I recently picked up this 98% plus Marlin 1887 Double Action Revolver in .32 cal, (for $159, so there still ARE bargains out there!!!) and, in my research, I noted that it was mentioned somewhere that the frames were forged at/by Smith & Wesson. I thought I read it in Flayderman's, but I don't see it there, so it must have been on the internet somewhere (the internet never lies, right?) Because I cannot find that source, I am unsure if this was a hypothesis or a statement. But the similarity to the Smith & Wesson .32/.38 Single/Double Action Revolvers is striking, so I am surprised there wasn't a patent infringement lawsuit.

Comments?

Moderators: This does pertain to antique Smith & Wesson revolvers and the most interest/best responses would be if retained in this section of the forum, I should think.

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"MRBOJANGLES" I see you made it to the marlin site. I like your gun. I always liked the break tops. I wish I had one in 44

Yes, S&W made the frames for the Model 1887 Marlin D.A. revolvers. S&W had the only drop forge in the Connecticut River Valley gun making area during the later 1800s and other gun makers paid S&W to forge gun parts for them. There are, or were, receipts & invoices in the archives at Marlin & S&W showing payment for time on the drop forge. Marlin ads for the Model 1887 said "... this model is identical to Smith & Wessons and every bit as good..." Over the production life of the Model 1887 there are numerous small engineering changes, however the frames did not change. In years past I had probably the world's largest collection of the Marlin Model 1887 D.A.s with over 40 examples, all slightly different, but that's another story. Ed.

Thank you, Ed!

Seems odd that it would be worth it for Smith & Wesson to produce components so that a competitor could create a revolver to sell and compete against Smith & Wesson's finished product, but such it was!

Any ideas how much Marlin paid Smith & Wesson for the frame (and additional components, if this was the case) and how much Smith & Wesson .32/.38 SA/DA revolvers cost at this time? Just having a bit of trouble understanding why Smith & Wesson would produce a product for a competitor, especially since both products were so very similar.

Also, what did the Marlin 1887 cost?

Seems like, to me, as these were so similar, if it was the 1880's or '90's and I was in the market for one of these, given their extreme similarity, I would have purchased that which was cheapest.

Also, Ed, just like with Smith & Wesson frames, would all have been forged pre-1899 and therefore be antique? Given production was from 1887 to 1899, it seems like this would be more likely than not.

Gents, and ladies,

Bear in mind that Smith and Wesson was a manufacturer with productive capacity, maybe not fully utilized, who was in business to make money. the just happened to do so manufacturing firearms, and components. If you look at their website today, you'll see that they offer CNC machining services to whosoever will pay for those services.

i recall a former boss of mine in my first machine shop job, telling me, "Son, in this business, the grocer and the banker may not be able to help you,but your competitor always can."

So it comes as no surprise to me that they made parts for their competitor, and they probably made as much off of the frames as Marlin did off of the finished handgun.

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

As said above, S&W had an investment in the cost of the drop forge and any idle time was not making S&W any money, so why not rent out forge time to anyone that wants to use it? I don't think S&W had too many fears that a competitor's revolvers were going to make any big dent in S&W sales. Marlin made something like 15,000 Model 1887s before they dropped the model and stuck to long guns thereafter . S&W made, and sold, probably 50 times as many DA revolvers. Ed.

Is all production considered to be antique? If not, was serialization sequential such that below a certain serial number can be considered to be pre-1899? If not, is all production considered not to be antique due to the inability to differentiate? I did have to complete a 4473 at the time of purchase. Grips are the earlier style and if sequential, or nearly so, a serial number of 1739 suggests earlier production.

Uncle Ed, for those of us that are not into factory work, could you explain exactly what a drop forge is? I know that a forge is used to heat metal and a fridge is used to keep beer cold but beyond that I am clueless.

I do know that when I took the S&W factory tour, when they still had one, they were stamping out silverware for some outside company. So S&W was and is in the business to make money regardless of whether it is with their own guns or someone else's.

