Lately I've been noticing a lot of AR pistols for sale around here. I'm beginning to like the idea. I really like the looks of one. Especially when decked out with Magpul furniture and a blade stock. I'm sorta gettin' an itch here and I'd like to know what the group here thinks about them.

Many years ago when I was a young troop in Uncle Sam's Green Machine, my issue weapon for a while was a M3 Grease Gun. I really liked it. So the idea of a sub-gun sized weapon has a certain appeal to me.

However, I think I'd prefer one in a pistol caliber. Either 9mm or .45acp. Being a 1911 type guy and with my previous experience with the M3, I'm leaning toward something in .45acp. I'm also a reloader, so ammo cost isn't really a decisive factor here. I've also heard that firing the 5.56 out of such a short barrel has a really nasty muzzle flash and is extremely loud. So another reason to go with a pistol caliber. However, there are several listed locally in 5.56 at what seem to be reasonable prices. So maybe I shouldn't rule them out?

Also, it doesn't necessarily have to be a AR platform. Just something in that basic size and pistol type configuration. So I am open to suggestions.

I've done a bit of checking around the web. PSA is currently out of everything in pistol calibers. Other guns often sell for $1000+. I don't want to spend that kind of money on what will pretty much be a range toy. So I'm open to suggestions.

So tell me, what are your experiences with the AR type pistols? The good, bad and ugly? Caliber choices? Accuracy at say 100 yards? Worth it or a waste of money?

BTW: there's a gun show here next weekend. I'd like to know what to look for or even if I should bother looking.

I've got a 7 1/2".. 223/5.56 runs like a champ. Good for clearing a house and 100 yard accurate.

add: It has a Noveske Flaming Pig.. eats up that muzzle flash..

When they got popular a year and a half ago (maybe more?) my buddy built a 10.5" 5.56 and I thought the entire idea was ridiculous. I figured "oh yes, it'll be horrendously loud, serious muzzle blast, shorter everything means you won't be able to shoot it nearly as well as any rifle... WHY?!"

He got it to the range and we ran it. Everything I suspected was true EXCEPT that the whole package was just much more than the expected sum of it's parts. It seems to me that if you needed an AR for defense, you'd be using it for 50 yards or less, and what you gain is a far more maneuverable and handy, useable setup.

For my needs, the fact that the BATFE currently okays the use of a pistol brace shouldered (as long as it isn't altered in any way) is a major reason I like it. The obvious pitfall with that is that it isn't LAW, and the BATFE can change their minds as the winds blow.

I bought and built mine, and I ran it HARD to test it. Then I zeroed it. It's not something I'll use for entertainment but it's definitely ready for use as a tool.

I have a 10 1/2 upper in 5.56, I only use it with a suppressor, which when attached makes it as long as a 16 inch barrel would , and with the velocity loss i dont think it makes sense. But it was cheap and looks cool.

I also have a 9mm and 300 Black Out uppers, at 8 and 12 inches respectively, those seem to me to be more practical.

I would suggest since you are a handloaded, you might find a 300 Black Out upper very practical and they generally are less expensive than pistol caliber uppers.

The only difference between a 5.56 AR is the barrel, and maybe a different buffer set up.

All of the above are more accurate than I am

Look at the Just Right Carbine (JRC) web site they have pistol caliber AR pistol
style I have a JRC carbine I"am happy with it.

I went to a heavier buffer to slow the action, at first it left brass shredded in the chamber locking lugs. Now all good.

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Just buy a stripped lower and build your own. Don't know how? I'm sure there's plenty of videos on line.

I like them. Buy or build one. If you don't like it or use it, sell it.

IMO, it's a way to go SBR without the paperwork, $200 stamp and restrictions. Or in a State that doesn't allow SBR's (in most States, they're viewed as a handgun).

I'm not a fan of the brace (although I have them on some builds & they've gotten better), I usually use the Thordsen cheek rests. If you use a tight sling wrapped around your body and a cheek rest (or cheek a brace), it makes for a pretty stable platform.

You have a lifetime to buy, try, keep, or sell whatever you want (unless the laws change). Take advantage of it.

Here's one of mine with cheek rest.



Here's a 300 BLK.



