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Old 09-28-2018, 08:04 AM
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does anyone have any have any recommendation besides Remington or Mossberg?

thanks
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Old 09-28-2018, 08:39 AM
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does anyone have any have any recommendation besides Remington or Mossberg?

thanks
Whatcha going to do with it?

A good bet you will get more answers with more information.
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Old 09-28-2018, 09:01 AM
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The Winchester model 12! It may not have all the features you want (exchangeable chokes), but they were around a very long time for a reason. Ditto for Ithica. I'd definitely be looking for used vs new.
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Old 09-28-2018, 09:07 AM
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Browning BPS. Quite possibly the nicest shotgun I have ever used.
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Old 09-28-2018, 09:20 AM
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I have a "new" Ithaca model 37. It has the choke tubes. I bought this gun about 10 years ago. It has been an excellent gun. That said the local dealer has quit carrying them and I am not sure what the company's health is like now.

I also have my grandfather's Model 12 Winchester. Three generations of hunters used this gun and it is still a good shooter.

If I were looking now, I would be looking hard at the Browning BPS.
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Old 09-28-2018, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
The Winchester model 12! It may not have all the features you want (exchangeable chokes), but they were around a very long time for a reason. Ditto for Ithica. I'd definitely be looking for used vs new.
x2 x3 x4.......No plastic or stamped junk in these two.
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Old 09-28-2018, 09:49 AM
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If you’re looking for a pump shotgun to shoot birds or clays, the old Winchester Model 12, Ithaca 37 or Remington 31 are head and shoulders better than any currently produced pump shotguns. These are readily available at modest cost.

The best of the currently produced pump shotguns is the Remington Wingmaster 870. Pistol grip stocks should be avoided like the plague in a shotgun you plan to use for wing shooting.

If you want a tacticool shotgun, I can’t help you. I find them clumsy, clunky things and poor choices for shooting at anything except stationary targets.

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Old 09-28-2018, 10:12 AM
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does anyone have any have any recommendation besides Remington or Mossberg?

thanks
I WOULD TAKE A HARD LOOK AT THE ITHACA 37.........
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Old 09-28-2018, 10:49 AM
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does anyone have any have any recommendation besides Remington or Mossberg?

thanks
So what's wrong with those two? To me, there is just not that much difference among pump guns (and I have six of them including two Model 12s) unless you are a shotgun snob. Even though no longer made, the Winchester 1200 and 1300 (actually the same gun) is my personal favorite and they are common on the used market. I used one in 12 gauge as my Skeet gun for many years. Never had the first problem with it and it still looks good after many thousands of shells.
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Old 09-28-2018, 10:54 AM
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Depends on what you are going to use it for.
If you have the need for 3 1/2 inch mag to "reach out" for geese or hard to get big northern ducks, a Benelli Nova would be a good choice.
But if you want wood it would be a no go, only comes in black and camo.

Other than that if you want the 3 1/2 in capability, Browning BPS at twice the price.
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Old 09-28-2018, 11:40 AM
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What? Here we are on the Smith & Wesson Forum and no one has mentioned the S&W models? No, not the 916, but the 1000P. It's a lot like the Remington 870. I started with an Ithaca 37 fifty years ago, which is good for a lefty since it's bottom eject (like the Browning BPS, I believe). Also have a Winchester Model 12. Both terrific firearms, but I'm also favorably impressed with the fit, finish, and functioning of my S&W 1000P......probably just blind sentiment since it's an S&W.
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Old 09-28-2018, 11:52 AM
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You don't say what the shotgun would be used for - hunting, skeet, home defense, range shooting, so my recommendation is if it's for home defense or the range.

I would recommend the H&R Pardner 12ga. It's a Remington 870 clone, but a slightly heavier gun. From all accounts, it is a robust and reliable shotgun...at a price that's ~$100 less than either the 870 or the 500.

I have had one for several years and have no complaints.
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Old 09-28-2018, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by thadheth View Post
What? Here we are on the Smith & Wesson Forum and no one has mentioned the S&W models? No, not the 916, but the 1000P. It's a lot like the Remington 870. I started with an Ithaca 37 fifty years ago, which is good for a lefty since it's bottom eject (like the Browning BPS, I believe). Also have a Winchester Model 12. Both terrific firearms, but I'm also favorably impressed with the fit, finish, and functioning of my S&W 1000P......probably just blind sentiment since it's an S&W.
I WOULD THINK THAT IT IS BLIND SENTIMENT----NOT KNOCKING THE GUN, BUT JUST SAYING......

