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  #1  
Old 12-04-2018, 08:25 PM
growr growr is offline
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Default 1911 in 9mm question

There seems to be a fairly large movement to use a 1911 in 9mm.....what is driving that anyway? This is showing up in concealed carry and especially in IDPA.
Seems like if I needed something in that configuration I would just dig out any of my 39 series guns.
What am I missing or not understanding here?

Randy
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  #2  
Old 12-04-2018, 08:45 PM
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Default 1911 in 9mm question

I shoot a 9mm in USPSA Single Stack division. I have to shoot minor power factor but I enjoy the extra magazine capacity and softer recoil. 9mm in a good 1911 is awesome. Several years ago my competitors thought I was crazy not shooting a 40 S&W or 45?ACP.


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Old 12-04-2018, 08:57 PM
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Isn't Single stack limited to 8 rnds plus one chambered?
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Old 12-04-2018, 09:01 PM
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Default 1911 in 9mm question

No not if itís minor PF. Thatís kind of the trade off of being penalized for not shoot major power factor. STI Trojan 9mm with Armor Black cerakote



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Old 12-04-2018, 09:12 PM
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I can think of a few reasons:

- 1911 triggers are generally very good and are easy to make great.

- The 1911 has a short reset and in my experience, while some pistols come close, nothing double taps better than a 1911.

- The 1911 is also comparatively thin and a Commander frame sized 1911 makes a good concealed carry handgun.

- I get 10 plus 1 rounds in my 9mm Luger 1911, compared to 8 +1 in my .45 ACP 1911. Given the improvement in 9mm Hollow point performance, I'm just as comfortable with 11 rounds of 9mm as I am with 9 rounds of .45 ACP.

- In the same amount of time it takes me score two A zone hits with .45 ACP I can score three A zone hits with 9mm Luger.

- Personally I was a die hard .45 ACP fan, until 9mm hollow point performance improved, and until I realized (or maybe just admitted t myself) that I shot 9mm Luger significantly faster at a given level of accuracy than with .45 ACP.
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Old 12-04-2018, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by growr View Post
There seems to be a fairly large movement to use a 1911 in 9mm.....what is driving that anyway? This is showing up in concealed carry and especially in IDPA.
Seems like if I needed something in that configuration I would just dig out any of my 39 series guns.
What am I missing or not understanding here?

Randy
I own one because I had a huge pile of random 9mm to use up, they are cheap to shoot even if you have to buy ammo, everybody else at "shoots" are using 9mm and it makes retrieving brass a LOT less stressful.

I never planned to carry it for SD but I have a few times. I don't recommend it.
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Old 12-04-2018, 09:57 PM
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I enjoy the history of the 1911 plus get a good one and it works extremely well.
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Old 12-04-2018, 10:29 PM
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Personally I was a die hard .45 ACP fan, until 9mm hollow point performance improved, and until I realized (or maybe just admitted t myself) that I shot 9mm Luger significantly faster at a given level of accuracy than with .45 ACP.
This is the primary thing. Improvements in ammo have dramatically closed the gap between 9mm and .45. A 1911 in 9mm has good to excellent capacity, and "big gun/little cartridge" shootability.
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Old 12-04-2018, 10:43 PM
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There are a couple reasons why Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathorn are both advocating for 9mm 1911. Less recoil, faster follow-up shots. Both are long time .45acp shooters. I agree particularly for competition shooters.
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Old 12-04-2018, 10:46 PM
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Doesn't seem right to me, can't really explain it, I just like the full size, full weight, old, GI style 1911 in .45 acp. I have a 9m/m Hi Power and CZ 75 that I love and they just seem more suited to the smaller round, but nothing beats a 1911 trigger. A scaled down, extra thin, 1911 in 9m/m might be appealing to me.
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  #11  
Old 12-05-2018, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by growr View Post
There seems to be a fairly large movement to use a 1911 in 9mm.....what is driving that anyway? This is showing up in concealed carry and especially in IDPA.
Seems like if I needed something in that configuration I would just dig out any of my 39 series guns.
What am I missing or not understanding here?

Randy
I like the 1911 platform. After some getting used to it fits my hand much better than my Italian CZ 75 clone or my duty Glock 17.

