in DC and elsewhere to be good Stewards of our tax dollars..... not view us as a piggy bank to be raided!

I believe RARifleman's comments are correct.....

OzarkMarine......all that said it's still hard to believe a $12,000 per-unit cost for a rifle/scope being built in-house ( if I understood the link correctly).... and I hope parts/optics are being bought wholesale from the manufacture not retail for MSRP!

Edit: the Nightforce ATACR 5-25x56 scope retail on Opticplanet is $2,600...... unless they need to be custom built for the .300 round.

The problem (for me ) is that is the attitude ( within the beltway) on each and every line item in their budgets.....add them all together...... and it adds up to real dollars.

Being able to re-purpose the old M-14s from the 50/60s was a great idea when we found ourselves in a war often fought at longer ranges than the AR was designed to platform

Granted, no one ever said the Government was a "thrifty" group. It's not like they have to balance a budget or anything.

In the trillions of dollars I would still rather see a few million spent on the guys that actually do something!

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Pricing aside, I wonder why they chose the .300 mag? Don't get me wrong, I have one and really like it, but there's been a plethora of long range calibers lately.
Are they better? I don't know, but other branches are using them. Lapuas ( different calibers) especially.
I'd like to know why they like the .300.
And what weight bullets?

People keep getting this confused.

On January 27, 1963, Oswald ordered a Smith & Wesson "Victory" Model .38 special revolver from Seaport Traders of Los Angeles, for $29.95 plus postage and handling.

On March 12, 1963, Oswald ordered the 6.5 Carcano carbine by mail from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago from an advertisement in the February 1963 American Rifleman. He paid $19.95 plus postage and handling by money order. His order included the rifle ($12.78), a new 4x telescopic sight ($7.17) that was mounted as part of the package deal.

So he shot a police officer with a $30 S&W Victory Model in .38 Special, and shot Kennedy with a $20 rifle and scope.

Oswald's revolver was a .38/200 Lend Lease revolver, serial number V510210, converted to .38S&W Special with the barrel shortened to 2". A new S&W revolver at the time would have cost about $65.

Also proves another theory ive had on oswald for a long time that not onlywas he a pig, but he was a cheapskate pig.

It's whoever squeezes the trigger that counts. Carlos Hathcock and Adelbert Waldron did pretty well with their 1960s technology.

I wanted to bump up my hunting rifle from a 30-06 to something more powerful. I passed up the 300wm, I looked at the 375 H&H. But settled on the Remington 700 in 338 win mag. That’s all there was available back in ‘94. With its 4,000ft lbs at the muzzle and 2700 ft lbs at 200yds that’s the muzzle energy of a 30-06.

Why did they choose the 300wm? They have the 338 Lapula? England and canada use it.

I’m surprised we never looked at the 7.62x39 and made it a 6.5 x 45 or 7 x 45 replacing the 233.

Jessie, they already have lots of .30 cal bullets of all types and lots of info on them. I think a 300 win mag fits a standard long action as well,making everything more standard is probably a consideration. I would think they will use a long ,heavy,low drag bullet for sniping and maybe armor piercing
for heavier duty work when needed. Be interesting to see what and how with the weapon system they will develop.

__________________
Hue 68 noli me tangere

in the m16. The 6.5 Swede and 7mm Mauser are two very accurate rounds.

Fact Oswald wasn’t alone.

A marine can take a hill with a sling shot and a bag of marbles I have faith in them.

Btw. I put a top of the line back then a bushnell scope that has a mechanical bull drop compisation out to 500yds you dope the scope. There’s no error from 150yds to 500yds.

I been looking for a b&c class buck for years he eludes me but sticks his tounge out at other hunters a long distances. I’d give him a kiss right behind his ear.

If they'd a asked me and they insisted on .30 I'da suggested .300Wby. It's even better.

I've played the long range game for 8-10 years now. It is not uncommon to see guys (pure civilians, like me) with a $4000 custom rifle at the outings. Add a quality daytime scope of $1500-4000, add a nighttime scope for? (My only night scope is a T-3 from the early 1950's they weren't any good beyond 150-200 yards; That's when mounted on a Bazooka for hunting tanks!)

I think the contract price is about par for the quality they are suppose to get. The first problem, do the delivered guns meet specs? The second problem, How often will the barrels be replaced and with what and by who (whom)? My 338 Lapua barrel is almost wiped out at about 650-700 rounds, my 308 is still very good at 2400-2500 rounds. The 300 Win Mag mod 2 ammo is a +P verity with a 210 grain bullet, that is a lot of wear on each shot. The payoff is this has considerably less recoil than the 338 Lapua! The payoff comes in a sustained engagement when the rifleman is still capable after 5 or more hours of recoil! Also, if the Mod. 2 ammo is $1.50 a round (in quantity), it is about 25% the price of good 338 ammo, and reports say the 300 Mod 2 is a reliable kill round to 1800 yards (over 1 mile). My 338 is a 1/4 MOA gun at 800 yards (and probably much further!) My 308 is 1/10 MOA gun at 200 and proven out 1100 yards, but that is a long way short of a mile! The key to all this isn't only good equipment, it requires practice! In the range of 20 to 40 rounds a minimum of twice a month. That costs time, ammo, and wear to the guns. The second 2 equal money, repeated long term money! Can and will the Army, Navy and USMC continue to field well equipped, well trained, and well practiced snipers? That is the question!