Actually not really when you think about it. When S&W sold a S&W they made all of the money, however, when Marlin sold a Marlin, S&W made part of the money. Perhaps as much as 1/3 to 1/2.

That would be like having your competitors pay you so that they could stay in business.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Of all those old manufacturers, I found Marlin produced arms to be a respectable and of good quality (mostly). Another manufacturer I was impressed by was Merwin Hulbert, thanks to Art Phelps who pioneered the collecting of M&H with the sole publication on this brand back in the 1980s (A few weeks back i happened upon my, now defunct, Merwin Hulbert Collectors Assn Membership Card from 1997).

And ... even though Walter Roper worked for H&R, I could just never find much of anything about Harrington & Richardson that I liked.

Also ... most of the older Rollin White patent infringement guns, I never much liked any of them except very few like: National, Brooklyn Arms Co, Manhattan and a few others, only because of the quality.

Most others were just cheap (or cheaper) copies. Then when you get to the imported copies I always wondered .. "WHY" ? I suppose they were considerably cheaper and likely function to some degree of reliability when new but most wore / aged awfully.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

If my memory is not faulty, M-H did not produce guns. The M-H guns were made by Hopkins and Allen.

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Tom
1560

From the information I have on Marlin revolvers, the Model 1887 was manufactured from 1887 to 1899, so effectively would all be considered antiques if they used manufacturing dates. The listing of Antique gun cut-off serial numbers, as published by James Wesley, Rawles, do not list Marlin revolvers.

It was very common for companies to manufacture products for competitors and is still done today. The competitors become customers and those suppliers position in the marketplace actually is strengthened by the fact that they are running at higher capacity, which equates to lower cost per unit. It was very easy for S&W to maintain a competitive advantage and those sales helped the company keep cost down. If Marlin ever started to show too much growth in the marketplace, all S&W had to do was stop selling frames to them.

When S&W made frames for Marlin, they had several unique advantages. First they knew exactly how much it cost Marlin to buy forged frames, they knew exactly how many revolvers Marlin was capable of manufacturing and I am sure they charged more for Marlin frames than their own to maintain a competitive advantage. Lastly, Marlin was completely controlled by S&W in the revolver market.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

A drop forge is a machine that uses a large flywheel to repeatedly bring a large plate or hammer down onto a piece of red hot metal that is placed inside a die. The metal is compressed to fill the die, thereby forcing the grain structure in to a homogeneous pattern that increases the strength of the material. Much stronger than cast material.

Drop Forging process - YouTube

Robert

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

JSR, Robert has explained the drop forge very well. If you recall the drop forge stamping out silverware, then it is the same for a revolver frame, just different die. Ed.

I'm so far removed from M&H, I'm not sure. I'd like to think they were independently manufactured in early years. In later years, yes, F&W did then there was Merwin & Bray (I don't recall where they come in).

Guess I have to go crack open a few old books. (books, there's a word you won't see 100 years from now).

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Just happened across this thread, had actually forgot about my Marlin 1887. About 6-7 years ago saw a post in a local newspaper about some revolvers for sale. My Son and I called and dropped in on the gent, when the smoke cleared I left $175 lighter but in possession of a 1921 3rd Model Iver Johnson 22 and a real nice Marlin 1887, 100 bucks of the 175 for it. Other than the small chip in the stock, it’s in very good shape for the age. 1895 is a guess based on the S/N, but it’s only a guess, no records I can find.

Nice to read this thread and confirm what I had been told through the years about the use of the S&W forge. When pictured side by side with a Smith they are virtually identical so it makes perfect sense. Even better, so I’ve been told anyway, these were the ‘last’ handguns ever made by Marlin. Not the rarest of revolvers, but not that common either from what I hear, still a neat addition to my small collection.

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Danny
SWCA #3370 - SWHF #672

I had the opportunity to tour the S&W factory in Springfield about 10 years ago. We were taken into the drop forge area and watched it in operation. Our guide mentioned that at the time, and I would assume still today, S&W did drop forging and also heat treatment of metal parts on a contract basis for others. He didn't say specifically, or at least I don't recall, if that included other gun manufacturers.