A few times over the past 3 years, mostly with older guys new to collecting, going bonkers for Korth and Manurhin.

Looking at them, say in .357 Magnum caliber ... I don't get it. I am so thrilled with a RM or a nice pre 27s, why mess with either of the ugly ducklings when a Model 27 is top of the heap ? (well, to me, anyway).

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Where else are you going to go for a revolver covered in picatinny rails?



I don't see why they command such high prices myself. The only thing I can think of is the exclusivity factor. Kind of like people buying Ferraris and Lamborghinis when the Corvette ZR1 is just as fast.

I agree. I'll stick with my Smiths.

My long barrel S&W 500 Mag has enough of them to get the job done (and break your arm if you hold it wrong). But seriously, the prices are staggering and they "ain't all that and a bag of chips".

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Why pick only one?

29C863E9-8261-4421-A71A-1146DA0DF446.jpg

Love my Smiths. I have 2 more .357s not pictured, and just got a semi pro series. But there is a difference in build, and price, between the Smith and Korth. The gap is lessened if you compare the 27-2 or the Python. Typical German over engineering.
Korth cylinder2.jpg
The Mongoose was on my bucket list, next up I hope, a 29-2 6 1/2. Plus, I got my Korth from a 1911 guy, who after he put a few rounds through it decided he was still a 1911 guy. Got a HUGE discount, cuz he wanted to buy another high end 1911. Well below market, it was a deal I couldn’t refuse. Don’t know if they’re exclusive, there’s 19 on GB right now. Finding one that’s affordable, that’s the hard part. BTW the Python cost me more.

With Korth, it is definitely the exclusive, custom-made factor. It belongs in the same category as Swiss watches.

With the Manurhin, the objective factor which led the French to abandon S&W and have Manurhin develop their own revolver for the police and especially the anti-terrorist GIGN was durability.

When the (somewhat legendary) French police trainer, and President de Gaulle’s bodyguard and confidante, Raymond Sasia, trained with the FBI in the 1960s and brought modern combat techniques to France, he insisted on all practice with full-power .357 loads. At first they imported S&W K-frames (I don’t think RM’s were considered ). S&W actually produced a special French contract 3” Model 19. But these simply came apart too soon with a steady magnum diet.

The outcome was the development of the MR73. I’ve never owned one, but apparently you can shoot it with full power magnum loads until your hands fall off without ill effects on the gun. The GIGN still used these revolvers decades after the rest of the world switched to semi-autos.

Of course, if you DON’T shoot magnums all day, you’re just buying a high quality revolver that’s not American for a change. That’s entirely your pleasure

People buy what they like, it's all about what you can comfortably afford. I'm sure there's guys carrying Charter Arms and Taurus revolvers that think the gun they carry is just as good as any S&W. I don't own a Korth, but some of there old revolvers look fantastic.

I feel the same way about Pythons and King Cobras. Never owned Python , but I did buy a brand new king Cobra in bright polished stainless.No way that gun is worth the money it gets today. Handeled a six inch Python with a scope last week , again I don't get the asking price . A pre model 29 is a much better gun for the same money.

The crazy thing about Charter, Taurus or Cobra is that they don't cost much less and sometimes just as much as a S&W 642 or 442. They offer some revolvers in 9mm and .40S&W that S&W doesn't and that would be my only reason to look at them.

Then one can be really different Chiappa.. (SP)

I'm not sure whether your local gun shops have terrible pricing or you're simply one of those folks who considers a couple hundred dollars difference in price negligible, but in my experience, Charter/Taurus are considerably cheaper than Smith & Wesson when it comes to Revolvers.
At the very least, Taurus Revolvers on average cost $100 less than a Smith & Wesson Revolver, and at most a S&W costs roughly DOUBLE the price of a Taurus.

No need. Just hold your J frame upside down and fire it with your pinky. Just like Jerry Miculek. Good to 200 yards.

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Certified Curmudgeon

You can get a 442 or 642 on GB for $320. Where can I get a Taurus 85 Ultralite or Charter Undercover for $160?

Edited to add: My LGS do have terrible pricing with 642/442s running around $500

Rural King had the Taurus 85 for $169 not too long ago.

