Back in 2015, had the chance to acquire a WWII Savage built Thompson 1928 A1, most likely manufactured very late 1941 or early 1942.

I bought it at an auction, cost 2200 Swiss francs (abt the same in US$). The modern semi auto only version is sold for 2700 here, so it was an easy decision for me.

















It also came with two stick mags, 20 and 30 rounds

Markings



















Magazine







Field strip

That is a fine looking piece of history, especially seeing the various factory names on parts. How does the animal shoot??

terry

...wow...I would think it's probably worth at least ten times that much...

...I have fired one at a machine gun shoot...one of those bucket list moments...

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A Country Boy Can Survive

Switzerland, land of beautiful women and FA firearms ....

Yea, but he didn't tell you what he has to do in order to shoot it! Can't just throw it in the car to go shooting. Enlighten us Classic12 on the cost and hoops you have to jump through to shoot it for the day. Very nice Tommy.

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Dave Ramsey Cultist

I guess my post didnt take. What are the laws over there on owning full auto weapons??

I cut my teeth on a Thompson way back when they were fairly affordable over here. We had two brand new M28's and an M1A1 that was a $200.00 dealer sample (no zeros are missing).

One of best of classic machine guns of all times! You may also enjoy reading either of Cox's or Helmers books on the Thompson Machine Guns. Enjoy it, there just sexy! Kyle

The example the Swiss member acquired appears to be one of the ones shipped to Great Britain during WW II. it also has the early features finned barrel, Lyman rear sight, and vertical for-end. The condition also appears to be excellent. If he comes back on I'd suggest he look and see if the upper and lower are matching!
I am not familiar with the current full auto shooting laws in Switzerland and would be interested in hearing about them as well.
When I used to assist in the Gunsmithing dept. of my local club we had two of these (A M28 and an M1A1) that were used as rentals. We used to literally get bus loads of foreign tourists that would come to the club for the express purpose of shooting full auto weapons and the Thompson's were 2 of the most popular examples. I re-barreled each of them at least twice!
Jim

That's a great looking Thompson!

Yes it would be interesting to know the rules of ownership for a full-auto weapon in Switzerland.

That gun would bring about $28k here at this time. Of course, the U.S. forbids importation of it, so that's irrelevant.

Curl

The only automatic weapon that ever interested me was the
Pre M1a1 Thompson. I use to have a old gun magazine that
had pictures of special order Thompsons from before 34. Some
had fancy wood and even engraving. I shot a lot of M1a1 & M3s
in service. The 27s & 28s I have shot were privately owned and
they are classic well built guns. I had the opportunity to shoot
a Colt with new barrel and was amazed by the accuracy.

Beautiful Weapon! -- that brings back memories to me. We used to hand them WW2 Thompsons out to the Montagnard people by the crate load for the CIDG program.
Can you imagine the worth of all them today.

Switzerland is a gun country, with a militia army and a solid tradition of shooting, with service rifles and pistols being kept at home, and available to soldiers when they finish their service for a very modest re-arsenaling fee (full autos being converted to semi auto only).

There are hundreds of military shooting ranges, with 300, 50 and 25 meters lanes. Those ranges are used by civilian shooting associations run by former military personable (real passionate people generally) and ordnance ammo is available, and sometimes subsidised.

Swiss attics are full of K11 & 31, Sig 510 & 550, as well as the whole array of Swiss issue handguns. A guy at the local range just bought a Sig P 210 army for 500.-. I bought mine for 600.- from a colleague, and a ‘57 assault rifle (SIG 510) for 350.-

As to full auto weapons, unlike the US (1986 act?), they are all legal to own under certain circumstances (sizeable collection, serious security and safe storage) but very difficult to shoot. You have to ask for a special permit for a specific date (cost 150.-) and a range that agrees. Not easy.

So you can occasionally find all kinds of full auto weapons, old and new (M16, AK 47, HK G33 & MP5, Glock 18, Sten, UZI, modern SIGs etc) at reasonable prices (typically 1 to 3 grands).

Due to the restrictions for shooting, interest in full autos is not that high. I once spoke to a guy who worked at a range. He owned dozens of full autos, and kept buying. Guess he had some AOH shooting possibilities.

You are correct, it is a British lend / lease. The sling attachment on the front grip is also typical on these.



Not sure how you can tell if the upper and lower are matching. They sure seem to be in colour and condition, but there is only one serial number on the upper.