9mm



Zenith MP5k PDW (actually a registered AOW due to FPG)

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Watch & Pray

Is the 450 Bushmaster still a thriving option? I wonder how that'd be out of an 8"-10" barrel?

Edit to add that I absolutely hate it if I go to an indoor range and there's a short barreled 5.56 next door. I leave!

I just finished this one last week it's a .300 blackout. The other two I've built were both 9mm. All three were just built using a striped lower and a pile of parts. The .300 is a little cheaper to build because of commonalty with 5.56 parts.

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I have been toying with idea of one in either 5.56 or .300 and will build the lower with parts that I want. As for an upper unit, I am partial to Palmetto as their parts have been good for me as well as the prices. Only must have is a flash can as I have seen the muzzle flash videos and can imagine the muzzle blast would be something in tight quarters. Either way I probably would go with lighter, varmint type bullets for self defense and FMJ for range/ plinking.

I almost bought one of the new HKs because the AR platform’s goofy buffer tube makes it too large and cumbersome for a “pistol.” After much deliberation I came to the conclusion that using one of my Glocks with a 33 round magazine served the same purpose and it’s actually a pistol.

5.56 is the SWAT round of choice these days..... but for decades (since the 70s) it was the 9mm out of a H&K MP-5..........

I've thought about a AR "Pistol" but to tell the truth I'm happy with my Beretta CX-4 Carbine in 9mm.... it uses the same magazines as my Beretta pistols (Centurion) ( 15-30rds factory and Mec-gar) and as set up it is 3" shorter than a AR with the stock collapsed.

As a PDW it is capable of fast, fist size double and triple taps out to 50yds..... ..... single "head shots" with the red dot are almost too easy...... 16 inch barrel gives 1250-1490 fps and 420 to+600 ft-lb of energy ( Ballistics by the Inch)

And at the range it's a hoot to shoot.......................

They can be had up in .45acp.

a couple of my recent 5.56mm pistol builds

I've build a couple, and they are really practical for a house rifle. My next one will be in .300, as that round is designed to be fired from a short barrel. Heavy subsonic rounds will be my ammunition of choice!

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Even older, even crankier....

Doesn't a vertical foregrip make these AOWs?

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On the whistle draw and fire 6

Not if it's over 26".

My Zenith MP5k above is a registered AOW.

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Watch & Pray

Not really an AR style and not cheap, but I went with the 9mm Sig MPX with folding brace and then applied for a tax stamp to SBR it. Great home defense and fun range rifle.

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Get off my lawn!

I have the big brother to the MPX the MCX(pistol). Was able to get one of the dual caliber models when they first hit the market. SBR'd it and added a suppressor and it is a fun one to shoot. Subsonic 300BO is a hoot.

I've got an AERO upper/lower in 10.5 inch, BA barrel, SBM wrist brace, BCM trigger and Magpul flip up sights. I bought it as a compliment to my Spikes/BA 18" barrel, scoped "varmint" gun. Two is one, one is none philosophy...

Lots of noise, huge fireball. Good times.

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Isaiah 41:10

Take a look at the AR platform, pistol format in 9mm. Lots of people like that combination

A "Flash Can" makes the muzzle blast and noise manageable. Think of a flash can as a solid flash suppressor/muzzle brake that directs everything up and to the side, a flash can forces everything forward and away from the shooter. I think they make a HUGE difference.

The draw back is a little more recoil, but the recoil is already minimal.

And they're pretty cheep - like $30 bucks cheap. KAK and Guntec are the two that I own/use.

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Thread Killer.

I like mine. I'm $330 into it with the BUIS and it's a hoot. If you're going to get one, snag a PSA kit and a stripped lower now. I'm trying to stay away from buying more ARs but there's going to be a time soon where many of us will look back and wish we'd bought cheap.

I have two "AR-9s". One is a 10.5" Rock River Arms pistol, with a brace added to it after the ATF amended it's ruling and determined that the mere use of a firearm did not define it's category. The 10.5" designation is a bit inaccurate as it's based on the overall length of the 10.5" barrel pistol in 5.56mm.
However, since the AR-9 is blow back operated, there's no need for locking lugs on the bolt or a barrel extension on the end of the barrel. Consequently, the bolt face on an AR-9 is at the front of what would be the start of the bolt carrier on a 5.56mm AR, so a "10.5" AR-9 barrel really measures about 11.25" from muzzle to bolt fac.

