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  #1  
Old 10-18-2018, 08:05 PM
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Default Winchester 1894 in 38-55

I hope to have some photos in the next few days. Just finished a deal on a 1894 in 38-55 made in 1914. 26" round barrel with the crescent butt plate. 2 owner gun before me (2nd has had it briefly before he decided to sell it). Bore is nearly mint. External blued finish on the receiver is gone, but the rest of the gun has a nice patina to it. I'm excited to try her out.

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Old 10-18-2018, 08:20 PM
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Looking forward to the pics. I've always found the .38-55 an appealing cartridge. Should be fun to reload for.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:17 PM
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A buddy of mine picked up a 38/55 last year. Early 1900 same gun as OPs.
Gun is about 80-85% exterior, bore like a dime. He put out $1200 for it
and is still crying about it, but won't sell it to me. The extra benifit of it
is that's it is legal deer rifle here in Ohio.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:24 PM
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Outstanding find! Excellent old rifle in a fine caliber. Enjoy it!
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:43 PM
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Paid $750 for her. Hopefully tomorrow time will allow me to get it & take some photos. I looked for a “nickel steel” or smokeless markings before but don’t remember finding any such so I don’t know if by then they were done marking it as so or it’s the prior black powder strength barrel. More info to come.

The fact that it had the mint bore & it’s 38-55 rifle sealed the deal. Any other caliber I would have probably let it go to someone else.

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Old 10-19-2018, 10:20 AM
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I have an 1894 in 38-55 . Mine dates back to 1897 . It has the long , full octagon barrel . I use Lee dies and a Lee mold to cast bullets . I called Accurate Powder Co . for help reloading . Acc 5744 is the ideal powder to duplicate black powder pressures and velocities . Regards, Paul
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:27 PM
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Winchesters from that time period have "Very Generous" bore diameters! Anywhere from .375 to .388 have been encountered. Pure lead and/or hollow base bullets help make up for those loose bores.

I have a 2005 production 1885 Low Wall in 38-55 and loaded 8.0 grains of Trail Boss with current "short" length brass and a coated Bear Creek 255 LFN bullet in .377" and got a ridiculously small groups at 100 yards. Bear Creek makes just about any diameter you can want for this cartridge!

Ivan

ADDED 10/29/18
I have ammo loaded by a friend that passed away. It has .385" bullets and won't even chamber in my rifle, but they were tack drivers in his 1906 produced 1894. (He used AA5744 also!)First load from 11/26/02-16.8 "5744" Oregon Trail bullet, WLR Primer Second. Load from 12-26-98 20.0 "XMP5744" Lyman 375248/249 gr., CCI-200 primer. Third load 35.0 grains "H-335" Lyman 375248/250gr. CCI 200 primer
(Minor warning: Accurate made 5744 with 3 different prefixes at different times, they all seem to use the same data.)

Last edited by Ivan the Butcher; 10-29-2018 at 03:50 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:50 PM
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The nickel steel bbls were made for use in the 'new' smokeless HV cartridges in the 1894,,30-30,,32sp and 25-35.

The 32-40 and 38-55 were bbl'd in the standard low carbon steel of the day for use with BP and also considered safe with the low pressure factory smokeless equiv loads offered.

Winchester did however offer the Nickel Steel bbls in caliber 32-40 and 38-55 as a spcl order item.
These will not usually have the roll stamp Nickel Steel marking on top. But IIRC, the only ID is a small steel supplier marking on the bottom under the forend wood.
'MNS' or 'INS' (Midvale,,or Illingsworth(?) nickel steel.
A factory letter would most likely mention the spcl order bbl steel.

The top side common Nickle Steel roll mark on the Winchester 94 bbls was discontinued all together around #1,03x,0000. Sometime in 1927 or 1928 I think.
But Winchester never seemed to have sharp cut off dates in production changes so most anything can show up later as older parts are used up.
The Winchester collector forums can fill you in on all this stuff quite well and if I posted anything outside the known boundrys..

38-55 is a great cartridge. Originally the Ballard Rifle Co's brainchild of a target round.
Marlin bought Ballard out,,the round became the 38-55 Marlin & Ballard.
Winchester chambered it's rifles in it and it became the 35-55 WCF,,,more popular as that than the original.

