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  #1  
Old 09-22-2018, 01:52 PM
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Default A Review of Five Classic 9mm Handguns

SIG 210
Built by Schweizerische Industriegesellschaft in Neuhausen / Switzerland from 1949 on and used by the Swiss and Danish military and in limited numbers of 5,000 by the German borderguards this pistol was quickly adopted by European civilian shooters for their astonishing quality and accuracy. A removeable hammer unit that is numbered to the gun makes cleaning easier. This gun displays an amazingly good finish inside and out!
I love the Swiss SIG P210 series, having owned two of them and only parting with one that was gifted to my oldest son, I find this to be an exceptional semi automatic service pistol! It is made to very close tolerances and has a superb trigger. The service trigger has a 1 kg trigger spring while the sports triggers of the -5 and -6 models have a 500 gr spring. The pistol is slim and elegant, having a low bore axis, it does not move a lot when being fired. The most common complaint about the P210 is hammer bite. The Danish Army just trimmed the hammer spurs down, I have included a photo of a trimmed Danish hammer and a complete hammer unit for a -1 to -4, while the -5 and -6 have the hammer unit affixed to the frame by an extra screw.



Browning Model 35
Generally known as the High Power, or Grand Puissance in French, this gun was the first military pistol using a double stack high capacity magazine at its introduction in 1935. This pistol has a lengthy military career, being adopted by too many countries to list.
The Belgian Brownings still have a large following after all these years and when I shoot mine, I understand why. It also has a low bare axis and does not feel blocky in my hand, it is a well balanced pistol which allows fast follow up shots ,while having good accuracy. The trigger pull is usually suffering from the magazine safety but the safety can easily be removed to improve the trigger pull characteristics. It does not do wonders, though, the way that the trigger bar is working and guides forces through the slide is complicated and not easy to improve beyond a certain point.




SIG Sauer P220
Developed in Switzerland by SIG, this gun was designed as the successor to the SIG P49 (P210) used by the Swiss military and built at the SIG Sauer plant in Eckernfoerde, Germany.
To me this is a simple no-frills service gun of good quality with a good trigger and sights. It is easy to manipulate the safety and DA/SA trigger and displays good accuracy. The grip angle is suiting me but the bore axis is high and this gun is not as elegant and slim as the P210.



Walther / Manurhin P1
This version of the pistol was developed after WWII and received an aluminium alloy frame to become the new service pistol for the newly founded West German Bundeswehr. The P.38 had been the first locked breech DA/SA pistol and was designed in 1938, starting production in 1939. Unlike the other guns in this small review, it does not use a Browning locking mechanism but a moving locking block that lives on in the Beretta 92. It is also the only one that ejects to the left.
The P.38 was designed as a replacement of the very expensive and complicated to manufacture Luger P.08. It is a simple service pistol that was used by a military where handguns and handgun training have never played an important role. The P38 / P1 is accurate but the grip angle makes feeding hollow points a bit tricky and follow up shots are hard to do fast. This was my service pistol in a West German Panzergtrenadier Batallion where I was chosen to sight the pistols in and competed successfully with the P1 in military & police competitions.




Walther P88
Introduced in 1988 for participation in military tenders, the P88 was only built until 1996 since no major military or police contract were ever won by this gun. It saw interest from the civilian shooting community because of its good accuracy but the AWB that was introduced in 1994 curtailed interest in this expensive pistol.
The P88 is a well made gun that has great accuracy and a good enough grip angle to fire the pistol fast. Many shooters with smaller hands complain about the grip being too large and the levers hard to manipulate. I do not have a problem with that and used the P88 for a steel plate competition shoot for one season.





All of the above semi automatic 9 mm pistols are well made classics in today's market of plastic framed pistols that are giving good service at a superior price point. The main difference is in the charisma that these old traditionally manufactured guns ooze out. I consider all of them accurate enough to use in 25 m centerfire pistol matches but, of course, have my favourite: the SIG P210-6 for 25 m accuracy and the overall quality. It isn't just the trigger pull weight or the sheer mechanical accuracy that intrigues me, it is the shootability, it's the trigger characteristics, how the pistol fits my hand and inspires confidence.