IT DOESN'T HAVE THE LENGTHY HISTORY OF MY ITHACA 37, THAT SERVED IN THE MILITARY, AND IS A JOHN BROWNING DESIGN.....
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Old 09-28-2018, 12:08 PM
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The only pump gun I ever owned that was not an 870 was a Browning BPS. It was beautiful but for all intents and purposes it was a single shot. Only gun in my 57 years I ever sold. My Wingmaster I got for Christmas when I was 12. Thousands of rounds later it is still going strong. I replaced the BPS with an 870 Special Field with a 21 inch full choke barrel. Kicks like a mule but is a turkey killing machine. Good luck with whatever you choose.


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Old 09-28-2018, 01:22 PM
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"What? Here we are on the Smith & Wesson Forum and no one has mentioned the S&W models? No, not the 916, but the 1000P."

One of my six pump shotguns is an S&W 916 in 12 gauge, basically a re-branded Noble. I bought one in sorry condition (but mechanically OK) very cheaply at a garage sale about 20 years ago and refinished both the wood and metal. It has only one choke (modified) but that's fine with me. I still use it for hand-thrown clays. It fits my anatomy better than any other pump gun in my stable and I cannot say anything bad about it.
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Old 09-28-2018, 02:09 PM
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There are so many ways to go on this from cheaper than the shotguns you mentioned to more expensive to skeet guns to upland game guns to squirrel blasters all with your choice of finish and stock material. People dog synthetic stocks because they aren't as appealing visually as wood but they are MORE functional. I've had fine walnut stocks warp and become useless for anything besides a table lamp.

Benelli’s pump shotguns are good. So are the NEF Pardners that are essentially clones of the 870 except for a few key differences to avoid copyright claims. Not one thing wrong with those. You need to give us an idea what kind of shotgun you want.
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Old 09-28-2018, 02:28 PM
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does anyone have any have any recommendation besides Remington or Mossberg?

thanks
Mainly going to use for hunting, dove, deer, turkey, quail
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Old 09-28-2018, 03:05 PM
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The 870 is my favorite pump gun. Much more than the Winchester Model 12's I own for collecting purposes. But if I had to go with something other than an 870, it would probably be a Browning BPS. They're well made guns.
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Old 09-28-2018, 03:48 PM
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I would certainly go after an older gun. Remington 870, Winchester M12, and the Browing BPS. The Ithica 37 is nice too. I am not sure about the others, but I think you can get a slug bbl for an 870. Your hunting choices suggest different choke needs, and as much as I hate them, you may need choke tubes.

I have not hunted upland in years, so I do not know if there is a steel shot requirement, beyond just migratory birds, but putting steel through a gun not designed for it will stretch your choke for you
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Old 09-28-2018, 10:03 PM
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A turkey gun is actually different from a quail gun. To me that's the beauty of the 870 platform. It's easy to buy barrels to change from HD to heavy load turkey round barrel to slug guns to bird shot for quail. A basic 870 will shoot 2 3/4" shells or 3" shells and there's a wide variety of rounds available in those two lengths. Not all shotguns will shoot both those sizes. You can buy a Super Magnum 870 but from what I've heard a 3" shell will kill a turkey just fine. The 870 is a very versatile gun. That isn't true of most shotguns. That's a big reason they are as popular as they are.

One thing I would suggest is that if you want to hunt quail you may want to consider a semi-auto. If you jump a covey of quail it's much easier to get more than one bird with a semi-auto. Everything else would be easy with a pump.
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Old 09-28-2018, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by hillbillydruggist View Post
Mainly going to use for hunting, dove, deer, turkey, quail
The Model 12 is an excellent shotgun, however, extra barrels have to be hand fitted and indexed. And if your limited to steel shot some of the earlier barrels wouldn’t be suitable. The advantage to the 870/500 is that barrels are fully interchangeable. A 26” or 28” for upland and a 21”-24” for turkey/deer and you’re set. I’d look for an older Wingmaster. It will be about the same price as a new Express and cycle so much better.
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Old 09-29-2018, 03:38 AM
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I've looked at the Winchester M-12 repros made in Japan by Miroku. They've been imported by both Browning and by Winchester. I'd prefer a Winchester-marked one, if only because the original was a Winchester.

These are well made guns, equivalent to higher grade original M-12's. Some are quite ornate, with engraving and gold-filled inlays. Superb stock wood, too. The only thing between me and one of them is money. They're not inexpensive. My fixed income budget is, alas.

My only shotgun is a Rem 870, one of the fancy ones with computer-cut engraving, gold trigger, and nice checkering.
But you don't want Remington, and in a new gun, I understand that. Their QC has problems.

