I've been considering getting a full size 1911 for range use and to shoot in the local IDPA matches every now and then. Not looking for anything fancy, just a 1911 that's functional and reliable out of the box. Doesn't have to be "original GI."

I've been searching/researching here and on a couple other forums. One question I haven't been able to answer is about series 70 vs series 80. I think I understand difference between them, but I'm not sure I understand if the difference actually matters.

Are the series 70 models not drop safe because they don't have the trigger actuated firing pin safety? Are the series 80 models terrible shooters or maintenance nightmares because of the extra components?

Thanks.

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Vegan by proxy.

Well as you said they have more parts to monkey with and I have been less than impressed with the trigger pulls 70s v 80s

As the design came out in the early 1900s and the 80 series came out much later if the dropping thing you mentioned was that serious things would have been changed long ago.

FWIW I do have a Series 70 Gold Cup that has had some combat modifications done to it by me and that trigger pull in that gun is fantastic!(Stock). I did carry this gun for a while and of course it was carried cocked and locked and I was comfortable with it that way!

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

I have one of each, and am no expert, but my thoughts:
1. Are the series 70 models not drop safe because they don't have the trigger actuated firing pin safety?
Maybe not as safe if you drop the gun on the hammer. My 70 is a Gold Cup and trigger was excellent out of the box.

Are the series 80 models terrible shooters or maintenance nightmares because of the extra components?
Mine is an excellent shooter, my Mod 80 trigger out of the box was not as crisp as the Mod 70, but a trigger job by an expert (included polishing and easing sharp edges on the firing pin block, a small vertical pin in the action) fixed that just fine.

The 70 series under extreme circumstances can fire if dropped. The problem is easily solved by installing a heavy duty firing pin spring to control the inertia of the 1911s free floating firing pin. It is true that a Series 70 is much easier than a series 80 to Trigger tune but 1911 Gunsmiths have learned over the years to tune the 80 series every bit the equal of the series 70. Any series 80 can be easily converted to the 70 series ignition system with the removal of 3 parts and a spring and installation of a simple spacer available at nominal cost from Brownells. With patience this part is simple to install, (use a small dab of grease), and now, hey presto, you have series 70. To me this all much ado about nothing. Buy a Colt and enjoy!

In addition to the above, another "system" that is in use is what Kimber uses on series two guns. Called the "Swartz System", it is a firing pin block that is operated when the grip safety is used, not effecting the trigger pull.

I have several with that safety, and the triggers are just about as good as my series 70 Gold Cup, and better than my series 80 stainless Gold Cup. All have proven reliable in actual use.

I believe the rise of the series 80 / Kimber "Swartz" system / titanium firing pin / heavier pin spring systems was a result of new "drop testing" laws that became popular in recent years.

Larry

Exactly.. the 80 Series the trigger when pulled is linked to the firing pin block. Thus the problem getting a great trigger feel.

I own Series 80, Series 70 and Pre-70 series 1911s. Honestly, I've never found any real difference in the trigger pull on any of them. I think the whole bad trigger hype in the 80 series is just the result of some overly picky self appointed so-called experts who just wanted something to gripe about.
For all practical purposes and for probably 90% or more of the shooters out there, the Series 80 trigger is just fine. Plus it does add an extra degree of safety for those who carry 1911s.

I CONCUR WITH THE OPINION OF NYlakesider.....

IMHO, THE CHANGE TO THE SERIES '80 DESIGN WAS MADE FOR POLITICAL REASONS, MORE THAN TO CORRECT ANY FLAWS IN THE ORIGINAL DESIGN.....

I TOO CHOSE A '70 SERIES GOLD CUP, PERSONALIZED WITH WILSON COMBAT PARTS, AS MY EDC WEAPON FOR MORE THAN 3 DECADES. I ALWAYS CARRIED IT COCKED 'N LOCKED. I NEVER HAD A PROBLEM, AND THE TRIGGER WAS SUPERB FROM THE GIT-GO......

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I'm a 1911 purist so I prefer the Series 70 over the 80!

And a lot easier to tune if it has a problem.

I carried my 70 series service pistol cocked and locked until 2013, then bought a Kimber ultra TLE. When I had to give up the 45, I went to 9mm, some have been 70, some 80.

Never any trouble with any of the three styles.
No concern carrying any of them.

I don't shoot competition, so can't offer comments there.

A lot of people claim that the trigger on a series 80 style 1911 isn't as good (or able to be tuned) as well as those on series 70 pistols, or those without a FPS. I don't know about that...I've owned a couple of series 80 Colts, and the triggers seemed fine to me. What is a concern to me is that the series 80 style pistols are somewhat more difficult to disassemble/reassemble for me...may not be for everyone.

Modern series 70 style pistols use a lightweight (usually titanium) firing pin and a heavier spring, to overcome the inertia problem if the pistol is dropped. I prefer the series 70 style, and have no concerns about a modern 1911 (such as my SR1911) being safe.

The Swartz Safety previously mentioned in #5 (it requires the grip safety to be squeezed to unblock the firing pin) dates from just before WWII. I think the only GMs made by Colt at that time which incorporated it were .38 Supers, and not very many of those. It didn't affect the trigger mechanism in any way. The plan was to eventually use it in .45 pistols also, but WWII intervened so Colt dropped the idea.

Both the new Colt series 70 and the Springfield Armory 1911s have titanium firing pins and stronger springs. They are, for all practical purposes, drop safe from inertial discharges.