My other AR-9 is a 16" 9mm carbine that started life as a PSA factory gun, but ended up with a Ballistics Advantage barrel and an RRA upper receiver. ( I was not impressed with the accuracy or stability of the PSA barrel.)

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The change in the ATF position on braces was important. If the old interpretation that holding a brace on an AR-15 pistol against your shoulder made it rifle had bene upheld and extended, it would have also meant that shooting your 1911, or pretty much any other pistol or revolver with a two hand grip would have made them a "rifle", since pistols and revolvers are designed so that they can be fired with one hand.

The ATF screw up was in initially allowing braces to be installed at all, and once that horse was out of the barn they couldn't really stop it.

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With that in mind, absent additional legislation banning them, braced pistols are here to stay and they offer a number of advantage over a short barrel rifle (SBR). There is no tax stamp requirement. $200 for the stamp isn't that big a deal, but the fact that you may be waiting the better part of a year is a major inconvenience. Also, many states do not allow SBRs, so you are limited in the places you can own them and take them. You also have to have ATF permission to take them to another state, and while you can fill out a form for each state and have start and end dates that are up to one year apart, it's still a process you have to complete in advance, and at least once a year, and then wait for approval. Finally, may states have concealed carry permits that are restricted to handguns only so while you can carry a loaded brace equipped pistol in your truck under a concealed carry permit, you can't do that in some states with an SBR.

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I'm in agreement with the OP that I prefer my AR pistols to be in 9mm Para.

The 5.56x45 round is obnoxiously loud in even a 10" barrel, and depending on the load, you're looking at 2300-2500 fps in a 10.5" barrel, which is well below the 2700 fps threshold where 5.56mm bullets stop tumbling on impact.

In contrast, you can launch 115 gr 9mm bullet at around 1500 fps in a 10.5 barrel and at nearly 1600 fps in a 16" barrel. That's not stellar performance by rifle standards, but it's impressive for a pistol round and gives a 9mm "pistol" an effective range of around 200 yards. I get a least 2 MOA 100 yard accuracy from both of my AR-9s with Hornady 115 gr XTP or 115 gr HAP bullets and the ballistic advantage barrel shoots a bit under 1.5 MOA at 100 yards with those loads.

There are however a few things to consider when building a 9mm AR. It's a blow back operated system, so the recoil won't be a light a you'd think, and the buffer selection is critical.

Weight wise you'll see a lot of arguments but heavier buffers will increase the delay before the bolt come back out of battery which means lower chamber pressures and less stress on the brass. Some folks will run a 5.5 oz buffer with a carbine spring. Others will run a buffer as heavy as 10 or 11 oz. I prefer a heavy 10 to 11 oz buffer, in large part because I'm using loads tailored for the longer 10.5" pistol barrel and 16" carbine barrel with higher velocities. A 115 gr load at 1500-1600 fps will start battering the gun if you're not using a heavy enough buffer.

A buffer with free weights in it will also help stop bolt bounce when the bolt comes forward again.

In either case, you'll want to use a dedicated pistol buffer, or use a spacer to reduce the travel. If you do not, the buffer will get a running start and fairly quickly break the bolt stop if you have an AR-9 set up with a bolt hold open device. Four quarters inserted in the buffer tube underneath the spring will work as a spacer if you are not running a pistol buffer.



There are two major categories of AR-9s. The first use the traditional modified Uzi style "Colt" pattern magazine.

Below on the right is a factory standard Colt pattern magazine with the square notch for the magazine catch. These magazines are extruded and the ridge at the back houses a tab on the follower that rises to lift the bolt stop and hold the bolt open after the last round.

On the left is a modified Uzi magazine. You can see the notch milled into the magazine above the thinner notch for the Uzi's magazine catch. These are folded steel magazines that are tack welded at the rear. They have the same ridge, but it's double metal with no internal space for a tab on the follower. These magazines were (and still are to some extent) very cheap to buy and work great, even though they won't operate a bolt hold open device. The steel is also very hard and I found I had to spot anneal them to be able to mill the new notch in them easily.