I prefer the .45 for shooting in IPSC Classic (single stack) Division but I give up 2 rounds capacity to the 9mm shooters. That is usually not a handicap as I am willling to drop ammo if needed for a reload on the move.

My 9mm 1911 is not as accurate as my .45, but I am slowly working on improvements (the latest being an EGW angled barrel bushing to go some way to replicating the bull barrel setup on my old .45). But when I shoot steel matches it is the 9mm that sits in my holster due to reduced recoil.

And I have just fitted a peep sight rear sight blade to an old sight element to my 9mm to see how that goes (so far, a single sighting in session, the results are encouraging.

If I was carrying though it would be the 9mm not the .45.
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  #12  
Old 12-05-2018, 01:41 AM
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Nine millimeter ballistic performance has increased drastically lately, it is cheaper than 45 ACP. less recoil for arthritic hands, and you can hold more rounds. 22 lr 1911's are also getting more popular for some of the same reasons. Texas changed its law to allow CHL qualification with 22 lr.
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Old 12-05-2018, 02:33 AM
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My, my. How times have changed.

Or actually, it is the ammunition, the engineering, and the attitude that have changed.

Forty-five, fifty years ago, getting 9mm to function in Ol' Slabsides was a journey of trial and error with much agony and frustration. Now there are so many good, well-made and reliable 9mm/1911's available that it makes that time seem like another century.

Wait - it was.
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Old 12-05-2018, 05:18 AM
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I picked up a Colt stainless Comp in 9mm also had the same gun in my hand in 45 , I took the 9 ,also picked up some Wilson and Chip McCormick mags . I have not had a problem with the gun its a tac driver , I shoot any 9 ammo I have through it . I like it and my 45 guns get a break .
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Old 12-05-2018, 07:42 AM
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I don't compete but have added a SW1911 pro, SigTacOps and Springfield Range officer ( all 5", all in 9mm) to my safe in recent years. I've always been a 1911 fanboy and in 9mm, they just shoot so fast and smoooooth. It's hard not to like them once you've tried one.

ps. I've even added a Sig 1911 in 40 S&W to help me burn up my reloads .
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Old 12-05-2018, 08:01 AM
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Have shot a SA 1911-A1 in 9mm for a number of years. Fine pistol. Faultless function. Excellent accuracy. Only reason I decided to let it go was that I wanted a Sig 226 Legion. Either pistol is excellent, faultless function, accurate, etc. Must say, 226 has advantage due to capacity, grip, trigger. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.
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  #17  
Old 12-05-2018, 12:12 PM
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I think it all started when the Army & USMC teams started shooting the M9 . Once they got it down & people saw the accuracy potential of 9mm , 1911's were next . Personally for Bullseye the 9mm isn't the ticket . We don't have to worry about PF , just group size especially @ 50yds . Slower twist barrels , 115gr bullets & new brass & 1100fps + loads are required to wring the best from this caliber . Recoil is the same as 45acp , but snappier . If I had to carry a 1911 I'd stick with 45acp as I shoot them very well even with full pressure loads . For 9mm a lighter gun with higher ammo capacity & quite good triggers on the Canik TP9 , Walther PPQ or HK VP9 that's what I carry . In our game it's much easier to build a 1911 in 45acp or 38 Super that'll have less recoil with the same accuracy . Added plus is they'll get target accuracy with lead bullets , not something the 9mm excels at . You can shoot lead in a 9mm , but I have yet to see anyone clean a 50yd target doing so .
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Old 12-05-2018, 01:19 PM
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I think the 9mm on a Model 1911 frame is still evolving. The turn-off for me is that the existing dimensions of the .45 ACP are usually maintained when the entire gun can be scaled back a bit for the smaller 9mm round. Notice that the slide width on a Browning HP is thinner than on a Model 1911. So, a Model 1911 in 9mm can be made slimmer overall.
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Old 12-05-2018, 01:24 PM
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Why not get Browning's masterpiece chambered in today's cheapest and most common caliber?
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Old 12-05-2018, 02:01 PM
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My wife loves the 1911 configuration, but does have issues with 45 ACP recoil.

A while back, I picked up a custom Caspian-based 1911 in 9mm. It's my wife's favorite gun to shoot, and that's a good enough reason for me.