By the way, if you think this system is expensive, check out the prices on what the British and Canadians are using! They field fewer snipers in numbers as well as percentages! (As usual the French don't count! They have been setting records for One Shot Kills. But they aren't in Combat, aren't at people, and took 7 days to do!)

This is just my 2 cents worth.

Ivan

Lt.O'Bannon did not have much more than that sling shot 213 years ago.

I did not say LHO was alone. I would imagine he had assistance in planning and/or carrying out his 'mission'. I also think he was fully capable of making those three shots with the training and equipment he had.

I am not generally oposed to marine snipers having $7,000 rifles marked up to twelve in order to sell them to the government. But the Marine is the weapon, not some guy carrying the weapon.

__________________
Certified Curmudgeon

Ivan, hopefully the powers that be have become wiser. In the past when I paid more attention to this kind of topic the military budget seemed heavily tilted toward acquisition rather than maintenance or use. Sorta like the person who buys a new car and seems blissfully unaware that there will be ANY follow on costs.

__________________
Certified Curmudgeon

What the heck does Oswald have to do with his thread?

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Gunny Heathcock jumped back and forth between the 30-06 and 300 Win mag so in essence they are.
Ex Bil had a confirmed kill he spoke of at 1200 yards. The rifle weighed 125 lbs was in 3 pieces and it took a squad to carry it. The key here is light weight with 3/4 mile accuracy.

__________________
Front sight and squeeze

12K is peanuts.

The military spent about 600 billion in 2015.

__________________
That's just somebody talkin.

Just an illustration that the individual (reprehensible as he may be) who recieves the training is in fact 'The Weapon'. The wood, brass, lead, steel and polymer is not.

__________________
Certified Curmudgeon

The 300 WM has been in the military supply chain for awhile now, it isn't really a "new" cartridge for snipers. Actually snipers have been using it since the early 90's. If a really good sniper can make a 1600 yd shot with it I would say it's a pretty good cartridge.


American Sniper Rifles: 5 of Chris Kyle’s Favorite Sniper Rifles - PrecisionRifleBlog.com

Here's some info on bullets.

American Rifleman | Unsung Hero: The Mk 248 MOD 1

I'm not a fan of the 30's, but then, I'm not a military sniper.

I love my HBAR .223 bolt rifle.

__________________
That's just somebody talkin.

I'll jump in on the $12,000 price per rifle. I've sold stuff to the US Military for years.

I needed an accumulator once (piece of hydraulic equipment). A guy made the exact ones we wanted. Cost was not unreasonable. But we spent hours helping him certify that it met dozens of government specs. So it gets added into the cost of the contract.

You buy 2 or 3 or even 300 of something and a few hundred thousand, or a couple of million of procurement costs get divided by just a few articles. You end up with crazy per-item costs, like the famous $600 toilet seat (for an aircraft, that probably had to meet all the aircraft specifications for a "seat." ) But much of the cost is dozens of people spending a year or more certifying that the item meets all requirements.

Don't get me wrong, the government needs to have requirements. The people who use the equipment deserve stuff that works. But of that $4.3M I could easily see half being spent ensuring that the contract meets requirements, and the parts meet spec. Takes the cost down to $6000 per rifle. A lot of guys at the national matches have that much in a custom rifle.

Most don't understand how military contracting works. The contract most likely includes lots of items and services beyond the rifle alone.

When I was doing ammunition development for the USAF, I often worked with the Navy's small arms group at NSWC-Crane (IN). Back in the early 2000s they were working on .300 WM sniper rifles. I fired some on their range.

The 300 Win mag has proven itself in long range competition for several decades.
It has also proven itself as a combat proven round in the military under adverse real world conditions for several decades.
Yes, there are other long range rounds, but the 300 Win mag is firmly entrenched with the military.
Military and government contracting is akin to sausage making. You may or may not like the end product, but you really don’t want to know how it all got made.
I have been involved in long range precision shooting professionally since 83. Our craft has evolved tremendously as has our tools. A 12,000 custom built rifle with optics is certainly not out of the norm these days.
I am familiar with the rifles that are produced at NSWC, Crane and have shot with and alongside military snipers for years.
Our troops deserve the best tools we can provide them, to perform the dangerous tasks that we send them out to do.
Our military sniper schools produce some of the most competent rifle shooters on the planet, they deserve cutting edge rifles.