An Old Knife

[Onomea]

A couple of weeks ago I was in an antique store on the Oregon coast and saw this knife for sale for $30. I asked to take a look at it, then offered $25. The woman minding the store said she was only authorized to reduce by 10%. So it came home with me for $27. Cleaned it up a bit today.







I like knives. This one, made by a now defunct company called Western, has seen a lot of honest wear. There is a wedge thru the blade, right below the hilt, to hold it in place, and a split tang held in place by two pins in the end cap. (The split tang and two pins was a selling point for the company.)

The back of the blade, and the pommel, show signs of light hammering. Overall, it is quite light.

It seems to me the sheath is clearly an inexpensive aftermarket product. It serves its purpose well enough, though, and I put some Leather n Rich on it. Buffed it a bit on my pants leg.

A little research on the blade stamp revealed that the knife was made between about 1935 and 1950 or so.

Nothing special here. Wasn’t worth much new, I suspect, and isn’t worth much now, either, but it is a servicable knife, and I am pleased to give it a good home.

[Combat]

I little more research might reveal that it's a WWII knife.

[Onomea]

I suppose it might have been carried in WWII, but it is a very light, thin knife. Lighter than a Ka-Bar and much lighter, of course, than a Cattaraugus 225Q. 6” blade though.

[k22fan]

While it could have been issued by the navy as a substitute for their standard Mark I deck knife or privately purchased by a serviceman in any branch I doubt you could ever learn where it’s been. I prefer to speculate that is was used to dress and skin lots of deer. If it was only used to make sandwiches, kindling and marshmallow sticks and clean fish that’s also preferable.

It appears that if the leather pieces shrink they can be tightened by driving the wedge in moving the hilt back. That’s a clever design. Unlike Marble, Case and military knives the fuller extends all the way back to the tang. Perhaps the combination of a longer fuller and two-piece tang was to reduce weight. It’s an interesting old knife.

[Onomea]

Here are some additional photos, showing the handle and tang, and the “wedge.”

Looking at it closely, it looks like what I call the “wedge” is a solid, circular piece of metal, or resin, cut in half and forced through the opening in the split tang near the guard. Following up on k22fan’s thought, maybe the idea was when the handle got loose, force something else in there to tighten it up...












I think the exposed tang on both sides of the handle interesting.

[mauser9]

I read Western knife company was started in 1896 in Boulder. Don't blame you for grabbing it up as I like old knives myself. Be great to know what year made.

[Chubbo]

Here is a knife of the same brand, but different model. It is very special to me. I've cleaned it up a bit, as it was in pretty bad shape when I got it out of storage. It had been put away and neglected, for 45 years, since our youngest Son's death, at 20 years of age. His death was caused by an irresponsible person, a dope peddler by trade. Enough of the sad story. This knife was bought for our son to use on Boy Scout, and Family camping trips. It is in well used condition, but, I wanted it to look as good as it did when he was using it. Your knife sure brought back memories. Here are pictures of it. Thanks for sharing.
Chubbo

[Onomea]

That looks like a good, solid knife, Chubbo. Glad you cleaned it up. Use it in good health, and in memory of your son.

[bgrafsr]

Originally Posted by Chubbo

Here is a knife of the same brand, but different model. It is very special to me. I've cleaned it up a bit, as it was in pretty bad shape when I got it out of storage. It had been put away and neglected, for 45 years, since our youngest Son's death, at 20 years of age. His death was caused by an irresponsible person, a dope peddler by trade. Enough of the sad story. This knife was bought for our son to use on Boy Scout, and Family camping trips. It is in well used condition, but, I wanted it to look as good as it did when he was using it. Your knife sure brought back memories. Here are pictures of it. Thanks for sharing.
Chubbo

I have the same knife, which I bought in the late 50's I believe. Carried it on my belt in Viet Nam. If I can find it, I'll take a photo of it and the sheath.

[Alpo]

Chubbo, that one appears to be a Western 66. I've got one (somewhere, if I can find it) with a rosewood handle. Very nice blade length/shape.

[bamacisa]

I used to live in Key West, Fl. I had a flat bottom row boat. One day , I found a knife like that in the boat. Someone had been in the boat and lost the knife. I still have the knife.