Enjoy!

Last edited by Andyd; 09-22-2018 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 09-22-2018, 01:57 PM
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Great post. I enjoyed reading and seeing the pistols you referenced. It was perfect as I was able to anticipate some of the pistols you might reference and I was surprised as well! I'm always in awe of a sig p210.

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Old 09-22-2018, 02:02 PM
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Nice review. Reminds me of something one would read in a gun magazine.
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Old 09-22-2018, 02:05 PM
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Thanks guys. It in raining in Texas and I just had a short walk with Toro, the Doberman and then cooked and wrote this up.

I enjoy all of the five guns that I wrote about and want to share my positive experience with you.
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Old 09-22-2018, 02:39 PM
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Very nice post, as a German living in Switzerland I can totally relate
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Old 09-22-2018, 02:55 PM
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I have seen only 1 SIG 210 in 50 + years.
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Old 09-22-2018, 03:54 PM
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You posted a very interesting read. I realize you had to set some parameters here but the omission of the trendsetting S&W Model 39 was a surprise to me.
Jim
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Old 09-22-2018, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italiansport View Post
You posted a very interesting read. I realize you had to set some parameters here but the omission of the trendsetting S&W Model 39 was a surprise to me.
Jim
I gave my S&W 39-2 to a good friend, so I currently do not have one and did not make photos of it but I agree that the S&W 39 is a milestone in the development of the 9mm service pistol.
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Old 09-22-2018, 04:18 PM
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My favorite is the P-6 Sig Sauer. Mine is stamped 1980.
It fits my hand and I am accurate with it. I have 5 original magazines.
This pistol was used behind the Berlin Wall.
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Old 09-22-2018, 04:21 PM
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Andy,


What was the source of the grips on the P-1?
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Old 09-22-2018, 04:28 PM
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Have had a couple p6's myself! Probably still my favorite sig that I have owned. Now I'm sure a p210 may change that perspective!!
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My favorite is the P-6 Sig Sauer. Mine is stamped 1980.
It fits my hand and I am accurate with it. I have 5 original magazines.
This pistol was used behind the Berlin Wall.
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Old 09-22-2018, 04:30 PM
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Andy,


What was the source of the grips on the P-1?
I got them from a friend who was a German gun collector, I assume that they are German made.
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Old 09-22-2018, 04:38 PM
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Makes me think I should write a review of the weird and wacky 9mm pistols I own. Just call me Mr Quirky.
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Old 09-22-2018, 04:50 PM
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Thanks for a great review!

A Sig 210 has been a pistol that I’ve always wanted!
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Old 09-22-2018, 06:01 PM
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Gracias por mostrar tus armas,son todas lindas pero no hay duda de que la SIG P210 es la mas interesante por eso la llaman el Rolls-Royce de las pistolas.
La SIG SAUER P220 es muy de mi gusto ya que tengo una hace mas de 20 años pero en .45 ACP.
La BROWNING HP es una vieja amiga porque la use durante mi servicio militar yo soy de Argentina y en mi pais fue arma de servicio durante muchos años.
Las pistolas BERSA de 9 mm que se fabrican en mi pais estan inspiradas en la pistola WALTHER P88.
Tiene usted buenas armas.
Felicidades
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Old 09-22-2018, 06:08 PM
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Andyd, I enjoyed your comments and photos. I've owned examples of all those you reviewed. The only one that did not fit me at all was the P88. I bought a new one back when they were in production. While I have average hands, I soon realized I did not care for the P88 grip shape and size. Quality firearm, but I sold it without ever having fired a shot from it.

Still have examples of the Hi power, P210 and P220.

BTW, Since my first P210 back in the '80s, always believed the P210 to be, as you say, "slim and elegant" with a low bore axis.
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Last edited by Rock185; 09-22-2018 at 06:12 PM. Reason: BTW
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Old 09-22-2018, 06:35 PM
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Please do! I'm sure there are folks like me that have read too much about the popular more prevelent firearms that could benefit from some quirky!
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Makes me think I should write a review of the weird and wacky 9mm pistols I own. Just call me Mr Quirky.
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Old 09-22-2018, 07:52 PM
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You need a picture of one of these as one of the top classic 9mm's.
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:10 PM
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Mildly surprised not to see a CZ-75B or a Beretta M-92 series gun.
I find them attractive, accurate, and reliable. Of course, you can't cite every 9mm...