The 32-40 is the same story.
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:56 PM
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The Lyman cast bullet handbook recommends .377" bullets but notes that oversized bores may be encountered. It provides recommended loads for both 248 and 268 grain lead bullets in the 6.0 to 7.0 grain range using Red Dot, Green Dot, 700-X, and Unique powders. MVs are in the 1000-1100 ft/sec range. You might even be interested in loading with Pyrodex Rifle powder.

Last edited by DWalt; 10-19-2018 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 10-20-2018, 12:20 AM
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Great info you guys have posted. Here are photos.

Cory
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Old 10-20-2018, 12:21 AM
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More photos

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Old 10-20-2018, 12:23 AM
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and some more

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Old 10-20-2018, 12:25 AM
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Last bunch.

Note the last photo. With the info posted above which aligns with other comments I have read. It appears this is in fact a "nickel steel" barrel.

Cory
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Old 10-20-2018, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
The Lyman cast bullet handbook recommends .377" bullets but notes that oversized bores may be encountered. It provides recommended loads for both 248 and 268 grain lead bullets in the 6.0 to 7.0 grain range using Red Dot, Green Dot, 700-X, and Unique powders. MVs are in the 1000-1100 ft/sec range. You might even be interested in loading with Pyrodex Rifle powder.
Between Pyrodex and true blackpowder, I much prefer the real deal.
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Old 10-20-2018, 08:10 AM
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Nice shape. You would'nt know that she was over 100 years old from looking at the pics.
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Old 10-20-2018, 08:21 AM
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Does anybody have any recommended loads for the .38-55 using Accurate 5744? Their loading data doesn't even list the caliber.

Also for .32-40 would be helpful.

Thx,
Curl
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Old 10-20-2018, 10:15 AM
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Not necessarily reliable, but Quickload calculates that with the Speer Grand Slam 285 grain bullet, 18.0 grains of AA 5744 should produce a 1500 ft/sec MV from a 24" barrel and be well within the SAAMI peak pressure limit. 20 grains takes chamber pressure to very near maximum and produces a MV of 1625 ft/sec. From experience, I have found that Quickload is optimistic when it comes to MV estimations.

I do have an older (2003) AA powder guide which provides some 5744 recipes for the .38/55:

Sierra 200 grain - 23.0 to 25.5 grains, MV = 1705 to 1853 ft/sec
Hornady 220 grain - 21.2 to 23.5 grains, MV = 1516 to 1648 ft/sec
Lead 240 grain - 19.8 to 22.0 grains, MV = 1473 to 1601 ft/sec
Barnes 255 grain - 19.4 to 21.5 grains, MV = 1277 to 1388 ft/sec

For the .32/40, same source:

Lead 170 grain (GC) - 18.0 to 20.0 grains, MV = 1658 to 1802 ft/sec
Hornady 170 grain - 18.0 to 20.0 grains, MV = 1635 to 1777 ft/sec

--------------------------------------------------------------
Note that AA 5744 appears to be the near-ballistic twin to IMR 4227, so you might be able to find some IMR 4227 recipes that would work as well using AA 5744 instead, for both .38/55 and .32/40. IMR 4227 is very underestimated as to its utility. It is superb for use in many of the older calibers, up to .45-70, especially with lead bullets, as well as in magnum handgun loads.

Last edited by DWalt; 10-20-2018 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 10-20-2018, 10:52 AM
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That's a gorgeous rifle. I'd take that home in a heart beat.

I've been looking for a nice Model 94 in 38-55 for awhile. I have a low number (18XX) Big Bore 94 in .375 Win that gets shot almost exclusively with .38-55 hand loads, but I'd love to have a Model 94 rifle or short rifle in .38-55 a condition similar to yours.
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Old 10-20-2018, 11:08 AM
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I looked up my notes from my conversation with Accurate for the 38-55 . Using 5744 powder the load was 18.8-23.5 . Pressure would be 27 cup -30 cup . 19 grs should be around 1500 fps using a 255 gr cast bullet , depending on your gun . Chronographs don't always agree . You results might vary some . In my gun 19 grs was a good load . I had to size my bullets .379 . Hope this helps , Regards, Paul
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Old 10-20-2018, 12:53 PM
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Great ctg.... sadly old Winchester collectors are a small breed today.
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Old 10-20-2018, 01:27 PM
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Default If you got that rifle for 750$.