The second type of AR-9 uses Glock pattern magazines. These magazines are easier to load and are common to 9mm Glock pistols, so if you shoot a 9mm Glock you can share magazines. They tend to be less expensive, but they do not offer a bolt hold open option (or at least one that works well to date).

These differences contribute to the difference in opinion on buffers. Glock pattern AR-9 shooters who do not use a bolt hold open device don't see the need for a heavier buffer, particularly, if they shoot the same '9mm "pistol" loads in both Glock pistols and AR-9 pistols.

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There are also two approaches to 9mm AR lowers. There are dedicated AR-9 lowers, like the RRA above, that use a lower specifically milled for a 9mm magazine. There are also standard AR-15 lowers that use an adapter that is inserted into the standard AR-15 magazine well. There are some variations but they generally fall into two types - those that install from the top, which are usually held in place by the bolt stop, and those that are installed from the bottom that are usually held in place by set screws.

The adapters can be expensive and cost almost as much or more than a dedicated lower, so which is more cost effective, depends a bit on what adapter you choose, and how cheaply you can get a lower receiver. Even then an $80 lower and an adapter can cost as much as a dedicated 9mm lower.

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Regardless of what you buy, to be a legal pistol it has to be purchased as a "pistol" or "other" lower, and it can not be assembled as a rifle at any point. Once it's been assembled as a rifle, it is legally a rifle and can never be legally re-assembled as a pistol. That's not very easy to enforce, unless of course a shooter owns a single AR rifle lower receiver but has both AR pistol and AR rifle uppers. ATF will see that as constructive intent to build an illegal SBR.

It's a bit strange however as you can have a pistol with any length barrel, so I can put my 16" AR "rifle" upper on my AR pistol lower and it's still a pistol. But if I put my AR rifle lower on my 10.5" pistol upper, it's now an illegal SBR. Similarly, if I mounted a rifle or carbine stock on my AR-pistol, it's now and illegal SBR if the 10.5" upper is installed. And, if I put a rifle or carbine stock on my pistol lower and then installed my rifle upper on it, it is now a legal rifle, but I could never legally re-assemble it as a pistol.

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There have been .45 ACP AR pistols made from time to time, as well as some attempts to make a gas operated 9mm AR from time to time. Both have their share of problems and you can find people that make both, but they are mostly custom made or very short production run firearms and are expensive.

There are some advantages to a gas operated 9mm AR in terms of reduced recoil, but that's really only a significant benefit if you are going to use it on a full auto lower receiver. Personally, I like the simplicity of the gas operated design.

I did some experiments with a couple different designs including the KAK.

I found with my 10.5" AR 9 pistol that I got 117 dB at the shooters ear with a standard bird cage flash hider, and I got the same numbers with the flash cans.

The good news is that 117 dB is quiet for a 9mm, the bad news is that the flash cans made zero difference.

That said, it's possible you might see more effect with the higher pressure 5.56mm round, but I really doubt it. Why? Because if they actually did reduce the sound level the ATF would be all over them and insist they be registered Class III items, just like the moderator used on the 10" XM177E1 and the 11.5" XM 1777E2, which reduced the sound level on those carbines to the same level as the 20" AR-15/M16, which is by no means quiet.

I'm amazed the ATF let the MCX Rattle pistol be sold as a pistol rather than as an SBR. The three position brace and the short barrel make it about as close as it gets to a production "SBR". without requiring a tax stamp.

I'll say that I have a 4.5" AR pistol...and it's ok. It's very simple and with decent ammo, very reliable.



It's loud as all get out and I imagine the velocity loss from that short barrel is insane. If you actually tried to use it in your home, I'm not kidding when I say you will probably do serious, permanent hearing damage.

I wanted a 9mm AR but they're tricky unless you buy specific parts and those parts are costly, so I went .223/5.56. Had the CZ Scorpion EVO existed back when I got the pistol, I would definitely gone that route instead.