[Muss Muggins]

I had an old Western, similar to the OP's. Not sure where it is now. Pretty good knife for what it was . . .

[Texas Star]

I have an old Western, bought used in 1963 from a fellow airman before I got Buck, then Randall and Hibben knives.

Has about a 3.5 inch Finn-like blade and a sheath with impressed floral stamp like the sheath above.

See, The Bridges at Toko-Ri for a view of the larger Western "shark knife" carried by F-9F Panther pilot Harry Brubaker, played by Wm. Holden. His CAP has a PAL RH-36 knife. Look for the knives on their life jackets. I think the shark knife had an eight-inch blade.

I knew another airman who had a different Western with about an eight inch blade. It looked like a pretty good knife.

The USAF BX sold Western knives and Denver stores had them.

Movie clip: Note Western knife on pilot's vest. Pommel is drilled for wrist thong.

YouTube

[bgrafsr]

Mine is a "skinner". The tang is exposed on top and bottom of handle. Stamped on the brass guard is L39. Stamped on the blade in 3 lines is:
Western
Boulder, Colo.
U.S.A.
Sheath has seen better days and the leather is sliced on the blade side opening. Knife has seen better days also.

[THE PILGRIM]

Here’s my Sears Buffalo Skinner,
Most likely a Western.

[Onomea]

For you guys with Westerns, here is a chart of chronological blade stamps I found on the internet:



More info here: Western Boulder | BladeForums.com

[bearfoot]

have a Western down in the garage. bought maybe early 60's. the handle is/ seems to be alium/ markarta/ metal spacer formed for the hand w/ a tang formed downward on the butt. the sheath is black leather. used it for years.

[Combat]

The knife you have is also known as the standard no.3 Shark knife as supplied to the US Govt. during WWII. From pg. 61 of the book, US military knives, by M H Cole. There is one in the rt. hand upper corner of this pic of some of my WWII collection.

[steveno]

my dad's L48B has "Western" in the top row , "Boulder , Colo" in the second row and "made in USA" in the third row. this stamping doesn't appear in the previous thread showing the various stampings. another variation of stampings maybe?

[Onomea]

Originally Posted by Combat

The knife you have is also known as the standard no.3 Shark knife as supplied to the US Govt. during WWII. From pg. 61 of the book, US military knives, by M H Cole. There is one in the rt. hand upper corner of this pic of some of my WWII collection.

Combat, can’t see your picture — Photobucket now charges for posting pix, so a lot of us lost our pictures — but assume you are talking about my knife in the first post of this thread.

Very interesting! I was skeptical that it could have been a military issue because it is so lightweight.

Thanks for the info!

(I am using a free picture posting service, postimage, that others here have recommended, with success. You might try that.)

[Onomea]

Originally Posted by steveno

my dad's L48B has "Western" in the top row , "Boulder , Colo" in the second row and "made in USA" in the third row. this stamping doesn't appear in the previous thread showing the various stampings. another variation of stampings maybe?

Sounds like the same stamp that bgrafsr’s knife, above, has. I think it must be a variation that the chart I posted does not have.

[Oscar Zulu]

I have my fathers 4' Western he bought in Japan during the Korean War. He carried it in a leg pocket of his flight suit. He told me it was to be used to pop his life raft if it ever inflated in the cockpit.
It went on to be his primary hunting knife, and rides sheath and all in a slot on the sheath of his Knapp Hunting Kit, a well made bone saw. He must have used it quite a bit as it is sharpened enough to have narrowed the blade. Elk and mule deer.

[DWalt]

I have one very similar to it put away somewhere. Except it has a Boy Scout (BSA with fleur-de-leis) stamping. I don't think it has a WESTERN stamp, but I'd have to locate it to be sure. It was old when I got it many years ago.

[Combat]

I'm sorry you can't see my pic in this thread OP, and I don't know why you can't. I downloaded the photobucket patch from firefox and I use PB the same way I always have. It shows up fine for me.

[Onomea]

Re not seeing your pic, maybe something to do with my using an iPad?

Anyway, glad it is visible to most of us, and thanks for identifying my knife.

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by Onomea

Combat, can’t see your picture — Photobucket now charges for posting pix, so a lot of us lost our pictures — but assume you are talking about my knife in the first post of this thread.