You pretty much stole it from whoever had it. Nice score!
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Old 10-20-2018, 03:18 PM
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Very nice Winchester.
About 10 years ago I started a "Retro" weekend
at our deer lease. Small cash prize.
No optics. Lever action..or blackpowder only.
Some of the guys have bought/found some great
Old Winchesters.
I am looking for a Win in 44.40
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Old 10-20-2018, 03:35 PM
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My kind of gun, old patinated wood and steel, well cared for with nothing but a little honest wear. It's a pretty piece. You done reaaalll good!
Thanks for the pics...
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Old 10-20-2018, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
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Does anybody have any recommended loads for the .38-55 using Accurate 5744? Their loading data doesn't even list the caliber.

Also for .32-40 would be helpful.

Thx,
Curl
From the 1999 Accurate Powder manual:
5744 powder

38/55

SAECO 240 rn.........22.0 gr........1601fps
SRA 200 fn.............25.5 gr.........1853
Hornady 220 fn.......23.5 gr.........1648

32/40

LYMAN 170 fngc........20 gr.......1802
Hornady 170 fn.........20 gr.......1777

loads listed are considered max and should be reduced by at least 10% to start.
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Old 10-20-2018, 03:38 PM
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I'm about to leave the house to hopefully get some groups on a Model 71, but I'm going to bring this 38-55 along & hopefully get a box of shells to shoot through it. Hoping to get either some factory Winchester stuff or the HSM Cowboy loads. I will report back on how it goes.

I would like to hunt with it, then have it reblued I'm still thinking.

Cory
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Old 10-20-2018, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
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I'm about to leave the house to hopefully get some groups on a Model 71, but I'm going to bring this 38-55 along & hopefully get a box of shells to shoot through it. Hoping to get either some factory Winchester stuff or the HSM Cowboy loads. I will report back on how it goes.

I would like to hunt with it, then have it reblued I'm still thinking.

Cory
I don't know what you paid for it, but generally speaking rebluing will hurt the value.

If you go that route send it off to someone like Turnbull and get it properly restored.

Turnbull Restoration Company, Inc.

However, in my opinion the rifle looks great as it. It shows honest age and use but not rust, pitting or abuse. I'd leave it as in and enjoys shooting what can be a very nice family heirloom.
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Old 10-20-2018, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
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I'm about to leave the house to hopefully get some groups on a Model 71, but I'm going to bring this 38-55 along & hopefully get a box of shells to shoot through it. Hoping to get either some factory Winchester stuff or the HSM Cowboy loads. I will report back on how it goes.

I would like to hunt with it, then have it reblued I'm still thinking.

Cory
I beg you to please reconsider on that. It's beautiful just the way it is. And you can hunt with it to your heart desire. Just keep it well maintained as others before you did.
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Old 10-20-2018, 06:14 PM
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Leaving it as is certainly isn’t out of the question. At some point the first owner removed all the blueing from the receiver.

As far as shooting goes, it’s a ***** cat. At least with the slow Winchester stuff. Very tame compared to the 71.

Cory
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Old 10-20-2018, 09:57 PM
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At 185 yards holding dead on for elevation it rings the gong every time. She shoots to the left so you hold to the right but she’s a shooter with at least the Winchester factory stuff.

Cory
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Old 10-20-2018, 10:13 PM
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Beautiful rifle with great character, and I am terribly, terribly envious.
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Old 10-21-2018, 10:09 AM
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..... At some point the first owner removed all the blueing from the receiver.

.....

The 92 and 94 recv'rs of that period are noted for having their factory blue flake off with very little wear and handling.

The bluing process was a Carbonia Blue, and along with the steel alloy used in the frames seemed to be the problem with these rifles.

Someone may have helped the frame loose the rest of it's factory finish blue after looking at a blotchy patchwork of blue and bright steel on the frame. It does look a bit gone over lightly with something like scotchbrite perhaps. But it certainly didn't harm any edges, corners or other details.
The heat blue is still present on the extractor dispite the blue finish gone on the bolt. Since they are 'polished as one' parts and fit to one another perfectly flat,,that'd be tough to remove the bluing on the bolt w/o touching the extractor unless it was taken apart to do.

