Choose between M2 carbine, Thompson M1, or M3 Greaser

[Chromedhearts]

I’m writing a piece of fiction, and my characters are in 1946 China. One has a
.357 the other a 1911a1. They have a choice between the other three. I’m thinking the Thompson. Also they’re not on foot.
Situation gives them the choice


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[LoboGunLeather]

The M2 Carbine did not exist in production form in 1946, so that is out of the running already. The M3 submachinegun was primarily issued to armored vehicle crews in Europe, with service in the Pacific Theater limited to non-existent. The Thompson M1 and M1A1 were in widespread use throughout both the European and Pacific Theaters. That seems to answer the OP's questions.

[JayFramer]

I have then use a Tommy gun. Iconic and appropriate for the time and setting.

[Joe Kent]

Well said Lobo, well said.

[Chromedhearts]

Originally Posted by k22fan

It is easy to imagine an M1 carbine or any one of three .45s winding up in China but how an M2 carbine or S&W's most expensive revolver wound up in your character's hands would require explaining. Since you want a flashy full auto how about an 1896 Mauser Broom Handle with a shoulder stock? Early in the century they were popular among the few Chinese who could afford them.

The S&W is explained in the story line; the characters are U.S. Servicemen, and in they’re particular situation, they have the choice, not just from what was common, but what they want.


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[DWalt]

The M3 would probably have been more frequently encountered in China at that time, but maybe also some Thompsons. And the C96 and its variants (including full auto Schnellfeuers and some which were made in China) were very popular among the Chinese warlords which were still active in 1946. M2 Carbines would be anachronisms.

[LoboGunLeather]

We can only hope that the OP's character does not have a semi-automatic .357 magnum, back in 1946. Contrary to popular belief, usually facilitated by authors proceeding with a story without significant research, the Smith & Wesson .357 Registered Magnum was the only commonly available piece at the time in question (1946), and they were very scarce items to be had. Colt may have been in production with the New Service .357 revolvers by then, but doubtful due to wartime commitments for production of dozens of other armaments (Thompson SMG's, M1911A-1's, M1918 .30 BMG, M2 Browning .50, M1918 BAR rifles, and others by the tons every day of the week for the preceding 8 or 9 years).

Far more likely armament might include Colt Official Police revolvers (.38 Special), S&W Hand Ejector revolvers (including the .38-44 and .357 magnum versions, Victory Models, and Military & Police variants). The .357 magnum cartridge was announce in 1935, about 3 or 4 years prior to the onset of the war in Europe, and S&W production was focused heavily on Lend-Lease contract arms. When the US actually entered WW2 (December 7, 1941) just about all domestic production (firearms and everything else) became entirely focused on filling war needs. Civilian orders and production received little or no attention. So, from about 1939 (or a bit earlier) until 1946 (or a bit later) it would have been very difficult for anyone to fill an order for a specific firearm from any US source.

Starting about 1938-1939 the British government, in anticipation of a German invasion, was begging for firearms to equip Home Guard units. The National Rifle Association printed full-page ads in the "American Rifleman" for several years encouraging members to send rifles, shotguns, and pistols to Great Britain to assist. Many thousands of guns were thus transferred, most of which were returned after 1945, although quite a few found new homes in attics and closets, and many were taken by the British government to be dumped into the North Sea.

Those who wish to compose stories about historical events should research their work before setting pen to paper. The facts are readily available.

Best regards.

[Chromedhearts]

Also, since the M-2 had been first fielded, albeit in Europe, in late ‘44, I think if the highest level Brass is involved, it might be on the table some six months after the war ended; maybe not though. This isn’t a collector or cool factor decision. I’m wondering if anyone that thought that they might get shot at would actually choose one over the other. I’m thinking most would still choose the Thompson though


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[DWalt]

A .357 S&W would be rare as pointed out. A .38/44 (especially an Outdoorsman which closely resembles a RM) is much the same and would have been more common at that time.

[Chromedhearts]

Originally Posted by DWalt

A .357 S&W would be rare as pointed out. A .38/44 (especially an Outdoorsman which closely resembles a RM) is much the same and would have been more common at that time.

The .357 is part of the story.


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[Filo McShoe]

M3 better rate of fire (slower), simple, rugged.
fits with the story line to some degree:
Type 36 & 37 (China)

The Type 36 is a direct clone of the M3A1, manufactured in 1947 at the Shenyang Arsenal in Mukden.[39] It resembles a M3A1, except that it has no flats to allow the use of a wrench for easy removal and it has no oil bottle trap in the pistol grip.[39] Its parts are not interchangeable with the M3A1.[39]

10,000 Type 36s were made before they were obtained by pro-Communist forces in 1949.[39]

The Type 37 is a direct clone of the 9mm-chambered M3, made at the 60th Jinling Arsenal near Nanking.[39] Production continued in Taiwan as the Type 39, a successor to the Type 37.[39]

[THE PILGRIM]

My Buddy Milt had a Smith 357 in Korea,
But that was later.
His Mother sent it to him from Houston.
I like the Type 36/37.