Don't know if the resurrected Ithaca M-37 is still with us, but most gunsmiths worthy of the name can work on an Ithaca and parts are around. The Remington M-31, if still in nice shape, is really slick. Gun writer Don Zutz told me he preferred it to the Winchester M-12, and Don really knew shotguns. He wrote a couple of books on them.

If I had the bucks, I'd get the Miroku-made M-12. Or find an older (but nice) 870.

The BPS has been mentioned. I had one briefly as a writer's loan gun from Browning. I liked it, although not having side ejection wasn't my preference. But I can live with it and the overall quality is what one expects from Browning. Mine wasn't quite as slick as an older 870, but it was new and needed wearing-in. It was very sure in operation. And I hit well with it. Don told me it was a bit of a "chugger" alongside a M-12 or M-870. It is a little bulkier than a Remington, but bearable.

I don't grasp why one member here posted that the BPS was a one-shot gun. Did his jam?

You should probably buy Elmer Keith's, Shotguns, revised edition, which includes the Rem. M-1100. It's somewhat dated, but a fine education in classic shotguns.

Steel shot is a fixture in modern life, and if you need it, get a modern gun. I THINK those Miroku M-12's will take steel shot okay. Ask the importers.

Might you consider an auto?

If you have to settle for a fixed choke gun,
I'd choose Imp. Cylinder, but if most of your shots are longer, a Modified choke works best.
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Old 09-29-2018, 05:40 AM
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Love my DP12. Made in the USA. Two shots..then pump. Two more shots etc. 16 round capacity.Recoil device in the stock works wonders.100 rounds and it won't leave a bruise. Very fun at Sporting Clays. Really..!

The traditionalists hate me. I understand why...BUT..this thing flat out works.

Smooth as a model 12.Never jams (in 5k rounds and counting) and not fussy about ammo at all.

They also hate my Eotech 512 sight. Makes shooting like playing a video game. (not that I play video games..)

I'm thinking of getting a Chiappa Rhino as a companion gun....Ha!

Hey..you wanted "different" options....

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Old 09-29-2018, 06:23 AM
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Winchester does not make the Mod 12 anymore they make the "Super X Pump SXP" I bought one two years ago for waterfowl hunting and could never get use to the action. It makes follow up shots more difficult for me. Watch a video or shoot one It very seldom gets parole out of lockup "gun safe" I went back to the "meat gun" an old Remington WM 870. I have shot the Benelli Nova but, never could get use to it either.
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:59 AM
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Love my DP12. Made in the USA. Two shots..then pump. Two more shots etc. 16 round capacity.Recoil device in the stock works wonders.100 rounds and it won't leave a bruise. Very fun at Sporting Clays. Really..!

The traditionalists hate me. I understand why...BUT..this thing flat out works.
Smooth as a model 12.Never jams (in 5k rounds and counting) and not fussy about ammo at all.


They also hate my Eotech 512 sight. Makes shooting like playing a video game. (not that I play video games..)

I'm thinking of getting a Chiappa Rhino as a companion gun....Ha!

Hey..you wanted "different" options....

Rare gun - TWO shots per pump? Can someone explain how that works please?
Tks
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:04 AM
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I have a "new" Ithaca model 37. It has the choke tubes. I bought this gun about 10 years ago. It has been an excellent gun. That said the local dealer has quit carrying them and I am not sure what the company's health is like now.

I also have my grandfather's Model 12 Winchester. Three generations of hunters used this gun and it is still a good shooter.

If I were looking now, I would be looking hard at the Browning BPS.
I have always liked the look of the Ithaca 37, I thought I remember reading that there was a period of low quality control on the re-introduction of the model?
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:15 AM
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"Rare gun - TWO shots per pump? Can someone explain how that works please?
Tks"

Not really rare..although the gold model shown is an expensive variant and not many sold..although I do have my eyes on one..


The DP-12 (double barrel,pump action, 12 gauge) is basically two pump action guns made as one weapon. It functions much like the Ithica model 37 as it discharges empties straight down,and is just as smooth and trouble free. It has 18.5" barrels and overall length is about 40",so pretty short compared to anything but a SBS (short barrel shotgun)
50 state legal..and actually fun to shoot! No..I won't be giving up my over/under but I do enjoy my DP12 enough to buy a second one...and find myself reaching for it when heading off for practice. To be proficient with any firearm..one must actually SHOOT it.