Because it's the "look-at-how-much-I-spent-on-a-firearm-I'll-never-shoot" BBQ-gun bragging.

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Thread Killer.

I have fun at the range with a 102 year old S&W, only a 22LR. I shoot at 25 yards most shoot at 10 yards. 1916 22/32 HFT. It's my BBQ bragging pistol.

My MR73 is as smooth as pre model number S&W, with better materials. Not as attractive as a S&W but smooth and extremely durable and accurate.

The MR 73 is a beautiful and extremely well built revolver. The blueing is amazing, like liquid metal.



I already have several S&W and Colts. It’s about diversity. Now Korth, that’s a bit rich for my taste.

Manurhin MR 73

I've owned a pair pf Manurhin MR73's over the years. Beautiful revolvers, but IMHO, an early Python or S&W 19, are every bit the quality, and fit and finish revolver. However, folks that love them ( and the Korth) are certainly buying the worlds best; just that the S&W, Colt ( and even the early Dan Wessons) also qualify for that category. Just personal taste and like automobiles, etc.

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John

That's a steal. In my area used Taurus revolver are selling for $275 and up.

It's a shame they never figured out a way to eliminate the four brown spots that spoil such a nice blueing.

Found here. I think it’s actually a trademark of those revolvers.

manurhin mr73 - larvatus prodeo


The top sideplate screw featured on early revolvers is deleted on subsequent variants, with sideplate retention ensured by the profile of its corner shaped as a wedge fitting in the frame. The four pins staked into the MR73 frame to serve as trigger and hammer axes, and retain the bolt stop and its spring, differ from it in heat treatment, resulting in the appearance of purple circles on its left hand side as a result of differential response to bluing salts.

Always liked this pic of a scoped and bipodded 8 inch.

Both the French and German revolvers are beautiful handguns. My main observation, beside excessive cost for what you get, is that they don't seem to have been designed by anyone familiar with the practical use of the handgun.

I realize there are variations offered with these firearms, but find the accessories somewhat fragile looking as well as kind of pointless.

When I was with the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Unit, a French officer came to the Outdoor Range (Rodman's Neck, Bronx NY). He found fault with every single thing the NYPD did in regard firearms. Guy was a jerk.

I suspect some of the changes made to the French handguns used by their personnel is, frankly, just to make them more French.

Rich

I was fortunate to fire a Manurhan MR73 when visiting in Switzerland a few years ago that belonged to our fellow member Swissman. You can feel the difference in the quality the moment you pick one up. Every piece is hand fitted and loving care is evident. I don't think I have ever shot as tight of groups (although high & left) as I did with the Manurhan, the accuracy is fantastic and it is built like a tank but doesn't look like one. If one was offered in my price range I would buy in a minute.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Looks like I was about 7 days late, lol, but ran across this thread looking for an old Mr73. I own 2 Smith's (66-2 4" and a TRR8), and a member here, obviously.

While I love my Smith's, an MR73 is certainly built differently, more robust, barrel wise. I dont doubt my Smith's one bit, but honestly would like an MR73 for long time use. Maybe it's more expensive, maybe not worth the money to some, but it was built to be a work horse, and acts like one, even compared to the fantastic Smith's. It's like other gun platforms I have, if somebody was to open my safe and ask. "What rifle will last to hand to your kid....", I'd guess, "wont be my SIG MCX. Not my AR, probably my M1A...." Old technology, not as cool as my other guns, but they have been proven to last. I'd say the same with the MR73. Plus I like types of guns with stories behind there pedigree.

Just my opinion from what I've read, and reports from different sources. One day I'll get an MR73. A Korth? Besides me being of German background, see no reason unless you get a good deal. Bought a Mercedes like this once, old convertible SL350. Cost $500, ran, fixed interior carpet, etc. Joy ride for about a 3 months and sold before anything expensive broke, lol. I may be German with pride, but a Capitalist first and foremost..... feel th same with things like a new Korth.