[LoboGunLeather]

One more addition:

I read, a lot. Two to four books per week for the past 50-plus years. Popular authors, new authors, successful authors, flash-in-the-pan authors. I read them all.

When it comes to firearms a few common themes emerge:

1. Confusion between the terms "pistol" and "revolver"
2. References to common revolvers with "safeties"
3. References to common semi-auto firearms as "machineguns"
4. Plot characters "cocking the hammer" on a Glock pistol
5. Plot characters using the "safety" on a Glock pistol

I could go on for days, but I think the point has been made. If someone is intending to tell a story in a believable manner there must be a higher level of knowledge to engage the reader and make the story-line a bit more accurate than most authors actually achieve.

Best regards.

[k22fan]

Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather

[...] Colt may have been in production with the New Service .357 revolvers by then [...]

Machinery specific to the New Service was moved out of Colt's factory to make room for war production. Unfortunately it was left outside where rusting made it unsalvageable. New Services were never made again so what ever quantity were made in .357 were made in time for the book's character to have one.

My guess was that lend lease sent inexpensive Grease Guns to China rather than expensive Thompsons but I've mostly read naval history.

Edited to add an apostrophe but also I'm amused that the reply I quickly decided was not worth leaving in the thread was captured in a quote and earned a like.

[Chromedhearts]

Honestly guys, I wish I hadn’t mentioned the .357. I did think it might pique some interest. Believe me I know the history on that round and pistol that was chambered for it.
It’s in the story.
I really wanted opinions on the long guns; if an experienced combat veteran, would choose one over the other.
I knew the S&W would interest you all, but that’s part of the story


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[Chromedhearts]

If I can ever get it in print; I’ll Karma the first copy on here but I’m sure y’all know how unlikely that is for an unpublished inexperienced writer


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[Chromedhearts]

My character with the S&W is a combat hardened fellow, just posted after a nice few months back home after the War. He acquired it while in the States. He is in the 6th MarDiv at Yokosuka and ends up working directly for MacArthur.
Nuff said or I’ll be giving it all away


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[old bear]

Originally Posted by Chromedhearts

Honestly guys, I wish I hadn’t mentioned the .357. I did think it might pique some interest. Believe me I know the history on that round and pistol that was chambered for it.
It’s in the story.
I really wanted opinions on the long guns; if an experienced combat veteran, would choose one over the other.
I knew the S&W would interest you all, but that’s part of the story


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Chromedhearts, make it easy on yourself and go with the Thompson, just about everyone knows what they are.

Unless you want a detailed lesson in how to build a watch, never ask this group what time is it.

[2152hq]

The Chinese T36 is in 45acp. You'd have to move the story ahead one year for the characters to get a hold of one.
A M3A1 copy with a few small outward changes,,most everything inside is different to spec with the original.

The T37 is a 9mmLuger version and a strict copy of the earlier M3 version.
The T37 didn't come into production till '48/49. So that'd move the timeline ahead even more.

There's Chinese copys of TSMg too, I guess you could consider those, or both as long as that's where they're stuck.

A 357 is OK,,but how much ammunition is the character carrying or have access to.
Maybe left over Pilot 38sp for general spray and pray work and save that box of high-test for special moments to remember.

[rockquarry]

I can't see how anyone constantly on the lookout for hair-splitting firearms correctness could ever enjoy a book or movie. There are lots of mistakes, but they're easy to overlook if the story is a good one. Few who read your work will care about obscure gun trivialities, but it hurts nothing to be reasonably correct.

Concentrate on your novel, short story, or whatever it may be. Get it right, then work on the guns. Good luck-

[jtcarm]

As my college film professor said, in real life, anything can happen. In a story, it has to be believable.

[jag312]

An alternate to the Thompson M1 or M1A1 could be a Thompson 1928. The British Army had them before the STEN, and some of the 1928s did circulate around Asia, I know someone who managed to scrounge a 1928 with a 50-round drum magazine while in Vietnam. He was a Lieutenant Colonel at that time. He still treasures some photographs of him holding it. He also wishes he could have smuggled it back to the US.

[Chromedhearts]

Originally Posted by jag312

An alternate to the Thompsom M1 or M1A1 could be a Thompson 1928. The British rmy had them before the STEN, and some of the 1928s did circulate around Asia, I know someone who managed to scrounge a 1928 with a 50-round drum magazine while in Vietnam. He was a Lieutenant Colonel at that time. He still treasures some photographs of him holding it. He also wishes he could have smuggled it back to the US.