(I am using a free picture posting service, postimage, that others here have recommended, with success. You might try that.)

The pictures are still there in PB. You can copy all of them at once and move them to any other similar photo service. At least I had no problem doing that. I use IMGUR, it works fine and is free. Anyone with the PB patch can still see old images pasted from PB to threads. Unless PB has recently come up with some way to prevent that.

[Chubbo]

I found a mod. number stamped in the brass guard, of this knife, that I hadn't noticed before, it's L66. The leather sheath for it, is stamped with the same design as Bgrafsr"s. The blade stamping, is not like any on the chart, and, I notice that different models, have different thickness of plastic spacers, in the handle, for the different models of their knives. I believe that somewhere along the line in the evaluation of this knife brand, that Western, was taken over by the Estwing Co., and I think, they are still in business today.

Chubbo

[Highhawk1948]

Nice find. I found one years ago in the woods. It was Western's Boy Scout model.

[k22fan]

A year ago in a pawn/gun shop I stumbled onto a Western with the same 5" up swept point blade that THE PILGRIM's old Sears Buffalo Skinner has. Mine has a hard wood handle. Except for the sheath drying a bit it is in brand new condition. At $20 O.T.D. I did not dicker. It has the tang stamp shown above for carbon blades 1991-2007 over the date stamp J. The 10 year old thread that the tang stamp chart was borrowed from does not include individual year alphabet codes. If any one can post what year my Western was made I'd appreciate it.

[DWalt]

I did find mine. It has a 4" blade. Western is stamped into the blade steel on one side, the Boy Scout insignia (Fleur-de-leis) is stamped into the steel on other side. The brass snap button for the retaining strap on the leather sheath also has the Boy Scout insignia on it. The "Western" stamp is unlike any of those shown in #16. In three lines: WESTERN/BOULDER, COLO/MADE IN U.S.A. (WESTERN is about twice the height of letters in the lower two lines). The leather disc handle does have the red band, top and bottom, and the aluminum base is held on with two transverse pins. It has been well used.

Any idea as to its dating?

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by DWalt

I did find mine. It has a 4" blade. Western is stamped into the blade steel on one side, the Boy Scout insignia (Fleur-de-leis) is stamped into the steel on other side. The brass snap button for the retaining strap on the leather sheath also has the Boy Scout insignia on it. The "Western" stamp is unlike any of those shown in #16. In three lines: WESTERN/BOULDER, COLO/MADE IN U.S.A. (WESTERN is about twice the height of letters in the lower two lines). The leather disc handle does have the red band, top and bottom, and the aluminum base is held on with two transverse pins. It has been well used.

Any idea as to its dating?

I just looked at mine. Same description, Boy Scout model. Mine was bought for me at age 13. That was 1967.

[DWalt]

For sure, mine goes back to before 1967. I had it back in the mid-50s, and it wasn't new then. I can't say where it came from as I don't remember. My knife blade could use some cleaning and polishing, but the leather sheath is still in pretty good condition with tight stitching. I did sharpen the knife several years ago.

[THE PILGRIM]

One more picture.
These are Real Pilots vs. Reel Pilots!

[THE PILGRIM]

The Navy likes to carry their blades up high and in front.
Probably a good idea for water landings-entanglements.
I have had sharp blades cut completely through shearhs, so I am concerned about that happening.
Sometimes AF folks seem to be going ‘Navy.’

[clipper1]

Well, I just discovered that the knife I picked up at a yard sale 8 or 10 yrs ago is a western. Legend on the blade reads:
WESTERN
U.S.A. L66
E
It has 4.5" blade
Not sure about dating it because of the placement of the L66, and letter E, but I am assuming 1991 forward.

[Shark Bait]

It's got character.I like it.

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by THE PILGRIM

The Navy likes to carry their blades up high and in front.
Probably a good idea for water landings-entanglements.
I have had sharp blades cut completely through shearhs, so I am concerned about that happening.
Sometimes AF folks seem to be going ‘Navy.’

The pic of Col. Olds shows much wiser knife placement.

Even as a Cub Scout, I was taught to wear my hunting knife well back on my hip, to avoid injury if a sheath was pierced in a fall.