I like Leonardo Carillo's post about guns in Argentina. Some Latin American countries don't allow .45 ACP guns. Glad that he can own them.

Also was surprised to learn that Bersa makes a Walther P-88 copy.
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Old 09-23-2018, 06:15 AM
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This thread will go places Maybe not a "classic" because not well known; but the VIS 35 ( Polish), is highly regarded as one of the worlds great 9mm battle pistols.

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Old 09-23-2018, 06:20 AM
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Mildly surprised not to see a CZ-75B or a Beretta M-92 series gun.
I find them attractive, accurate, and reliable. Of course, you can't cite every 9mm...

I like Leonardo Carillo's post about guns in Argentina. Some Latin American countries don't allow .45 ACP guns. Glad that he can own them.

Also was surprised to learn that Bersa makes a Walther P-88 copy.
I had a CZ 75 when they just had come out and have long sold it. CZ improved the trigger of the 75 a lot since then and the SP-01 is a decent enough gun but I would not consider the CZ 75, nor the SP-01 a classic, or innovative in any respect. I would rather have included the underrated Radom VIS 35, had I not sold most of my WWII guns to concentrate on my Korth revolver collection.

I had shot a Star M30 a long time ago and found it extremely accurate. I also had a HK P9S that was extremely accurate but rather awkward to cock or shoot in DA mode. The P9S is usually credited for being the first pistol that used polymer in the trigger guard.

There are without doubt many accurate and well made guns out there but I had to draw the line and also wanted to use guns that I still own, or have easy access to. Most of the handguns in my little review have been trailblazing in the one or another aspect of handgun development.

As to the post by Leonardo Carillo, I think he should have posted this in English on an American gun site. I did not post the article in German, French, or Haitian Creole, which I very well could have done and make this a modern day Babylon.
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Last edited by Andyd; 09-23-2018 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 09-23-2018, 09:08 AM
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Nice post...good reviews of classics made of steel.

Not to drift too far, but my Hi-Power is the only pistol that I can actually control fairly well when practicing "weak hand" defense shooting. I think I have my EDC (revolver) down pretty good, but the bottom feeders always were "all over the map" and extremely time consuming from presentation to firing, but I do like to be somewhat prepared for a "strong side incapacitated" type incident, so I do at least try on some range trips.

The Browning just seems to quickly get in place and line up. The 1941 Luger was no way. Various 1911A1's also no way. Probably my eyes and hands as well as stance maybe, but anyway...the BHP works very well for me if I am carrying a semi.

Is it true that the SIG P-220 was the last of steel framed SIG's?

Saw one in a LGS for $850 in VG condition and had to ask why the big ticket on a used gun. That's where the comment about the last steel came from. Went back next morning to possibly dicker a deal...it was gone.
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Old 09-23-2018, 09:35 AM
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My P220 made in 1976 has an alumium alloy frame. The SIG Sauer ST models still have stainless slides and frames to the best of my knowledge but I am not really very knowledgeable about SIG Sauers, even though I have been to the factory in Eckernfoerde twice. I am actually more intrigued by revolvers than semi autos.

Last edited by Andyd; 09-23-2018 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Correction of year 1972 to 1976
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Old 09-23-2018, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmansguns View Post
Nice post...good reviews of classics made of steel.





Is it true that the SIG P-220 was the last of steel framed SIG's?

Saw one in a LGS for $850 in VG condition and had to ask why the big ticket on a used gun. That's where the comment about the last steel came from. Went back next morning to possibly dicker a deal...it was gone.
Sig still offers the metal frame 220..............