I recently also purchased an RIA 1911 in 9mm, and it is a flat-out Hoot to Shoot. The RIA 9 has proven to be accurate and reliable.

I have a whole range of 1911's in different calibers - 22, 9mm, 38 Super, and obviously 45. I even have a Colt NM 'MR' series in 38 Special Mid-Range. The 9mm Caspian and RIA are hands-down the most fun and enjoyable to shoot.

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Old 12-05-2018, 02:21 PM
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There's a couple replies referring to "a scaled down version" of the 1911 for 9mms...

I think people who scooped up the various surplus Stars are discovering this. The Star Model B and B Super is "fullsize" but thinner than a 1911, the BM is overall more compact, without being a compact gun. Both seem to feel excellent in the hand, having just a slightly slimmer feel.

I'd like to see a new maker start with the Stars as a base and go from there- they've gotten the scaling down pat.
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Old 12-05-2018, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobysnacker View Post
There's a couple replies referring to "a scaled down version" of the 1911 for 9mms...

I think people who scooped up the various surplus Stars are discovering this. The Star Model B and B Super is "fullsize" but thinner than a 1911, the BM is overall more compact, without being a compact gun. Both seem to feel excellent in the hand, having just a slightly slimmer feel.

I'd like to see a new maker start with the Stars as a base and go from there- they've gotten the scaling down pat.
^ This. The fullsize Star in 9mm is a powder puff to shoot. It's probably the gun new shooters should try first. They used to come a lot cheaper than 1911s too.
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Old 12-05-2018, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobysnacker View Post
There's a couple replies referring to "a scaled down version" of the 1911 for 9mms...

I think people who scooped up the various surplus Stars are discovering this. The Star Model B and B Super is "fullsize" but thinner than a 1911, the BM is overall more compact, without being a compact gun. Both seem to feel excellent in the hand, having just a slightly slimmer feel.

I'd like to see a new maker start with the Stars as a base and go from there- they've gotten the scaling down pat.
I agree that the Stars are a heck of a gun for the money.

I'll add that the SIG P238 and P938 have some similarities to the Stars. I haven't compared them side by side, but I suspect SIG took some inspiration from Star.
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Old 12-05-2018, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer17 View Post
Doesn't seem right to me, can't really explain it, I just like the full size, full weight, old, GI style 1911 in .45 acp. I have a 9m/m Hi Power and CZ 75 that I love and they just seem more suited to the smaller round, but nothing beats a 1911 trigger. A scaled down, extra thin, 1911 in 9m/m might be appealing to me.
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I think the 9mm on a Model 1911 frame is still evolving. The turn-off for me is that the existing dimensions of the .45 ACP are usually maintained when the entire gun can be scaled back a bit for the smaller 9mm round. Notice that the slide width on a Browning HP is thinner than on a Model 1911. So, a Model 1911 in 9mm can be made slimmer overall.
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I agree that the Stars are a heck of a gun for the money.

I'll add that the SIG P238 and P938 have some similarities to the Stars. I haven't compared them side by side, but I suspect SIG took some inspiration from Star.
I've looked at them side-by-side, since my range has a Sig 938 for sale and I have a BM. They also have a RIA commander-sized gun.

The BM looks about midway between the 2; compared to the Commander, it is slimmer and a bit smaller. The P938 looks a lot more cut-down, but isn't really much slimmer in slide.

I find it somewhat odd that there isn't a BM clone available.

Here are some googled photos for comparison:

you can't really tell from this angle, but the BM is thinner and shorter slide

in comparison, here's a Star PD (basically a BM in 45) compared to a P938

Sig is much smaller again.
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobysnacker View Post
There's a couple replies referring to "a scaled down version" of the 1911 for 9mms...

I think people who scooped up the various surplus Stars are discovering this. The Star Model B and B Super is "fullsize" but thinner than a 1911, the BM is overall more compact, without being a compact gun. Both seem to feel excellent in the hand, having just a slightly slimmer feel.

I'd like to see a new maker start with the Stars as a base and go from there- they've gotten the scaling down pat.