Oh, I should add as well, with a Korth vs my TRR8..... The Korth BETTER be accurate. I will say that my TRR8 is without a doubt the most accurate handgun I have ever shot. And the mostuseful, I hunt at night sometimes, so the underrail has an IR Light/IR laser combo when i have my PVS. And wears a Red Dot with White light under rail when it has bedside duty. All those side rails on the Korth (good luck with a holster, and it coming out of the holster without snagging)..... and from what I've seen no under rail. Um, what the.... lol, I'll stick to my TRR8 all day vs a Korth for real world duty. Again, just my 2 cents.

The only things that you are right with in my case is that I am qualifying as an older guy. I shoot guns since well over 40 years and participated successfully in competitions. Over the last two decades I could build up a collection of classic firearms, with my main focus on Korth Ratzeburg revolvers. My 27-2 and my Python ( which I had to save up for in 1984) do not compare to my worst of my 17 Korth revolvers made in Ratzeburg.

I am used to derogatory comments of keyboard jockeys on the internet that relegate Korth owners to non-shooting collectors but I have too many trophies to be bothered by that - and I shoot all my Korths and most my other guns, including several Swiss P210s and two Hämmerlis. I am probably also a lousy shotgunner and mostly a collector for owning an engraved Merkel SxS.

Good but not outstanding:


A direct comparison



Two .357 Korth Combats

Why then did the GIGN issue S&W M19-3s like this ( I mounted Nills in this photo)? A gun procured by Raymond Sassia and later Manurhin built the first police revolvers based on the Ruger, the Manurhin Special Police F1. They developped the MR73 to fit their needs, these guns last very long and are outstanding quality. I have shot several Manurhins that shooting buddies owned and find them to be excellent.

Guys, when we talk about Korth, we are referring to THESE guns, not the ugly railed things.
Manurhin MR73 , btw, is one of the best sixguns ever manufactured, no doubts, as I wrote elsewhwere in this forum...

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And for that I envy you a lot!

I have shot many different handguns. I had bought a lot of guns for the first hand experience and later sold them if they did not meet my expectations but I am still left with a lot of guns. I have shot everything from Roehm, Raven, Bryco, EAA, all the way to custom 1911s, the Korth and Swiss SIGs.

[QUOTE=Andyd;140051431]The only things that you are right with in my case is that I am qualifying as an older guy. I shoot guns since well over 40 years and participated successfully in competitions. Over the last two decades I could build up a collection of classic firearms, with my main focus on Korth Ratzeburg revolvers. My 27-2 and my Python ( which I had to save up for in 1984) do not compare to my worst of my 17 Korth revolvers made in Ratzeburg.

I am used to derogatory comments of keyboard jockeys on the internet that relegate Korth owners to non-shooting collectors but I have too many trophies to be bothered by that - and I shoot all my Korths and most my other guns, including several Swiss P210s and two Hämmerlis. I am probably also a lousy shotgunner and mostly a collector for owning an engraved Merkel SxS

Andy, you could have left " keyboard jockeys " out of your post and no one could have taken umbridge from your post. Just saying.

20 years ago a Korth was a $3K item, a Model 27 maybe $400. Today a Korth is a $3K item and some 27's $3K. Lotsa choices. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

20 years ago? I have a German book from 1974, in which the author notes each Korth revolver should be hand-autographed by the creator and delivered by a butler ....

They go on to observe that in terms of quality, 43 work hours per gun produce a gun which is a collector’s item before it leaves the shop.

That may have changed a bit in 44 years, but in contrast to the Manurhin, which was purpose-built as a service weapon and has a decades-long documented service record, the number of people who can discuss the Korth intelligently based on sufficient experience like Andyd is by definition quite small.

So is likely the number of shooters who shoot well enough to be able to take advantage of the difference between a fine S&W and a Korth

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I am very grateful to Andyd and Diecidecimi for replying to this thread.
The topic of Korths, Manurhin MR73s, and for that matter, older Neuhausen built SIG P210s has come up before.
It would be a good thing if folks did a quick search of the forum threads (it's not hard to do!) before blasting off on something of which they have no firsthand experience.

Sure, classic S&Ws and Colts are awesome. And, the designers of the Manurhin and Korth (the real Willi Korth guns) were very well versed in those designs. But, they chose to raise the bar in one way or another. When you're starting so close to perfection, the truth is, even small, incremental improvements are quite costly.

Are they worth it to you? I don't know, but it was worth it to the folks at Korth and Manurhin to bring their ideas to fruition.