I wonder if there were any in U.S. arms rooms, maybe aboard ships


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[DWalt]

Some years ago a female author (she had some established reputation, not a novice) contacted me for some advice regarding guns for a novel she was writing which was to be set in the English Regency period. She sort of outlined what the story line was and the context in which the guns would be used. She obviously did not know the difference between a pea shooter and a popgun. Anyway, I provided her a several page writeup on guns of various types which would be correct for that period along with some technical details I felt would be helpful. And then I never heard a word from her, not even a thank you. I didn't attempt to locate the book to see if she had used any of the information I sent her.

[max]

I believe there were M-2 carbines in the Pacific late in the war. If I were choosing from your list and the M-2 were not available, I would have no problem with the M-1 Carbine, unless you wanted full auto capability. It is lighter than the Thompson and more accurate than the Thompson or grease gun.

[JayCeeNC]

Your time frame would be during the Chinese Civil War between the Communist Chinese and the Chinese Nationalist Party.
The US supplied Thompson SMGs to the Chiang Kai-shek led Chinese Nationalist Party/Koumintang during WWII, and the Communist Chinese captured many of them when they won the post-WWII civil war in China.
(Thompsons were used extensively by Chinese Communists against US forces during the Korean war.)
Thompsons would have probably been easy to find.

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by Chromedhearts

The S&W is explained in the story line; the characters are U.S. Servicemen, and in they’re particular situation, they have the choice, not just from what was common, but what they want.


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If you want to be a published writer, learn the differences between their, there, and they're!

Where are you publishing this? FanFiction.net/ Fiction Press?

Post the URL and I may read it.You could use an M-1 carbine, or a Garand. I'd choose a M-1928A-1 Thompson and a Garand.

It's best to know your guns. If you ask readers, you'll get all sorts of suggestions. Geoffrey Boothroyd told me he got suggestions to arm James Bond with all sorts of guns, inc. cap and ball Remington .44's! Needless to say, he didn't bother his friend Ian Fleming with many of those suggestions!

I have been in your shoes while writing fan fic for, The Lost World. I added guns to those seen on TV, being very careful to select types likely to have been used in the 1919-1922 time frame and the years after I had the adventurers leave the Plateau.

I especially wanted to arm Finn better than with her puny crossbow. She got a .38 M&P S&W with five-inch barrel and a .44 Winchester M-92 carbine and a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer. It has a Hensoldt scope sight. By the time she was married to Prof. Challenger (Jessie C. died in my stories), and on safari, she had a .275 Rigby, a .303 sporter, and a Jeffery .450/.400 and a .375 H&H Magnum. Being from the future, she also had copies made of Randall knives. And has a Swiss Army knife (Camper) and later bought 1920's versions.

You have to gauge reader interest. Most fan fiction readers are women and don't care about gun detail. I just called her .38 a Smith & Wesson M&P with five-inch barrel.Saying it was a 4th gen., Model 1905 with the 1922 USA frame marking and a heat-treated cylinder would be excessive for the reader market. She did acquire one with the gold medallion grips, probably from a barrel of the older stocks found at the factory when her gun was made.

Arming and otherwise equipping fictional characters is fun, but you have to be good at it and make the stuff fit the time and the characters.

Oh: I think your man's .357 should have a four or five-inch barrel, prob. the latter, and a Myers Threepersons holster with a retention strap. The holster belt loop would prob. have to be made wide enough for a USGI web pistol belt. ?? Only one model of S&W .357 was made then, so no problems with model numbers or names. Choose between factory Magna stocks and those by Walter Roper.

[Bat Guano]

I have used the M1/M2 carbines, M1 Thompson somewhat, and a grease gun once. I suspect that an M1 Thompson would be more common than the others in Asia at that time. Also I think the Thompson would have quite a bit more status/intimidation factor which could help in some circles.

For some reason I always liked the scene in "Uncommon Valor" where the protagonists buy their scruffy weapons from the bargain bin of a weapons dealer. Nice "real life" touch.

[jimmyj]

Thompson SMG, M3, and M2 Carbine I was issued individual over a period of time. The Thompson was too heavy, the M2 Carbine was too light, but I liked the M3 SMG. The one I was issued had a crank/lever for cocking the bolt which I felt was somewhat fragile.
In the OP's time period and country I would have chosen a British Stein Gun and a M1911A1 Colt or Browning M1935.

[ACP230]

I vote Thompson.
Lots of them fielded in WWII in the Pacific.
Lots around afterward as well.

[Grayfox]

I've handled and fired all three of these weapons.
The Thompson is heavy. The M3 is hard to hold on target. If your characters are combat veterans, I'd see them choosing the M1 Carbine because its short, light and can deliver fast accurate fire at greater distances.

[Muley Gil]

Go with the 1928 Thompson. As stated, they were available in the Pacific Theater and if they weren't being carried afoot, I believe Tommy guns would have been favored over carbines.

[Autonomous]

M2, just because.