But it is not unusual to see them just like this,,the frame devoid of blue while the rust blued bbl and mag tube still retain their orig finish.
The hammer, lever & usually the F/E tip were orig color case hardened.

>It's also possible the orig finish on the frame was Color Case Hardening.
That would have been a special order finish.
Take the stock off and see if there are any remnants of the orig colors on the metal under the wood or inside the action that may give you a clue.
Case colors fade and can be removed quite easily from the outside surfaces leaving the bright steel look.

A factory letter would tell you what the orig finish was.
If you are going to have it re-done,,you might as well have it restored as original as far as finish goes instead of just having another re-blued Winchester.

Personally, I'd leave it alone and keep it as it is.
Unless you want to make a full blown upgrade (XXX wood, checkering, factory style engraving pattern, ect) of the 1894.,,It won't be an original Hi-Grade,,but you can have whatever you want.
*Mark it as such and market it as such if resold.*
Even then, you have no control over what is done with it and how it's sold once it leaves your hands.
Some sad stories out there for sure.
That's coming from someone that's been in the engraving, restoration biz for just under 50yrs.
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Old 10-21-2018, 11:37 AM
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/….

>It's also possible the orig finish on the frame was Color Case Hardening.
That would have been a special order finish.
Take the stock off and see if there are any remnants of the orig colors on the metal under the wood or inside the action that may give you a clue.
Case colors fade and can be removed quite easily from the outside surfaces leaving the bright steel look.

A factory letter would tell you what the orig finish was.
If you are going to have it re-done,,you might as well have it restored as original as far as finish goes instead of just having another re-blued Winchester.../
I also considered that it may have had a color case hardened finish, especially when I looked at the forend tip.

I've seen some Wichesters where the color case hardened finish faded and wore to the point it looked almost like a very worn nickel finish.
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Old 10-21-2018, 04:38 PM
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2152hq & BB57,

I have wondered about the case hardening on the butt plate, fore end cap myself. I can’t decide if that’s patina or case hardening on there. I’m hoping for case hardening. She looks so good the more I think about it the more I want to leave her as is.

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Old 10-21-2018, 04:48 PM
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Beautiful rifle. I'd have to carry it with me all the time.
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:22 PM
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Highhawk1948,

I couldn't agree more that nothing carries as easy as a lever action. So natural & great balance. I said the same thing about my 1886 rifle.

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Old 10-24-2018, 04:50 PM
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I simply love the "old firearms" workmanship. People spent hours getting all the parts Just Right; checkering perfect, etc. They just look like class!
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Old 10-24-2018, 05:07 PM
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It has a very solid feel to the action, so I second your feeling on the workmanship.

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Old 10-24-2018, 08:23 PM
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I simply love the "old firearms" workmanship. People spent hours getting all the parts Just Right; checkering perfect, etc. They just look like class!
The die hard Winchester collectors regard pre-war versus post war as a major defining line in Winchester quality as there was less hand fitting with the more modern production techniques post WWII.

However, even with that qualifier the 3 post war but pre-64 Model 94s I have owned have all been vastly superior in fit, finish, function and accuracy, than the three post 63 Model 94s I have owned. The post 63s are not "bad" but the pre 64s are much better.
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Old 10-24-2018, 09:52 PM
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I once had a Winchester 1894 in .38-55 about 10-12 years back or more, was a full length octagon barrel, not as nice as yours but a lot of fun to shoot. I didn't handload then but I lucked out on a source of Winchester commemorative ammo and a few boxes of Dominion. The sound a .38-55 makes reminds me of those old western movie rifles with that two part high then low sound. I knew of one guy who had killed a deer with one over the years nearby, dropped it like it was hit with a bolt of lightning. My local gun shop has one on consignment, full round barrel but the price is way off, almost twice what it's worth and the shop hasn't been able to get the owner down to reality. Would like another one someday.
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Old 10-24-2018, 11:16 PM
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A box of Winchester 38-55 ammo here is a bit over $50 a box. I’ll check another place that sells the HSM Cowboy stuff but memory says it was cheaper