Just consider one more thing. If you live in a tightly gun controlled country halfway around the world, can only have one handgun, and have no practical way to send a defective product back to Springfield, Mass, maybe, just maybe it makes sense to invest in a piece with a proven track record of 100,000 rounds (or more) of full power loads with zero breakdowns.

Jim

When Willi Korth started to manufacture firearms, he faced the stiff established competition of Colt and S&W. As a newcomer he decided to produce a revolver that was better built and finished than the guns of the competitiors and the depressed wages of post-WWII Germany and the abundance of skilled workers gave him the opportunity to develop his guns.
In order to compete with the established competition he priced his guns very reasonably and below the competition.

He wasn't a businessman and went through bankruptcy and financial problems but developed the roller bearing on top of the trigger to give a smooth and adjustable double action characteristic that is unequaled. He also pressed a roller through the chambers and compressed them to a glass smooth finish, which helps tremendously with extraction. This was also picked up by Manurhin and incorporated in their MR 73 revolvers. As the Korth revolver evolved to its final stage and the gun got more attention and followers, the prices slowly increased. However, Willi Korht never made money on the guns and got a distributor which raised the prices and introduced the guns to the U.S. market. Prices were rising steadily for new guns but used guns were abundant and inexpensive in Germany until a few years ago when several American importers starting to buy the guns up after Michael Zeleny and I had made the public aware of the quality of the guns.

I enjoy my little Korth collection, as well as my S&W pre-lock revolvers, and my Swiss SIG P210-6.

There are guns that are better than others but a little bit of high end costs a lot of money and most people will not be able to enjoy it.

It is all in what you like, I am OK with the quality and prices of "mainstream brands" like S&W, Remington, Ruger, Springfield etc.

After repairing and restoring European Imports (mostly German Imports) for the majority of my Lifetime, I can attest to German quality in craftsmanship but I cannot attest likewise for the French. (Referring to automobiles)

I have a collector friend that raves about both the Korth and Manurhin, inviting me to the range to try try these out. Now, I'm going to have to go see, and compare, without any preconceived prejudice.

__________________
ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

French cars cannot be compared to French guns, the Pistolet automatique modèle 1935A was the design used for the P210. Manurhin made the Walther P38/P1, PP and PPK pistols to German standards, while the sports pistols, like the Walther Olympia evolved into the Hämmerli 200 series. Nowadays Manurhin stopped manufacturing firearms and Chapuis Arms took over production. I remember that they initially had some issues but think that those problems are overcome. Michael Zeleny, who posts a blog called larvatus prodeo has compiled excellent information on the Korth, MR73, and P210.

With an unbiased mind, you will enjoy the experience of shooting two of the greatest double action revolvers money can buy.

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Wow. Seeing all the Manhurins, Korth's...along with the back and forth regarding their pros cons and absurdly high prices...has given me a renewed and enhanced appreciation of my trusty 586. When it comes to aesthetics alone, the Smith certainly has an edge over the "hunchback" Manhurin and the boxy looking Korth frames.

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Smith. And Wesson. And Me!

After the unfortunate events in Nice a while back, I was able to do a little hand shaking and assistance with the GIGN folks in Villefranche-sur-Mer prepping for their hit on one of the associated bad guys.
Their entry team was armed with pistol caliber carbines and pistols only, which surprised me. Additionally, only two rounds were fired by the good guys, resulting in one bad guy, room temperature. The only man to fire used his MR73 5". He had a super cool mustache (many of them did) and we had a moment to chat afterward. Fine, professional gents those folks are. Straight shooters too.

Acknowledging there is little comparison along the quality lines of fit, finish, and internals; how would a Ruger GP100 compare to a vintage Korth or Manhurin for toughness and the ability to handle steady diets of full-powered magnum fodder? Great thread and I don't mean to hijack it - just curious.

I have only one GP100 and it is a special fixed sighted model chambered in .38 Special. I have shot that gun a lot because I got it for $250 and it is a sturdy revolver. I am a reloader and have shot it with .38 Special +P+P+ loads but mostly with standard pressure 158 gr .38 Special reloads. All my pre-lock S&W revovlers and the GP100 have been worked over - and not just by changing a few springs; trigger weight does not depend on spring weight alone but also on drag.

