I know that in New York, officers were issued Double Action Only revolvers with a bobbed hammer. I presume this was to prevent accidental or negligent discharges. Fast forward to the switch over to the semiautomatic pistol for "increased firepower". Why didn't more police departments adopt (perhaps they did?) the DAO pistol like the Beretta 92D? It would give one the increased ammunition capacity paired with the deliberate long trigger pull off the double action revolver. Seems like a win-win for safety, liability, and the avoidance of a spray-and-pray mentality.

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otis

NYPD did authorize the S&W 5946 and 3914 DAO pistols.
I have eight hammer fired DAO pistols; I like them. This is not a popular variation in my area and is difficult to sell or trade.

Though not a "true DAO" I have a couple of Browning BDMs (the nominal successor to the BHP, but killed by the Clinton magazine limit). These have a very simple method of changing from DA/SA to DAO by simply turning a screw head. So can carry DAO as you actually have to physically rotate the screw head with a dime, so cannot suddenly decide to change during use. Dave_n

I would guess the design was not favored by a lot of L/E because many of the recruits could not shoot a DA only pistol very well.
A somewhat heavy DA pull leaves some nearly unable to pull the trigger and still fire with any sort of accuracy.

They can argue and demand PC all they want, but a DA pull of X# of lbs using whatever issue firearm still has to be mastered by the shooter, no matter who they might be.

We all have different wants, needs, likes, and dislikes, but I couldn't imagine buying a double-action-only pistol. With a bit of practice and familiarity, conventional double-action is fine.

We looked at both the 1076 & 1086; with the powers that be opting for the 1086. I still have mine, & like shooting it. But I gotta admit it sure gets heavy on the hip.

Here is my take on the subject. The Walther style of DA/SA is pretty ingenious, but excessively complicated. If you only want to shoot casually at the range it's okay, but there are just too many options for its use as a self defense gun.

That's my opinion, now here are some facts. We'll compare the operation of the traditional DA/SA, with the operation of a DAO (double-action only) such as a Glock. (I know that the Glock is not a true DAO as racking the slide puts the mainspring at a half-cock position - I call it a 1-1/2 action - but operationally it's virtually the same.)

With the traditional DA/SA, after inserting a magazine and chambering a round here are your choices:

If the safety was off when the round was chambered, you may:

• Leave the gun as it is, hammer cocked and safety off (not advisable unless you’re immediately ready to shoot.)
• Or decock the gun with the decocker and leave the safety on.
• Or decock the gun with the decocker and take the safety off.
• Or slowly decock the gun (to avoid noise) by using the decocker, and carefully lowering the hammer with your thumb or pinched between finger and thumb and leave the safety off.
• Or decock the gun by using the decocker and carefully lowering the hammer and put the safety on.
• Or decock the gun by pulling the trigger (not recommended), and carefully lowering the hammer and leave the safety off.
• Or decock the gun by pulling the trigger and carefully lowering the hammer and put the safety on.

If the safety was on when you chambered a round, the hammer will follow the slide and the gun will be on-safe with the hammer down.

• You can then leave it as it is, safety on and hammer down.
• Or disengage the safety and leave the hammer down.
• Or disengage the safety and cock the hammer with your thumb (only if you’re immediately ready to shoot).

Then to fire:

• If the hammer is cocked and the safety is off, pull the trigger in single-action mode.
• If the hammer is down and the safety is off, pull the trigger in double-action mode.
• If the hammer is down and the safety is on, disengage the safety and pull the trigger in DA mode.
• If the hammer is down and the safety is on, disengage the safety, cock the hammer manually and pull the trigger in SA mode.

Once you’ve fired your first shot, you may then do any of the things in the first part above (1-7), and not necessarily the same thing you did before. Or you can shoot again in SA mode.



With the double-action only auto, once you’ve loaded a round your choices are then:

• Keep your finger off the trigger and don’t shoot.
• Or pull the trigger with a long DAO stroke and shoot.

Same choices once you’ve fired your first shot. Finger off the trigger and don’t shoot, or pull the trigger DAO and shoot.


If I’ve counted correctly, after chambering a round in the traditional DA/SA there are ten possible actions to take to NOT fire, and four TO fire.

With the DAO auto there is only the option to fire, or not to fire.


I know which batch of instructions I'd rather try to remember in a self-defense situation. Just plinking at the range? Whatever.

Tom K- You're opinion is well taken, but the explanation justifying that opinion seems needlessly complicated. It shouldn't be. I'll stand by the simple message in my post.