Just heading out for a round of Sporting Clays...
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:31 AM
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I have always liked the look of the Ithaca 37, I thought I remember reading that there was a period of low quality control on the re-introduction of the model?
I had heard that as well. My sample set is 1, the gun I own. It has been flawless. That said, I would be concerned about Ithaca making enough guns to be solvent these days.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:28 AM
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I bought the BPS when I was in my twenties. It had a selector switch on it. Either it was defective or a much younger me was too dumb to figure it out. Either way I lost faith in it. My brother thought he could figure it out so I sold it to him at a considerable loss. Should have sent it back but I wanted a three inch magnum before hunting season. Went back to what I was used to. Never regretted getting the 870 Special Field. It has served me well for 30 years.


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Old 09-29-2018, 09:35 AM
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I personally wouldn't buy Rem or Moss. I don't know what you
want it for or how much you want to spend. A good used gun will cost as much or a little more than these two. The used market is
full of pump shotguns This shows the state that quality has fallen
to, when 870 & Moss pumps are considered top shelf. My honest
opinion is that a Sears & Roebuck pump model, made by High Standard is the best value on the market. These are well made
and durable shotguns and can be had at bargan prices. Often less
than $200.

The $99 imports and low end models of Rem & Moss have run the
single barrel shot gun into extinction. I have had several Chinese
and Turkish pumps that I took on trade. I would consider them all
junk and would rather have a good single barrel. So as far as me
buying new, I wouldn't. There are thousands of gently used guns
on used market that can be had for reasonable prices.
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Old 10-02-2018, 07:48 PM
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Ithaca m-37 or Browning BPS
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drm50 View Post
I personally wouldn't buy Rem or Moss. I don't know what you
want it for or how much you want to spend. A good used gun will cost as much or a little more than these two. The used market is
full of pump shotguns This shows the state that quality has fallen
to, when 870 & Moss pumps are considered top shelf. My honest
opinion is that a Sears & Roebuck pump model, made by High Standard is the best value on the market. These are well made
and durable shotguns and can be had at bargan prices. Often less
than $200.

The $99 imports and low end models of Rem & Moss have run the
single barrel shot gun into extinction. I have had several Chinese
and Turkish pumps that I took on trade. I would consider them all
junk and would rather have a good single barrel. So as far as me
buying new, I wouldn't. There are thousands of gently used guns
on used market that can be had for reasonable prices.
I don't know many people who consider Remington 870's and Mosssberg 500 series shotguns top shelf. If they do it's only because they haven't been around real quality.

Me, I grew up on a trap range. We literally had the only one for 100 miles in any direction and it was right in our back yard. There were people that came there that would consider a High Standard a low budget shotgun in every way.

People brought shotguns they paid thousands of dollars for to our house. It was 1961 and 1962 when we had the trap machine. They were rare at the time. Dad kept it for a couple of seasons then sold it. He bought it to impress his bosses at work who were big into quail hunting and it worked too. They came to our house to practice for shooting quail.

The really expensive shotguns weren't shot. They were there to look at. They would leave them on our kitchen table where I got to look at them and handle them as long as I followed one simple rule - don't touch the metal for any reason. I was 5 years old and I was drooling over some of the most expensive shotguns made. Some cost as much as $3500 and that was in 1961 dollars. Multiply that by 10 for today's prices.

So whatever shotgun you look at remember there's always a better one around. They get to be so good and so expensive that you might as well have an 870 because you can shoot it without worrying about it. Lots of people shot single shot shotguns in fact. And there was a thing where if you were quail hunting everyone expected you to have a single shot, break down shotgun. They expected you to walk with it broke down so no one ended up getting shot if the guy down the line fell down.

The point of all this is that value is relative. Personally I like 870's even though I have no delusions that it's the best shotgun made. Not even close. But it works and it doesn't cost a fortune. That was always what made the 870 popular. Remington undercut the prices of Winchester in particular and sold an entry level shotgun - the 870.

Today we see clones of the 870 coming from China. I've had two of them. I still have one. I gave one to my daughter's boyfriend. Both have always worked flawlessly. They may not be beautiful but isn't the real point whether they will go bang when you pull the trigger and then send buckshot into a reasonable pattern at the target? Because they have both worked perfectly in that regard. Yes they were cheap. That doesn't make them bad shotguns. It just makes them inexpensive shotguns. They are actually made by Norinco. Remington saw them as such a threat they bought the factory where they are made. Now instead of being sold as Norinco brand shotguns they are sold as NEF shotguns, which ic another brand owned by Freedom Group.