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Old 10-24-2018, 11:43 PM
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The main problem about most of the old Winchester lever action calibers like the .38-55, .33 Winchester, and .348 Win (plus a few more even older such as the .45-75) is the difficulty in finding ammunition in shootable quantities at a reasonable price. Even suitable bullets which can be used to reload for them are not abundant. Even though I have no guns for most of these calibers, if I happen to run across a box of such obsolete/obsolescent ammo at a reasonable price I will usually buy it - just in case.
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Old 10-25-2018, 12:42 AM
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For 348 Winchester, only Buffalo Bore sells complete ammunition at this point & they just recently came back out with it. Winchester hasn't made brass for it in several years, but Hornady sells new brass. I'm told that Starline now has brass also, but I have not purchased any. Bullets are available from Barnes (original in 2 weights), Hornady sells the Interlock & FTX plus Alaska Bullet Works sells a bonded bullet. I have purchased all of those bullets this year.

As far as the other calibers I don't have much info that I'm certain of.

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Old 10-25-2018, 08:19 AM
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You might even be interested in loading with Pyrodex Rifle powder.
But probably not for long.

Pyrodex has a much higher ignition temperature and it leaves a much harder fouling than black powder. I absolutely hate the stuff. IMHO the only use for black powder substitutes is if you can't get actual black powder.

As an example of the ignition issues, I have a Sharps 1859 Berdan infantry rifle. It's a standard Sharps falling block design, but designed for paper cartridges with a floating plate to provide a gas seal. The hammer strikes a musket cap on the nipple on the block which directs the flash down through a hole that make a right hand turn through a vent into the powder charge. Between the turns and the length of the path, even a musket cap won't reliably ignite Pyrodex. With FFg or FFFg black powder however, ignition is 100% reliable.

In a cartridge with a primer and the short path through the flash hole, reliability won't be an issue with Pyrodex, but you'll still have less effective ignition with Pyrodex and it will show in the form of higher standard deviation in velocity.

In my experience Pyrodex has also been much more corrosive than black powder, which is already very hygroscopic and loaded with compounds that will eat steel given time and some moisture. Pyrodex however takes it to a new level and on a humid day will flash rust parts in the time it takes to drive home from the range. Nasty stuff.

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Old 10-25-2018, 08:25 AM
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A box of Winchester 38-55 ammo here is a bit over $50 a box. I’ll check another place that sells the HSM Cowboy stuff but memory says it was cheaper

Cory
Agreed. I seldom see .38-55 ammo at all, and when I do it's almost never at a reasonable price.

That makes the .38-55 as much a handloading proposition as the .375 Win. The saving grace here is the commonality with the .30-30 case which can be fireformed to near .375 Win dimensions that are just as usable in the .38-55. Plus Starline and other companies make .38-55 brass on a regular basis.

Jacketed bullets are very hard to find, but the .38-55 is almost the perfect cast bullet cartridge.

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Old 10-25-2018, 12:44 PM
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"As an example of the ignition issues, I have a Sharps 1859 Berdan infantry rifle. It's a standard Sharps falling block design, but designed for paper cartridges with a floating plate to provide a gas seal. The hammer strikes a musket cap on the nipple on the block which directs the flash down through a hole that make a right hand turn through a vent into the powder charge. Between the turns and the length of the path, even a musket cap won't reliably ignite Pyrodex. With FFg or FFFg black powder however, ignition is 100% reliable. "


For many years I have mixed a little black powder in with the Pyrodex. It doesn't take a lot, and I don't measure it, but roughly 10% or less. I've never had ignition problems using that mixture in any of my ML rifles, my Sharps (replica), or my C&B revolvers. I have never seen the "Hard Fouling" you describe. I religiously clean all of my ML/C&B guns thoroughly with hot water after use.

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Old 10-28-2018, 09:46 PM
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For what it’s worth, this weekend I picked up some of the HSM Cowboy 38-55 stuff for $25 a box. Literally half the price of the Winchester stuff & advertised at 1500 FPS vs 1320. Also it’s cast vs jacketed. Didn’t get to shoot the HSM.

I have decided that I won’t refinish the gun. I like it the way it is. I oiled it up yesterday & the action was butter smooth after a bit of oil. Very solid lockup.

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