Lee, here is my colt in 9mm. come up and shoot it with me some time. lee

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VFW, NRA, VVA, S&WCA 1758

I have a 7.5" in .223 and really love it. It works perfectly and is super easy to shoot well. It has a Vortex flash suppressor that does a great job, even in a dark range. Photo below.

I chose a .223 because I wanted to shoot the same caliber as my AR rifle. But using it as a house gun made me seriously consider the ammo I would run in it because I didn't want over penetration that might endanger the neighbors. I ended up using ammo containing varmint bullets to reduce over penetration.

Your choice of caliber should be based on what you intend to use the gun for. As a house gun, a pistol caliber would be a good choice.

I'm partial to pistol caliber carbines matched with a handgun that (at least) uses the same ammo and the same magazines. So, philosophically I agree with the concept of owning AR pistols and rifles.

My most memorable range days include a dozen factory magazines loaded with 9mm FMJ (much less expensive to shoot all day than .45 ACP and 5.56), a Beretta Cx4 16" barrel and matching pistol. Excellent performance. Reasonable sound levels with hearing protection. Tons of firepower. Lots of fun for the money and good training.

The blowback bolt on the Cx4, designed for automatic fire, moves with authority but with little felt recoil, particularly compared to rifle-caliber pistols. Other PCC's such as H&K, Kriss, etc., are just as fine as the Beretta though more expensive; but I prefer using identical mags carbine and pistol purchased on a tight budget.

The same weapons with JHP ammo constitute home defense.



The worst day at (public) range: dude blasting away at 7 yards (6m) with rifle-caliber pistol from table next to mine. Even with double ear protection -- -23 dBm ear plugs covered with -30dBm cans -- the sound levels were excessive. The blast waves standing a few feet (1m) away were very uncomfortable, possibly less for the shooter.

Sure enough, AR pistol dude retired after two mags, complaining about high ammo costs as if anybody left at the range could hear.

I landed up using the same flash suppressor, with a stock A2, it was a flamethrower.

I did some reading when it came to defensive ammo and like you, decided on game ammo. I landed up buying Outback Ammo's 55gr -w- Sierra Blitzking projectiles:

.223 REM – 55gr Sierra BlitzKing – Australian Outback

Product - Sierra Bullets - The Bulletsmiths

In a "perfect" world, if I were to us this for home defense, I'd like 300 blk suppressed. Sadly, silencers are 100% no-go in Illinois.

Bingo, I've said it before and I'll say it again, short barrel AR pistols are loud...REALLY loud. I have to wear foamies andcans when I shoot mine or else I get some ringing.

I cannot be more serious when I say that shooting one in a house and with no ear protection would be damaging.

This was going to be my recommendation too. My CX4 is a 9mm, but I would love to have one in 45 acp too, it just costs more to feed. I have 1/2 dozen 30 rd Beretta mags for it and it is pretty darn accurate. I just chase cans & ring steel plates. I'm very happy with it.

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I would like to have a rattler myself but I already spent a mint on the MCX. I think the ATF should remove SBR's from the NFA since they have effectively "legalized" them through the use of the brace and other similar devices. I bought the Diamonback below because of the CQB device it wears from the factory. I like it almost as much as my MCX.

I never said the flash cans reduced anything. What I said was that everything was pushed forward and made tolerable - to me.


Not my video, but judge for yourself:

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Thread Killer.

My bedside gun has always been some flavor of carbine length, 16 inch AR15 rifle.

I just recently built a .300 blackout pistol with a SBA3 pistol brace. Its fantastic. I went with .300 blackout as I dont want to light off a short barrel 5.56 weapon in the house. That is a lot of blast and noise. A LOT.

The .300 blackout pistol shooting Hornady Sub X 190 round expanding ammo is about as loud as a .45ACP pistol.

28 rounds of .300 blackout in a Magpul dedicated 300 blackout magazine, in a short .300 blackout "pistol" is a very acceptable home defense package.

PSA 8.5 inch 300BLK upper on a PSA lower. PA RDS.

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You have to give some thought to ammo: this 10.5" delivers 62-grainers at about 2600 fps and 55-grainers at about 2700 fps. You're talking inside 75 yards if you want any hope of fragmentation of ball rounds - or you can go with HPs or SPs.