I just don't see how you can get better than "works every time". They aren't hard to operate. They don't jam. And they shoot a good pattern. If what you want is a shotgun that works they are a great choice. FWIW you can get a Mossberg 500 for just a little more money and those are also fine shotguns. It's like buying a Marlin 60 .22. It's cheap but it works well. And because of that they have sold way north of 10 million of them. People like inexpensive stuff that works. Not everyone is a collector. And BTW I don't see any prices on High Standards that come close to the price of those Chinese shotguns where I live. And I've looked at a lot of guns at gun shops in the used racks and at flea markets etc.. Used shotguns are not cheap here. A Wingmaster from their classic period sells for $500 or more. It's because you can only hunt deer with slugs or that was the law. You can hunt with smooth bore rifles now but I've never seen even one of those in a local shop.

Last edited by C J; 10-03-2018 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:33 AM
Drm50 Drm50 is offline
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What state has smooth bore rifles? That's a new one on me. The
only smooth bore rifles I've ever seen were 22s made for shot
cartridges and older guns for 44 shot loads. There is no comparison between a fine 0/U or SxS shotgun and assembly line
guns of stamped parts. That's not even apples & oranges. Before
the demise of milled guns Moss was one step above the bottom.
Nobel had the honors of that. The Savage/Stevens line wasn't
very popular because they were prone to breakage. Hi-Std line
wasn't bottom shelf. They were priced about same as Rem. I see
more HI-Std guns with Sears & Roebuck branding than under their own label. That is with the exception of their fine 22 target
pistols. Now the Moss line has taken over the market. It's buyers
market and new generation wants tactical stuff.
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:25 AM
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I don't know where the OP is located but around here (central VA) there is a preponderance of available used shotguns, mostly Winny 12's and Ithaca 37's, and the best part is that $500 will get you a 90% M37 and maybe +$100 for a 90% Winchester 12.

Those are LGS prices so private sales can be had for a lot less.

My Ithaca Model 37 (1962) was my first and only pump gun (12Ga. - 30" bbl - Full choke) and I always liked the bottom eject. It will reach out there if you have to.

I haven't been afield in several years, but the Ithaca has and never failed to satisfy. I don't know much about steel shot which I agree is now a way of life, but the bore on mine is still just as shiny as it was in 1962, and the muzzle precision mics at 0.697" same as my 1953 Stevens left bbl (Full) and both guns have seen their fair share of duck blind, white-tail, sporting clays and High/Low House duty.

Obviously your money, your decision, but there is really something satisfying about real wood and blued steel.
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Old 10-03-2018, 01:43 PM
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"I don't know many people who consider Remington 870's and Mosssberg 500 series shotguns top shelf. If they do it's only because they haven't been around real quality. "

I don't believe that anyone would consider the Rem 870 and the Mossberg 500 series as being "Top Shelf." But they are reliable and for the great majority of hunters they will check all the boxes at a relatively modest price. If they didn't, they wouldn't have lasted for so long.
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Old 10-07-2018, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
"I don't know many people who consider Remington 870's and Mosssberg 500 series shotguns top shelf. If they do it's only because they haven't been around real quality. "

I don't believe that anyone would consider the Rem 870 and the Mossberg 500 series as being "Top Shelf." But they are reliable and for the great majority of hunters they will check all the boxes at a relatively modest price. If they didn't, they wouldn't have lasted for so long.
That's why I have an 870. I never said anyone did believe the 870 or 500 were the best BTW. I was actually saying no one did unless they were just badly uninformed. I have actually seen a few people say that but not many and not for a long time. There are people who think a lot of guns are best when they are nowhere near the best.
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Old 10-07-2018, 05:03 PM
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My recommendation is Steven Model 320 Savage 12 Ga. Pump Shotgun.
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Old 10-07-2018, 10:20 PM
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I like my KSG.....
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Old 10-08-2018, 03:03 AM
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I have 4 Remington 870's all on the Wngmaster frame. First 12 guage shotgun I bought was the deerslayer with the fancy pistol grip stock and checkering, the next two were strickely gun show purchases. two police turn in Remingtons. Both were covered in rust. Took them apart one by one and with some CLP and some 4/0 (0000) steel wool had them looking very nice only one had some light pitting. One is a 18" barrel and theother is a 20" barrel. Had to stone the section of the receiver where the back end of the barrel goes. Stoned and polished. Had both at the range and performed beautifully. The burrs were caused by not having the mag tube cap not being tightened all the way. This allowed the barrel extension to slam into its recess in the receiver. The 4th is a el cheapo version of the 870 as when I bought it cost was about $210. Birch or beech stock and sand blasted finish then blued. Used it to hunt squirrels. cannot remember the name although it is a Remington. Have had the first one and its about 40 or so years old. So outside of that they all do what they were designed to.Frank
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