When I compare the Ruger GP100 with one of my favorite S&W blasters, a S&W M-65, the M-65 displays a smoother double action pull. When I also shoot the GP100 very fast, using speedloaders and MTM speedloader boxes of 60 rounds, the gun fails to shoot in single action. I could never figure out why the single action sear failed but when the gun is cooled off, it works again.

I had an old Ruger Service Six that I reblued and have given to one of my sons and that SS had a slightly better action than the GP100.

The Korth and MR73 have a few features that Rugers and S&W revolvers don't have; they make trigger adjustment possibe from the outside, without removal of the side plate. Longevity of Korths and MR73 is legendary, lifes of 100,000 have been reported but it is also legendary simply because I am not aware of anybody having shot one out. Anyway, even for a reloader the cost of .357 Magnum ammo will be multiples of what a Korth costs before one can expect any issue with them.

I have a S&W 22A that has 110,000 rounds through it that needed severral repairs. I started shooting the gun when a 550 round brick was $7.97. Go figure out what you would spend for that ammo alone and the cost of a firearm is negligible.

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Well,I've never even came close to a Korth so I can't comment about it.But I've tried a Manhurin(not the MR73 but the equivalent of my S&W model 14 in .38Spl).
I came out very very impressed.I'm not competing on a serious basis anymore but if I'd still be,I'd seriously consider replacing my Mod 14 for it.Price would be a deciding factor for a few hundred $s extra from what I'd get for the 14 probably would do it.But I wouldn't go to 1K extra;I believe that the tool is secondary to the user.Like they say''it's not the gun that makes the difference,it's the gunner''.
But again,the Manhurin is very well built.I own a Python but for competing,I like my 14 way better.That must mean a lot about my appreciation of the Manhurin.

The RM is great. The later M27 or pre 27 is not even close to that level of refinement.

Hey guys, with all due respect, how many of you naysayers have even handled a vintage Korth Combat? I'm not talking about the new models either.

While the Registered Magnum is a gem, there is no way a 27-2 or even a Pre 27 is in the same ballpark as a Korth Combat or Manurhin MR73 from a fit and finish or quality standpoint, not even to mention durability.

If you can honestly hold a 27-2 in one hand and a 1970's Manurhin or Korth in the other hand and say they are equals, more power to you. I'd have to think you either suffered from a serious case of bias or just don't know revolvers. I will say that I'm finding this thread quite entertaining.

Here's a 1935 RM from my collection flanked on the left by two vintage Korth Combats and on the right by two vintage Manurhin MR73s. There's a couple vintage Colt Pythons thrown in for good measure.








Here is a better pic of the Korths and Manurhins, separated by a couple Freedom Arms...

I have no experience with Korth, but my police trade in MR73 is an excellent revolver. I liked it so much that I ordered a Chapuis MR73 with a 5 1/4" barrel that I am currently waiting on. In my opinion it ranks up there among the very best revolvers ever made, though I do enjoy shooting pre-war .44 specials more.

Guess I’ll jump in, had an early Korth .22. Pulled the extractor rod to open the cylinder and did not have the roller bearing trigger. Still a nice gun with a great trigger. Couldn’t shoot it one handed as good as off the bench just like the S&W’s I have. I sold it in Tulsa, way more accurate then me.

Found a 4” MR73 on Allens Armory with adjustable sights with a lot of bluing wear. Lucky to find one of the adjustable sight guns cheap. Had it reblued to look like it did when it was new. Still have it, nice gun.

I still like my S&W’s but respect the quality of the Korth & Manurhin. I can see why people buy them. I shoot double action most of the time and do the best I can at 50 ft. Actually down sizing the collection and the S&W’s do all I need a gun to do.

For the last 1 1/2 yrs been enjoying a Hammerli free pistol made in 1953. Larry.

I lived in France for a while and have worked with several. "Jerk" seems to be a national characteristic. I will probably get black listed for this comment but I think it is the truth.

I lived in Paris in the Cité International Universitaire back in 1983 and have made the same experience. They seem to be especially hostile to Americans but treat all foreigners with contempt. I came to the conclusion that it is a national inferiority complex .