It's still a 1911 unlike the ones with that ugly external extractor.

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9tenz

I own examples of both.

Since they’ve all had attention from my gunsmith, I can’t tell the difference in the triggers.

I have no option about whether the M70’s had better triggers than M80’s out of the box: I didn’t shoot them out of the box or compare them side by side out of the box.

As a Bullseye shooter, I find the Series 80 trigger quite annoying. It is just more "stagey". Doesn't matter how much you smooth the parts or what the trigger weight is. Yeah, you can drop a few parts and fit a spacer from Brownell's. But, it's not match-legal.

In addition, the whole Series 80 initiative was intended to serve a political purpose, made up by people who don't know the first thing about guns.
That's enough right there to put me off.

If you're prone to habitually dropping guns maybe the Series 80 thing is for you. But, if you have a choice, I'd go for the original Series 70.

Best Regards,
Jim

Pardon the pun, but I’ve been gun shy about Kimber. Not trying to stir up a controversy and no first hand experience with them, but I seem to run across a lot of complaints. Poor quality control. Poor customer service.

Sounds like you have Kimbers. What’s your take? Internet nonsense? True for some products, not others?

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Vegan by proxy.

FWIW, I am not a 1911 purist, I am having a blast with the Springfield Mil Spec 1911. We are entitled to what we want, but if you are open to a Springfield, you might like it, you can buy a lot of ammo for the difference in price.

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I have no ardvaark in this race. I know two people who have personally owned Kimber 1911's who said they were absolute lemons. I also know someone who carries a Kimber 1911 on duty and says it's just fine 'if you keep it clean'.

I've been tempted to try one, but the thought of a thousand dollar lemon doesn't sit well with me. I've had good luck with Colt and Springfield. Make sure you can inspect them before purchase.

I've owned three Kimber 1911s...not the entry level models, either...they were all well over $1K. None of them would run a full box of ammo with malfunctions. The gunsmith at the LGS where I bought them couldn't make them run either. Kimber's response: "Shoot 500 rounds and then call us." At about $25 a box of 50 (price varies on brand and where you buy it) in order to fire 1,500 rounds it would have cost me at least $750 just to get Kimber's attention. That is something I won't put up with. A car, for example, is much more mechanically complex than a 1911, but we expect it to work correctly when we drive it off the lot, don't we? If you buy a new car and it stalls, backfires, dies, and generally won't run correctly, are you going to be happy if the dealer tells you to drive it 500 miles and then call him?

Some people love their Kimbers, and they are indeed beautiful pistols, but in my experience Kimber's CS is very poor, and I will never own another one.

When Kimber 1911s first came on the market around 1997 or so, they kicked everyone's butts! Out of the box accuracy, reliability, and with a really trigger to boot!
I got a Gold Match in 1998, and it's really awesome! I use it as my primary centerfire for Bullseye. I have never once had an alibi in a match, or any sort of malfunction. It's never fired anything but my own handloads, all with cast or swaged SWCs.

However, I have no idea about anything they've made for years.

Best Regards,
Jim

In the 1911, I view firing pin safety systems as one more component that can fail and render the firearm inoperable. A heavy firing pin spring will prevent pretty much any firing if the pistol is dropped onto its muzzle. As for a 1911 that is ready to go straight out of the box... hmmmm... Ruger makes darned good 1911's and I like the fact that the plunger tube is cast as part of the receiver, so it will never loosen or come completely off of the receiver.

And yes, a properly cast and heat treated steel 1911 receiver is just fine. The receiver does not have to be forged or milled from bar stock. The slide, however, does need to be forged or milled from bar stock as it takes the most shock during recoil.

I have an 80 series Gold Cup. I have compared trigger to 70 series and can't tell a difference.

Les Baer and end it...best combination of target gun accuracy with total combat reliability, at least on mine.

Model 70s are ok but the one I owned had the very tiny gov sights not useful in todays competition. Mine was so loose fitted, it shot patterns and not groups. The Gold Cups maybe ok but I expect they could not compete with the Baer in accuracy. They will be more of a collectible in todays market and not worth to wear out in competition.

Never heard anything good about Kimber and never seen one in competition, never seen a 80s series either.

I have a Serie 70 Combat Commander with a sweet trigger and a serie 80 Gold Cup with a trigger so ordinary!
Maybe it is a fluke;afterall a sampler of 2 guns is not many but to me,no contest.Serie 70 is best.

The trigger on my Kimber Custom Shop Pro CDP breaks like glass. It to me is the finest out of the box 45 auto trigger pull I've ever experienced!
Jim

I have both and you can't tell any discernable difference if set up right. It just adds weight to the trigger pull, but that can be taken out with a good trigger job or one done right from the factory. Sorry purists.

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Dave Ramsey Cultist

I agree. I was set to pull the series 80 parts from both my R1's until I tested the difference. The average difference in pull was a few ounces at best but with both breaking at 3-1/2 pounds from the factory, what would I have gained.

Owned many 1911 Colts over the years...in my opinion it is just hysteria. Like a 12 ga shotgun will blow your shoulder clean off...

With so many manufacturers of high-end 1911's now...let's put this one to rest if you are the 1% who can tell the difference in trigger pull.

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Rather be outdoors

Ya just gotta LOVE a system named "Swartz". S&W 1911's like mine use the Swartz.
Let's see....series 70 vs series 80, internal extractor vs external extractor, full length recoil rod or GI recoil rod. Throw in a Swartz in the mix and you have the makings for an epic thread.

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