That range wasn't SGC, Scottsdale Gun Club by chance ? I was there in February 2015 with a friend, the 1st thing I asked for was the Thompson. Unfortunately it was in maintenance. So I settled for these :



M16A2 and HK MP5k

Tons of fun

Yes it is the Scottsdale Gun Club. As you probably noted that have, or at least used to have, around 30 full autos for rent ranging from UZIs and HK MP5s on up. Keeping them running was a challenge as HK won't sell parts for MP 5s any more even to those properly licensed! Go figure! Parts which used to be plentiful are becoming harder to find for classics like Thompson's, MP 40s, STENs etc. I haven't been in Gunsmithing there for several years now and I'm not sure what they currently have for rentals.
The ones I particularly enjoyed shooting were the P90s and these are currently deployed by our Secret Service!
I hope your visit there was an enjoyable one!
Jim

OK, US Lend Lease property to Great Britain during WW2. I say that it remains United States property, and WE WANT IT BACK!

Shall I send it straight to the BATF then ?

Don't bother. Just mail it to me and I'll take care of it for you!!

Rich

You probably already know this, but just in case you don't.

Your drum is marked WIND 9 OR 11 CLICKS.

This is because of the different rates of fire.

9 clicks and it unwinds at the correct speed to feed the 28. 11 clicks makes it unwind faster to keep up with a 21.

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I always take precautions

$40,000 might not get it around these parts. Very nice rifle . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

...As to full auto weapons, unlike the US (1986 act?), they are all legal to own under certain circumstances (sizeable collection, serious security and safe storage) but very difficult to shoot. You have to ask for a special permit for a specific date (cost 150.-) and a range that agrees. Not easy.
And there's the rub, $150 for a ONE day pass, if you can find a range that allows it, I wonder if you can shoot it at your own property?

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Dave Ramsey Cultist

Send it to me and I'll make you a case to carry it in, Chicago style. Just kid'n, don't want that thing around me without a tax stamp.

Attached Images

	Chicago-Typewriter.jpg (97.7 KB, 148 views)
	IMG_20160217_175257_761 copy.jpg (57.6 KB, 130 views)

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Dave Ramsey Cultist

I know ... because you told me so 3 years ago (I didn’t know then). Thanks again.

Well nothing’s perfect heh. I can buy it easily and cheap, but shooting it has restrictions. You can shoot it easily, but have to fork out the price of a very nice car. If you can find one for sale (the FA gun, not the car ).

So the difference can cover quite a few daily licenses. I’d rather be in my shoes then.

As to what people may or can do on their private property, I don’t really know, but I believe the law allows shooting in general on your private property, provided access are controlled / fenced, proper / safe backup is in place and it’s not a nuisance for the neighbours .

That being said, it’s a very small country and land is expensive, we don’t have vast plains like the US. I can only dream of a range like Hickok 45 has.

You make those ?? Beautiful. I imagine the cost is close to what the gun cost me.

The only serial number on those is the upper. When the government torched Thompsons they only torched the upper. I really never quite understood that, because the upper is a relatively easy part to make compared to the lower.

I had a friend of mine that actually built a section to replace the area torched out of the middle of the upper on a parts kit I had. We never welded it in, but it would have only taken a little time to weld in and finish machining it.

Torched as in cut with a blow torch ??

Back in 1971 or '72, I was offered a 1921 Thompson by a Class III dealer for $600. It was a trade in from an AL police Dept. and included one drum magazine. The SN on the Colt manufactured gun was 96! At the time I was a young Army captain with a wife and two young children, so I passed due to the total cost of $800 when the transfer tax was included. In hindsight, considering the price today, it was a poor economic decision, but seemed right at the time.

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Tom
1560

The 1921 is even rarer and expensive, right ? And a two digit serial number.

But you just can’t think like that. 16 years ago I sold my 1991 Porsche 911 turbo for $ 35k. Now worth $ 100k. And 12 years ago I sold my 1995 911 twin turbo for $ 60k. Now worth $ 120k plus. Oh well. Hindsight is 20/20.

Thompsons and Porsche's are both out of my league. Enjoy!

Colt manufactured the first 15,000 Thompsons and the quality was unparalleled compared to future groups. They declined to produce any more due to the negative publicity the Thompson's were getting as a gangster weapons(sound familiar?). A two digit serial number Thompson would be a very desirable collector item assuming it was still in it's original condition. $50,000 + wouldn't surprise me at a well attended auction. Not many were sold until the onset of WW II and changes were made at that time. The remaining 21's were over stamped 28 and the internal bolt and actuator were modified to slow the cycle rate down to around 600 rounds per minute. As time went on the adjustable Lyman sight was changed to a simple "L" sight and the finned barrel was changed to a smooth one.
However the time involved to produce these and the associated costs were too high for the Government and Savage(One of the principle war time producers) was tasked with simplifying the gun. The Blish lock was eliminated turning it into a simple slam fire weapon and the slots were no longer machined to incorporate the drums. The stock was no longer hand detachable and now held on with two bolts. There were other changes apparent when a side by side comparison was made. The end result was the much simpler M1A1. Even with this the government was still looking for a cheaper and faster alternative and the Grease Gun was developed and widely distributed thru the remainder of the War.
Jim

Classic 12-

Please discuss Swiss pistol laws, including legal carrying.