[Weimar]

1911a1 and Thompson use same ammo

[chief38]

The Thompson would be my personal Dream Gun as far as Sub Machine Guns go. Although I'll more than likely never own one (illegal in my State) I have shot one and it took me hours to wipe off the grin!!

If and when I do move to a more gun friendly State it will be on my Bucket list!

[Richard Simmons]

Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather

One more addition:

I read, a lot. Two to four books per week for the past 50-plus years. Popular authors, new authors, successful authors, flash-in-the-pan authors. I read them all.

When it comes to firearms a few common themes emerge:

1. Confusion between the terms "pistol" and "revolver"
2. References to common revolvers with "safeties"
3. References to common semi-auto firearms as "machineguns"
4. Plot characters "cocking the hammer" on a Glock pistol
5. Plot characters using the "safety" on a Glock pistol

I could go on for days, but I think the point has been made. If someone is intending to tell a story in a believable manner there must be a higher level of knowledge to engage the reader and make the story-line a bit more accurate than most authors actually achieve.

Best regards.

You make an excellent point. Was listening to old radio shows the other day and one from the late 40's was playing and the character mentioned his Luger revolver. Not only once but twice. I presume the writers needed/wanted a brand name if you will and being just after the end of the war, Luger came to mind.

I doubt many listeners over the decades caught it but I know a few of us did.

To the OP, it's your story go with what you like. It's fiction after all. That being said I believe the Thompson name regardless of model will conjure an instant mental image for the reader and that's a good thing in my book.

[Texas Star]

YouTube

I really think you should watch this video and listen carefully to what Don Burgett said. He used the Thompson and the Garand and his views make sense to me.

I recommend his books about his wartime role in the paratroopers. He dropped into Normandy on D-Day.

Look for his titles like, "Currahee!" and, "The Road Past Arnhem."
Full name is Donald R. Burgett.

BTW, he carried a nickel Colt .45 auto and a P-38 as well as a rifle or SMG.

His books are among the best personal accounts of WW II.

[Chromedhearts]

Thanks for all your comments.
As stated originally; the choices were the M-1 Thompson, the M-2 carbine and the M-3. That’s the only ones in the arms room beside the heavies, and several characters have them Garands , a BAR, and a 1919a1, but that’s the rest of the story...


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[Bakebfr480]

A "Published" author?

[Chromedhearts]

I hope to be

[italiansport]

Originally Posted by JayCeeNC

Your time frame would be during the Chinese Civil War between the Communist Chinese and the Chinese Nationalist Party.
The US supplied Thompson SMGs to the Chiang Kai-shek led Chinese Nationalist Party/Koumintang during WWII, and the Communist Chinese captured many of them when they won the post-WWII civil war in China.
(Thompsons were used extensively by Chinese Communists against US forces during the Korean war.)
Thompsons would have probably been easy to find.

My guess was that lend lease sent inexpensive Grease Guns to China rather than expensive Thompsons but I've mostly read naval history.

Your guess is incorrect as we supplied Chiang Kia Chek with Thompson's. Many of these we abandoned to the communists when Chiang and his forces fled to Taiwan. Thompson's were highly prized by the Chinese and they even made some themselves. I have been told that they are still in use today by some of the warlords who rule the remote areas of China! And yes: Some were sent by the Chinese to the Koreans and the VC and we ended up fighting against our own weapons!
Jim

[Drm50]

Another Thompson vote. M3 are junk and close range weapon.
M2 carbines are alright but never had the appeal of Thompson.
I think Thompson would fit the time line better. The only auto
weapon I have any interest at all is 1928 or earlier Tommy.

[Pig Hunter]

I remember at least 2 stories in the American Rifleman about Marines in the Pacific carrying and using RM's during WWII. If they have transport at least part of the time, the power and reliability of a Thompson variation would be a viable choice.

[bulletslap]

My Great Uncle served in the South Pacific and I recall him mentioning M2 Carbines being available very late in the War. And I also recall him saying that there were unauthorized full auto modifications to M1 Carbines, as well as authorized issue conversion kits.

He was a proponent of the BAR, for what it is worth.

[diyj98]

Originally Posted by Chromedhearts

Also they’re not on foot.

For that reason I'll say the Thompson. It's a heavy beast and I'd much rather carry an M2, but if walking long distance isn't a an issue, I'd go with the Thompson.

[samnev]

I'd go with the Thomson SMG.

[nachogrande]

I'd be thinking along the lines of older, less expensive Japanese, Russian, French, etc. ??? IF OTOH the characters are American??? Feel free to take some liberties from THE WILD BUNCH. IF AMERICAN 1 character MUST BE a Sam Elliot look alike rough rider, with a single action colt revolver & a Winchester model 12 shotgun.

[OFT II]

The carbine would be the most practical in my opinion but the M1 Thompson would have the most dramatic effect.