Then there's the Springfield Armory EMP, which is genuinely a scaled down 1911 frame. Best 1911 Handguns | Top .45 Caliber Guns for Sale



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Old 12-05-2018, 06:07 PM
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You can easily have a 9mm if you already own a M1911 in .45. Just get a 9mm slide and barrel, a 9mm ejector, a 9mm magazine, and a lighter recoil spring. Add a .38 Super barrel and magazine and you have three calibers on the same frame. I shoot the 9mm better and practice ammo is cheaper than I can reload it for.

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Old 12-05-2018, 06:28 PM
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Has anyone tried the Springfield Armory EMP4 in 9mm? That's the one I want. It's about a 7/8 size of a 1911 and good looking. My CCL pistol is a 9mm Shield and I would not give it up.

But there is an old saying that goes like this: "You're not too old for your wants to hurt you." So I'm gonna have to wait awhile.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

While I was typing someone else posted about the EMP4. Sorry

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Old 12-05-2018, 07:16 PM
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I have been shooting my 1911 Pro 9mm in USPSA shooting competition for about a year. My hit factors are improving.



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Old 12-05-2018, 07:25 PM
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9mm recoils less in compact lightweight 1911s. Also, you get an extra round or two.
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Old 12-05-2018, 07:25 PM
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I've always wanted a 1911, but all my pistols are 9mm (or .38/.357).
When 1911s became reliable in 9mm, I finally got one.
Simple as that.
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobysnacker View Post
There's a couple replies referring to "a scaled down version" of the 1911 for 9mms...

I think people who scooped up the various surplus Stars are discovering this. The Star Model B and B Super is "fullsize" but thinner than a 1911, the BM is overall more compact, without being a compact gun. Both seem to feel excellent in the hand, having just a slightly slimmer feel.

I'd like to see a new maker start with the Stars as a base and go from there- they've gotten the scaling down pat.
Exactly.

I carried a Hi Power for a few years, and I've also carried my Ruger SR1911 in 9mm, but I prefer the Star BM to both. So much that I bought three of them - for about the same price as single 1911 or Hi Power. They are great shooting pistols and it's more comfortable to carry than a Commander sized 1911.



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Old 12-05-2018, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericrlarson View Post
I shoot a 9mm in USPSA Single Stack division. I have to shoot minor power factor but I enjoy the extra magazine capacity and softer recoil. 9mm in a good 1911 is awesome. Several years ago my competitors thought I was crazy not shooting a 40 S&W or 45?ACP.


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I also shoot a 9mm 1911 in USPSA SS division, Dan Wesson PM9. I'll take the 2 extra rounds at minor power factor scoring over the major power factor shooters any day. It's really hard to not get all alphas in a stage with this gun so major/minor doesn't matter at that point.
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Joe Clark View Post
Has anyone tried the Springfield Armory EMP4 in 9mm? That's the one I want. It's about a 7/8 size of a 1911 and good looking. My CCL pistol is a 9mm Shield and I would not give it up.

But there is an old saying that goes like this: "You're not too old for your wants to hurt you." So I'm gonna have to wait awhile.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

While I was typing someone else posted about the EMP4. Sorry
Ole Joe Clark

I recently tried a friend's Springfield EMP4, it was very nice shooting little pistol, it does seem a LOT smaller than a 1911 framed pistol.

Then I started thinking about it, I have a Springfield Loaded in .45acp and a Range Officer in 9mm. There are many things I could do to both of these, being somewhat standard 1911 frame pistols, tons of options as far as parts, grips, caliber conversions, etc. Once you get into the EMPs, there are no such options available.

These, by the way, are range guns, not CCWs.
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:38 PM
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1911’s in the 9MM caliber have been around for many years. Specially 9x21 and 9x23. For many years there were only a few manufacturers that made a 1911 in 9MM. There are many more now but I believe it’s due to customer demand.