I read somewhere that the laws about that were tightened some years ago. ??

Has Switzerland had any terrorist incidents?

How soon were M-3 Grease Guns in use? Late 1943? Early 1944?

I've never seen any in photos of the Invasion or soon after. (June 6) Only Thompsons until 1945 photos. But some were probably in use.

The only M-3 photos I've seen were taken in the Pacific and same for M-2 carbines. But I've read that some saw service in Europe late in the war.

Yes, the government over here "demilled" thousands of military surplus guns, including Thompsons, BAR's, Brownings, even some M1's and 1911's. This was mostly done with a torch, but some were cut with a big saw. Depending on where the serial numbers were is where they were cut.

We used to be able to buy parts kits of these demilled guns.

It's crazy, but on the belt fed Brownings only the right side plate was demilled. You can actually shoot one without that plate but not for very long.

That Tommy with his Tommy gun, assuming the gun was loaded, would not be able to get off a shot. The bolt is closed on an empty chamber. All Thompsons (except new semiautos) fire from an open bolt.

I guess that this was not widely known in Blighty - here is a shot of Winston Churchill struggling to insert a 50-round drum magazine into a Thompson from the side - impossible to do when the bolt is forward.



For more information and plenty of pictures on the Thompsons, see my photo album on them here:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/members...hompsons-.html

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Yep, the drum is definitely empty in the top photo. As John mentioned you have to open the bolt to insert the drum. So, he either just finished emptying the drum (doubtful) or the drum was empty to begin with.

The guns laws used to be ruled by the States (we are a confederation of 23 states). My state allowed carry, concealed only. Regretfully by the end of last century, almost 20 years ago, they unified the gun laws into a single federal law. Gun carry now requires a special license with a “need” clause (whether you are a professional, or zillionaire risking being kidnapped), is very hard to obtain and is quite restrictive (I believe 3 or 4 guns can be listed on the license, max 10 mm).

On the other hand it is a pretty quiet and safe place, so carrying was mostly for fun, or feel good factor.

Only once did I carry for safety : my employer asked me to pick up $ 150’000 in cash at the bank (they kindly gave me a shoe box) and deliver it to a business partner in a 5* hotel 1/2 mile away.

I packed a 1939 Walther PPK in .32 auto loaded with Silvertips.

It would have been stupid to lose that sum to a punk with a knife.

I don’t remember any terrorist attack here, no.

Our worst case of mass shooting :

Zug massacre - Wikipedia

When I got mine I was reading it as 9 TO 11, not 9 OR 11, so was winding it ten. Kept jamming. The drum was running faster than the gun was.

Then someone told me that meant EITHER. OOOHHHHH. That makes sense.

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I always take precautions

Thanks for your thread.

To verify matching upper and lower serial # match:

Your Tommy gun has a quick release butt stock; push the button on the upper rear stock tang and pull to the rear.

The lower will have the matching serial # stamped where the stock slides on and off.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Classic12, nice Thompson! There are a lot of Thompson collectors here in the States. A couple events happen each year for shows and shoots, both the Thompson Collector's Association (TCA) and the American Thompson Association (TATA) hold annual events in Ohio. I suggest joining to get the newsletters even in you cannot attend. I see others members on this S&W Forum are already members of the Machinegunboards.com website the premier source for online information on Thompsons.
What is most interesting is a friend of mine recently got an S&W 76 SMG, and we are going to compare it to the Thompson when we get a chance! Both fine guns!

giantpanda4,

Good to see you here on the S&W Forums. Looks like I caught your very first post here, though your join date is 5 years ago (you lurker!).

I'll second your recommendation of the annual TATA event in Ohio. I've been there twice, and had the pleasure of meeting you there, but more recent years I've had a scheduling conflict each summer.

Kind regards,
Curl

Some memories from 2011 TATA event.







Setting up for the falling plate match:





A video link of TD's run to the championship:

2011-08-06_12-42-51_826.3gp - YouTube



And finally, the infamous TD dumps a C drum (100 rounds):

TD Dumps a C Drum - YouTube



Curl

I recently lucked into some mags, a weird seller had lots of different mags, supposedly accumulated them in case he buys the guns that go with it. But he does not have a Thompson, or an M14, or Steyr AUG ... Paid $ 30 apiece



The drum is the one I already had.

Then to the range, but shooting semi auto only unfortunately

Shoots decently at 50 meters off hand, for an open bolt









Also took a Colt 1911 along, shooting at 25 meters off hand



Then a field strip and some good cleaning and oiling







I love how simple and sturdy this gun is, built to last and take abuse. A real classic piece of history.

Actually no, I have about $125 or so in it with materials and all, it took a while to complete though because I kept changing my design and finish.

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Dave Ramsey Cultist