One thing that is of interest to me is how much this 10.5" seems like my 14.5" gun when you shoot it: it's not noticeably louder from behind the gun and the flash, recoil and accuracy are fine, too. The enormous difference that takes getting used to is the drop of the bullets - the lower velocity means you need to hold over notably more on distance shots.

I held off on getting one of these for a really long time, but my friends showed me the ballistics charts and sold me on the 10.5" as a viable gun, and then actually shooting a friend's 10.5" pistol made me really interested. I wound up paying under $300 for the base gun ($259.99 for the upper and rest of the kit; $39.99 for the lower receiver to my FFL), delivered. I had to spring for the rear sight (enormous sale at Brownell's - wound up being under $40 delivered for a quality piece) and the optic (SIG Romeo5 for $119.99 delivered from PSA), but I have very little in this thing. And it runs like a top.

And, you know what? I think I like it better than any other AR I've shot. It's handy as all get-out, and I have no problems ringing the steel at 210 yards with it, fast. To my mind, this is the way the gun should have been made in the first place. But what do I know . . . I just like it.

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Now go make God proud...

Here's mine:



It's a PSA FDE kit on a Noreen billet receiver. All together, I have just under $350 in it.

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Thread Killer.

That's the same ammo I'm using. The Australian Outback stuff.

I'm surprised that the Vortex suppressor isn't working for you. I get hardly any flash with every ammo I've tried.

The general rule of thumb is 10.5” for 5.56. 8” for 300k. I’ve been told this by a professional class 3 builder. This is also the general consensus on the AR15 forum. .
I built a PSA 8.5” 300 with rail, flash can, Sig Romeo 5 and adjustable SB3. Also a 7.5” 300 with shockwave brace, A2 and Troy fixed battle sights. Surprisingly I think I like the 7.5 with irons the best.

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Smith & Wesson — and me.

Here's my AR pistol.



It's a cheap ATI Omni Hybrid 7.5 inch 5.56mm. Receivers are polymer. Trigger group is composite. It was very inexpensive. The stock trigger is very light and very smooth despite the low price. It's a definite upgrade over milspec. So far the thing has been completely reliable. It's accurate and fun to shoot. Loud, yes, but it's not uncomfortably so as long as you wear good hearing protection. I use 32DB rated foam plugs, and they're just fine with the pistol.

It does look a little different now. I changed out the brace to an SBA3, and the pistol grip to a Magpul overmolded grip.

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Or something like that . . .

Well since my old thread has been revived, I thought I'd show y'all what I ended up with.

Extar EP9



Its proven to be reliable, accurate and very light. I'm happy with it. Best of all, even with the add-ons and extra mags, I've only got a little over $500 in it.

Click on the link to go to Extar's web page for full details

At my local range, those guys keep blasting away until they are the only ones left. The last time, I was next to a guy with a .308 SBR/pistol with a muzzle brake. I left as quickly as I could pack my bag.

The only reason I have not raised hell to the range owner is I am an RSO and almost always rent my own range when I want to shoot.

That said, I do like the idea of a AR-9 or AK-9 with a brace. They seem like a lot of fun and certainly a improvement on a real pistol for home defense.

May 2019 purchase -
Ruger 556 pistol -
Added - Sig Romeo 5 Red dot; Magpul grip, hand stop, rail guards, back up sights.

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A 7” AR pistol makes a fantastic home defense option.

Something like a Springfield SAINT with BUIS, Aimpoint, and Surefire tac light plus a Magpul 40 round mag loaded with 77gr. OTMs would be an awesome indoor fighting rifle to engage multiple home invaders and could be put in a small case or even book bag for covert extradomestic defensive applications. Much greater fire superiority than any handgun to overmatch any threat. Can lay down suppressive fire support and the 5.56 cartridge is a proven fightstopper with modern loads.

It’s modern advanced options like these that are making the old home defense standby, the 12 gauge shotgun, totally obsolete. A decade or more ago, we couldn’t have dreamed how far the civilian MSR market would go, and these little braced pistols are probably the most practical and useful for everyday self preservation applications.

8.5 300BLK and 7.5 300BLK
It gets a little scary having both 5.56 and 300 BLK ammunition around.

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Smith & Wesson — and me.