Back then, I don't think I'd have bought a Western knife. More likely, a Remington, Marble's Ideal, or a PAL copy of Remington RH-36 pattern. Or, splurged on a Randall. One reason to buy a Randall would be the better sheath.

[Onomea]

T-Star, there are custom sheath makers out there.

I have several from a craftsman, Bob Schrap, with whose work I am well pleased, for knives which are important to me. Robust and attractive. A variety of designs.

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by Onomea

T-Star, there are custom sheath makers out there.

I have several from a craftsman, Bob Schrap, with whose work I am well pleased, for knives which are important to me. Robust and attractive. A variety of designs.

Thanks. But I was referring to the early 1950's or in WW II, when those photos were taken. I'm sure a few sheath makers existed, but few combat pilots knew any.

BTW, I think I wrote a profile on Bob Schrap for a knife magazine. He'll probably recall that, but don't post my name on the board if he gives it to you. He may be able to send a copy of that story, as you're a repeat customer. I no longer have copies of many profiles or time to search the ones I've kept. Keep in mind that several thousand articles were involved, over a span of about 30 years.

[bgrafsr]

Originally Posted by THE PILGRIM

The Navy likes to carry their blades up high and in front.
Probably a good idea for water landings-entanglements.
I have had sharp blades cut completely through shearhs, so I am concerned about that happening.
Sometimes AF folks seem to be going ‘Navy.’

That's Col. Robin Olds.

[k22fan]

Would Texas Star care to attempt to identify the air crew man's knife in THE PILGRIM's picture in reply #33? They look like WW II navy airmen. I do not see the lanyard hole that onomea's Western in the original post has. I can not see whether or not it has Western's dual tang. As far as I know the pommel could be Western, Case, Marbles, Ka-Bar or a lessor known brand. Due to the incredible expansion of their fleet the navy famously scrounged all reasonable substitutes for their Mark I deck knife.

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by k22fan

Would Texas Star care to attempt to identify the air crew man's knife in THE PILGRIM's picture in reply #33? They look like WW II navy airmen. I do not see the lanyard hole that onomea's Western in the original post has. I can not see whether or not it has Western's dual tang. As far as I know the pommel could be Western, Case, Marbles, Ka-Bar or a lessor known brand. Due to the incredible expansion of their fleet the navy famously scrounged all reasonable substitutes for their Mark I deck knife.

You described the situation well, and individual sailors and aviators also frequently bought their own.

I THINK the man on the left has a Western, but don't know the line well enough to know the model. The man on the right seems to have a different pommel, which I can't see well enough to be sure about.

Most Western pommels weren't drilled for a thong, so if one is, that may help ID the knife. I THINK all variants of their Shark Knife had drilled pommels, but am not an expert. Curved blades are not the Shark Knife.

Even when a make can be identified, as with Maj. Richard Bong's Randall, it's hard to know the knife in the sheath. Randall offered, for instance, "commando" shaped handles on both Models 1 and 2.

I haven't seen the Bong photo in awhile. If someone will post it, I'll make a guess, or maybe Gary Randall knows.

There's also a good photo of Errol Flynn wearing his Randall knife in the cockpit of his yacht. The sheath is just curved enough to make the knife ID hard.

The official Randall scrimshaw artist (Rick Bowles) is a member here and has access to those photos. Maybe he'll post them again?

In viewing British commandos' knives, look for the curved guard to see if it's a First Model, and the handle is silver. Third Models have ringed handles, not checkered.

[Old 44 Guy]

I had the same knife when I was a kids during WW2. Don't know where it went. But I do have a Cattasargus Marine knife that came from Guadacanal during that war. Sheath is long gone.

[THE PILGRIM]

In WWII, The US bought more variations of more different knives from more makers than any time before or since.
For example, I count 12 variations of the Marine Matchete.
As some folks still brought their own personal knives.
Back to the photo - Gyrene on the left appears to be toting a Western.
That’s based on sheath snap location.
In that era, Western mostly produced sheaths with low snaps,
Most other folks most of the time put the snap higher.
As I look through Cole Vol. 3, my eyes glaze over as I look at an array of different very similar knives.
A likely candidate is - Western made a small Shark knife, 4 7/8 blade, full hilt, aluminum butt,
No hole.