Steel? or alloy frame? I have, or had, several Sigs from the 80s and 90s all were alloy frames...... my oldest is a W German 220 in .45 The steel frame Sigs IIRC came later marketed as Range/Gaming/target versions of the 220. The only ones I recall were .45s.
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Old 09-23-2018, 11:28 AM
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I thought the SIG P-220 came out in 1975. We didn't see them here until later, at first imported by Browning under their name.

If you are certain that you had one in 1972, some published information may be wrong.

I suspect that Sr. Carillo lacks your fluency in various languages.
Maybe he can read English fairly well, but isn't fluent enough to post here in English. I enjoyed his contribution, and probably others did, also. But I agree that when possible, English should be used.

A Mexican member also posts at times in Spanish. I suppose he, too, feels he can't express himself well enough in English. But he has worthwhile things to say. I'd rather he post in Spanish than avoid posting at all.

Why on Earth do you, a German or German-American, speak Haitian Creole? It just seems an odd language for someone not a native there, or maybe a disaster relief worker. Do we still have a Peace Corps?

Or, is that tongue close enough to true French that you can just figure it out? Can you cope with French as spoken in Quebec? I gather there are differences from the mother tongue?

Last edited by Texas Star; 09-23-2018 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:07 PM
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Sorry, the gun was proofed in 1976. I will correct the typo.

I lived in France shortly and several years in Haiti. Haitian Creole isn't a recognized language but a dialect, with French, African, and a few English influences. The grammar is simple at most and with knowledge in a Latin based language, especially French, is easy enough to learn.

I read Carillo's post and would have given him a like for his informative post that is right on topic but still think that a response in English, even broken English, would have been more appropriate.

Last edited by Andyd; 09-23-2018 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:39 PM
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I am always surprised by the occasional post made in another language. I realize that there are folks on the forum who don't speak English fluently (or maybe not at all) and that is OK. However, Google Translate can do the conversion for them, and out of consideration for the 99.9% of us who don't speak or read other languages, I would suggest using it. That's what WE all have to do if we want to read those posts, and frankly, a lot of people won't bother. So, to reach the vast majority of the intended audience, using the translation tools to make the post just seems like the thing to do. Of course that's just my $0.02
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Old 09-23-2018, 02:54 PM
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Yes, I would have included the S&W M-39 since the Illinois State Police made it their issue handgun. How many others have seen or handled a SIG 210 ?
A Haitian friend said they go to school in French and speak Creole among themselves.
Leonard Carrillo ? Leo Carrillo was Duncan Renaldo's sidekick in "The Cisco Kid".
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Old 09-23-2018, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
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Yes, I would have included the S&W M-39 since the Illinois State Police made it their issue handgun. How many others have seen or handled a SIG 210 ?
A Haitian friend said they go to school in French and speak Creole among themselves.
Leonard Carrillo ? Leo Carrillo was Duncan Renaldo's sidekick in "The Cisco Kid".
On another board a Brazilian apologized for his somewhat shaky English. I told him here we speak Gun.
In Brophy's "The Krag Rifle" the chapter on the Norwegian Krags was written by a Norwegian.
Back when the internet was young, it must have been 1999, one of the administrators on AR15.com was Dutch. Usually Scandinavians and Dutch speak English and other European languages very well since their national TV transmits the shows in their original languages with subtitles. Like this, they get exposed to multiple languages from a young age on.
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Old 09-24-2018, 12:32 AM
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One reason why I admire my favorite Victoria's Secret models is that they are multilingual, usually speaking several languages. And I don't mean just Candice Swanepoel and Behati Prinsloo (Levine), whose first language is Afrikaans. Most Dutch-descended South Africans do now speak English, although Charlize Theron didn't. She told Jay Leno that she had to sit in front of a TV here to greatly expand her very limited English vocabulary and to sound American. An agent said he could get her roles, but only if she lost her accent. But Charlize is from a small town on the highveld in the Transvaal, and she heard mainly Afrikaans as she grew up. Behati and Candice grew up in more cosmopolitan areas. Behati may speak German as well as English and Afrikaans, as she's from Namibia, which was once German SW Africa. I think many residents still speak German. Yes, she was with her grandparents in a grocer in Cape Town when discovered by a model scout, but really lived mostly in Namibia. Today, as Mrs. Adam Levine, she lives in the US with her husband and their two kids. (Levine is the singer for Maroon 5.) And one has to listen carefully and know what to listen for to hear the Afrikaans/Dutch undertones in her speech. Candice sounds much different, about half British. I love her accent. She also speaks Brazilian Portuguese, as her fiance is Brazilian and taught her. Both have many interviews on YouTube, not all VS related. Doutzen Kroes's English has been perfected since she came to catwalk fame. But she probably learned some on Dutch TV. As you pointed out, many shows there are broadcast in English.