Call me crazy but I am pretty doggone sure my DAO CS-9 has a decocker. So there is a third option.

Since the fire in April the gun has not been seen (it's not gone; just stored remotely) so I can't swear to what I just wrote but that's how I remember it. Correct me if I'm wrong, PLEASE!

While not a service caliber pistol, the CZ45 is a DAO hammer fired gun with no safety at all, no single action cocking capability and no slide hold open. As slick as you can imagine and the basis for the well regarded Seecamps. You just chamber a round and carry it like you would a DAO revolver. An ideal pocket gun.

Attached Images

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I agree. I really liked the 3953 I owned, but they just weren't that popular and never sold like the 3913's.

My explanation is exactly as complicated as the traditional DA/SA auto operating mechanism. It is a fact that there are many choices available to the user for how to handle the mechanism. If my explanation is needlessly complicated, then so is the mechanism. I'll stand by my simple opinion.

I'm not particularly familiar with the Chiefs Special 9mm but here's an article on it that says it has the usual DA/SA trigger mechanism. Smith & Wesson Chief's Special 9mm (CS9) | USCCA Gun Reviews

After a little more Googling I see that S&W also made the CS-9 as DAO with a Glock-like 1/2 or 1/4 cock of the mainspring, depending on the version. Here's a Forum thread with some discussion. My CS9 to DAO is back

Perhaps on the DAO version the decocker actually releases the precocking of the mainspring, or perhaps it is strictly a safety. There are any number of DAO autos that do incorporate a safety lever.

The Beretta 92D is about as simple as it comes. Load mag, pull slide back. THATS IT. No safety, no decocker, no double single action transition, and takes much more of a deliberate action to fire than any striker fired gun. One of THE simplest and safest autos yet made.

But, it comes at a price. Even with a reduced power spring (dubbed the D spring by Berettafiles), it’s still a long and fairly heavy trigger stroke for every shot fired, and takes practice to master. But it’s very very safe. I know STL police used it for years, maybe even unto yet this very day.

As a Berettafile myself, and being born in and growing up near St. Louis myself, I’ve been on the hunt for a 92D for the collection. They aren’t common and those that can be found are often well beaten up.

I have an Italian made Beretta 92D Centurion that is still like new
because I haven't fired it very much. As mentioned above it is a very
safe and simple firearm that takes a bit of getting used to. I don't see
the DA only autos as ever becoming the standard model for police
departments around the US as the feel is quite different than the usual DA/SA or the striker fired guns. But I love mine and it's not for sale.

The NYPD used to offer the 5946, SIG 226, and the Glock 19 as duty weapons. They all had about a 12 pound trigger pull so no easier to learn to shoot in any of them.

I’ve always felt a striker fired weapon was a bad choice for cops. ND’s are more likely to happen on the reholster and a thumb on the back of the hammer is an extra layer of safety to help prevent that. I own a few striker fired weapons but still feel much more comfortable reholstering a hammered fired one, DAO or not. I passed on a LNIB 3953 with three factory mags for $299. I was picking up another gun they day and didn’t want to spend the money. I’m still kicking myself. Never gonna see that deal again.

As a side note, I was thinking of the Beretta 92D when I started this thread.

In the thread I shared the link to below, it is argued that police officers with revolvers faired better because they had to make every shot count. I would argue that they faired well not only because of limited capacity, but because they fired in double action mode and had to take more of a deliberate well aimed shot. My premise would be that a DAO pistol like the Beretta 92D gives you both increased ammo capacity with the need for a long deliberate DA trigger pull. To me, at least in law enforcement circles with concern over the liability of a misplaced shot, pistols like the Beretta 96D are the best compromise for LEOs. For police units like those in New York who were concerned with such things and issued revolvers with bobbed hammers to prevent SA firing, I would think the 96D would be a no brainer for a service firearm.

Revolver or high capacity auto

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otis

I had a Beretta 92 D Centurion and still have a Compact Type-M D.......with the D spring it was like shooting a S&W Revolver with about a 9lb trigger pull...... with a little work Wilson Combat. can get that down in the 7lb range.

So I had a 15+1 revolver and still have an 8+1.......

I know that in the late 70s through the mid-90s Police trained to shoot DAO ..... some got good at it ..... most were at best shooting fair qualification scores (in my personal experience)...... many struggled beyond 7 yards. ...... jerking the trigger,breaking their wrist etc.