Demand due to the improvement of self defense ammo and low recoil. I’ve owned two 9MM 1911’s and didn’t care for them. But for some reason I love my buddy’s STI 2011.
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Old 12-08-2018, 05:53 PM
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An interesting thread as I have been thinking of purchasing a 1911 for some time. I just haven't decided which caliber yet a 9mm or the traditional .45 . The 9mm round is obviously cheaper to buy and I already have two handguns in that caliber but I would think that reloading the .45 would off set that price difference some.
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Old 12-09-2018, 01:02 PM
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I've somewhat moderated my belief that a 1911-A1 chambered for a cartridge other than .45 Auto was blasphemy & punishable my Spanish inquisition ;-)
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Old 12-09-2018, 08:35 PM
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I've somewhat moderated my belief that a 1911-A1 chambered for a cartridge other than .45 Auto was blasphemy & punishable my Spanish inquisition ;-)
You have to allow the 38 Super just for it's cool factor.
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Old 12-09-2018, 08:40 PM
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Isn't there a law against this?
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Old 12-09-2018, 08:44 PM
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Isn't there a law against this?
There should be. I bought a really pretty Springfield EMP 4" in 9mm. It won't feed or eject reliably. Never had these problems with any 45 1911.
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Old 12-09-2018, 11:05 PM
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There should be. I bought a really pretty Springfield EMP 4" in 9mm. It won't feed or eject reliably. Never had these problems with any 45 1911.
Greg, if you want to part with that EMP4 shoot me a pm.

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Old 12-10-2018, 11:08 AM
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Another one possible is the Rock Island Armory. All steel, but available in a compact model also (3 1/2" barrel). Mine is very accurate and reliable, but it is a little heavy for carry.
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Old 12-10-2018, 06:28 PM
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Shoot one. Then you will know why.


They are just so much fun.
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Old 12-10-2018, 06:45 PM
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I like the full size 5” barreled 1911 in 45acp. Only. The cz75/85 platform serves the 9mm Luger round very well.
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Old 12-12-2018, 08:33 PM
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Ammunition hasn't changed a bit. That is all sales department hype for suckers. Ammunition is still just a hunk of lead flying out of a barrel at a velocity and it's not anything but aesthetics different from 50 years ago.

"New Tied" is more "new and improved" than a 125 grain hunk of lead is any different than it was 100 years ago.
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:59 PM
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Ammunition hasn't changed a bit. That is all sales department hype for suckers. Ammunition is still just a hunk of lead flying out of a barrel at a velocity and it's not anything but aesthetics different from 50 years ago.

"New Tied" is more "new and improved" than a 125 grain hunk of lead is any different than it was 100 years ago.

Say what ?
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:26 PM
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Say what ?
Quote:
The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibited the use in international warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body.
That was 120 years ago.
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Old 12-13-2018, 05:00 PM
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I sold my EMP. Logistical reason. Fool thing had an ambi safety, and I was constantly finding the gun cocked but not locked at the end of the day. Bumping into all sorts of things .....

Called SA and asked if they would swap out for a traditional safety, they said no, not even if I paid.

Guy at the LGS where I bought it said it was a custom build, and he could get all my money back even after the consignment fee, as they had folks looking for that model. I sold it, and came out $50 ahead after all considered.

Took the money and bought a Ruger SR1911 9 commander with cash left over. It is still cocked and locked when I get home, and I am actually more accurate with the Ruger.

Only problem is that model does not like WC mags. Kimber mags work great (that's fine, I had several that won't work in another pistol, was planning on dumping them, no longer a problem) . Difference in the length of the feed lips seems to be the issue.

I love .45ACP (the Army trained me well with my 1911), but my bone damage from chemo meds makes shooting it painful, and a box fired leaves a nasty bruise on my forearm and shoulder.

If you really want to get spoiled with 9mm, find a Dan Wesson Guardian. Nothing affordable compares.
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Old 12-13-2018, 05:47 PM
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The 1911 5" platform is just exceptional in my opinion. I have that in 38 super, 45, 9, and 40, all single stack. God bless John Browning.
As for the EMP4 question, my wife has both the 9 and 40 4". Outstanding fire arms and they run flawlessly. The 9 has an alloy frame whereas the 40 has a steel frame.
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Old 12-14-2018, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Ryan View Post
That was 120 years ago.
I gotta say, I'm really interested in hearing where this goes.

There have been significant advances in 9mm ammunition in my lifetime...no, within the span of my shooting career. The .40S&W has been invented, risen to dominance, and fallen completely out of favor in the time I've been alive, directly because of advances in 9mm.
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Old 12-15-2018, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
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Why not get Browning's masterpiece chambered in today's cheapest and most common caliber?
^^^^^^There it is!
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