But some have to learn languages wholly unlike even their own alphabets. I used to know a Czech girl on another board, not gun-related. She wrote impeccable English, which she studied from age 5! And another Czech, who wrote limited fan fiction, said that she was doing her best, in a language very unlike what she knew. Of course, Paulina Porizkova was not just a famed model and actress; she writes children's' books. And as for Petra Nemcova, who fled then-communist Czechoslovakia, coming to the West and appearing on the cover of, Sports Ill. was a culture shock. She did learn English, and now raises funds for her charity to aid children orphaned by natural disasters, like the Thai tsunami that almost took her life and did kill her fiance.

Andy, you and Classic12 and other Germans here (some now American) all use terrific English and I really admire that.

I do recall Leo Carillo being Duncan Reynaldo's pal on, The Cisco Kid TV . Leo in Argentina probably wonders whether anyone here would notice that show-derived name. Been many years since it was on TV.

A Mexican member calls himself Villa's Artillery (in Spanish). THAT may upset some US members, as Pancho Villa is seen here as much a bandit who raided the United States and caused a punitive expedition as he was a revolutionary figure. But I enjoy this member's posts.

Mostly, we get along well here. None of the few members with whom I have differences is other than a US citizen. But I do admire our multilingual members. Still, you're right: if one can, he/she should post here in English. Patvince does pretty well, although he's French. But he's also a professional herpetologist, so if we're talking about any snakes whose common names may vary, he can cite the scientific names. Kurusu (Portuguese) has perfect English. (Hi, Mario, if you see this.)

I like the post above that said we ultimately come here to speak a common language: "Gun!"

Uh, is this what's known as "thread drift"? I guess we should get back to discussing nice 9mm pistols. But Andy, I really do admire your perfect English skills. And the same to Swissman, Classic12, and that other guy whose name I'm ashamed to admit momentarily escapes my memory. We have a couple of other German members whose names I don't recall, as they seldom post. But when they do, they have excellent English.

I don't trust Google Translate. I've seen it make grievous errors. A Czech girl got a message from that medium, and said it so mangled her language that most, apart from some insulting profanity, was unintelligible gibberish.

Oh, well. Back to the actual topic...

Last edited by Texas Star; 09-24-2018 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 09-24-2018, 12:34 AM
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Nice write-up, Andy.

My vote for one of the all-time greats would go to the pre-B CZ75, which has been copied extensively and used in the armed forces of many countries. I wish I hadn't sold mine.
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Old 09-24-2018, 07:16 AM
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The CZ 75 has definitely developed into a nice gun, the first ones had a loose hammer unit, leading to excessive creep. This was remedied by German gunsmiths by drilling and tapping the frame and fixing the hammer unit with set screws. While the CZ75 combined many desirable features, like the inverted slide rails it shares with the P210 and the Star 30, the high capacity magazine from the High Power and a decent double action / single action trigger, I still do not consider it a trailblazing milestone in small arms engineering. I suspect that one of the reasons why it got copied so often, is that there was no international patent filed by CZ.

This is a photo of my old CZ that I bought in the late 1980s and kept for almost a couple of decades. The next photo shows the common trigger-creep fix done in Germany by countless gun smiths and the large distributors, like Frankonia and Kettner. The SP-01 in the photo was a Christmas gift to my son a few years ago.
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File Type: jpg Brno M75.jpg (25.1 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg CZ 75 Jaegermodell.jpg (285.2 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg CZ SP-01 left (2).jpg (118.0 KB, 17 views)
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