The original Glock trigger was IIRC about 6lb with a fairly short trigger pull.......while classified as a DOA by the ATF ...... (as noted above it was more like" half cocked")........ the Politicians latched on to the DOA idea ( in a $225 gun) when in reality the Glock was IMO and experience closer to a single action Smith in pull weight and Length of trigger Pull........ so NYPD demanded the "New York Trigger" @ 12lbs. I heard that the Pittsburgh Police had a lot of AD with the Glock .........in the locker rooms with the original triggers.

What was needed was more and better DAO training..... expensive for the Dept and something most cops don't do on their own. The exception being "gun guys' that are on this and other forums.

Back in the day I qualified with my S&W 3" 65 loaded with the FBI load DOA... no hammer spur..... in the +95% range.......did the same with the Beretta 92 a couple of times....... Truth be told I like the DA/SA set up ....best of both worlds for me; the long first shot DA is like the old days with my Smith ( for both safety and decision making) ..... with follow up shots, if needed, SA like a nice Browning HP.

I have two DAO pistols. Both are LE trades, a SiG P229 .40, and a SiG P220 in DAK.

The DAK is Double Action Kellerman, basically DAO with two different trigger pulls. They developed it for a reason, but I don't see the point.

Both have long but smooth trigger pulls. As long as the trigger isn't like a staple gun, I could take or leave a DAO. It's neither good nor bad.

Not being LE, I shoot quite a bit with different trigger types so DAO doesn't bother me. It does take a bit of getting used to though!

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Thread Killer.

When I joined the sheriff's office (Volusia, FL) we were issued new S&W 4046 pistols in .40 cal. I kid you not, the trigger pull on mine when new felt like about 25 lbs. After shooting master with a double action Model 66, I actually failed to qualify with the P.O.S. the first time I tried. Was stuck carrying it for 9 years until we went to Glock (thank God). It eventually smoothed out and I actually shot master with it once in 9 years. Hated that gun and never felt confident with it. DAO pistols to me were a way of pacifying chiefs, sheriffs and liability attorneys.

I have only one DAO pistol, a S&W 6946. When I purchased it, it was a whole lot less expensive than a Glock, less expensive than the M&P (which was still a new and somewhat unproven design when I bought the 6946), and pretty much less expensive than any other DAO or striker fired pistol at the time. Mine is blessed with a MIM fire control group and has a very smooth pull that is around 8 pounds. I'd have to work at it to cause a negligent discharge and that is a feature that keeps it from being traded for a plastic pistol.

No DA-SA transition to master. No safety to fumble. A smooth and consistent trigger pull. Simple to operate and maintain. I just see little need in my going to a striker fired pistol unless I want something smaller. Sadly, 3953's are much harder to find than 3913's and 3913's are pretty rare items these days.

I think there were a couple of things at work:

1. Glock practically gave guns away to LE. They made money by reselling the trade ins. That was hard to compete with.

2. An actual DA trigger on an auto is more difficult to control than a DA revolver, due to the shape of the grips and the low return spring weight on the auto.

3. It just don't seem cool to have the slide cycling back and forth and not get your mainspring cocked for the trouble.

Which is probably why the "DAO" guns that actually had any police popularity outside the 92D aren't real DAO. The 5946, Kahr, DAK, etc all rely on partially cocking the mainspring. The DAK is unusual in having second strike, which only works because the hammer has two reset points. The short trigger reset wasn't originally intended to be used for fast firing - it's the pickup for second strike.

But you do see some actual DAO Sigs, SW990s, Ruger Ps and USPs that were cop guns for sale.

I don't worry about why some LE agency picks anything firearm or ammo related . Seems like more times than not common sense has little to do with choices made .

I'm glad some of you don't have input to my department on what I carry. Some misinformation and oft repeated internet lore about how firearms are picked for LE posted in this thread.

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- Change it back -

Anyone who's spent time shooting revolvers knows all about 'staging' the trigger in DA shooting. Once mastered, it's as accurate as shooting SA.

In the wide variety of PC-themed DAO autos, very few have triggers that stage like a good S&W K or L frame. Whole different animal.
Way back when my department was first transitioning to autos, they too narrowed the choice down to the M1076 and 1086.
I was glad they selected the 1076, and later the 4566, aka 'The Brick'.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

But...why stage when it takes longer? If you have that kind of time, cock it.

Or, just learn to shoot double-action by pulling through. This is why we bought S&Ws instead of awful Colts. It's not hard, you just have to not suck.

A nice DAO pistol that unfortunately make it and only 500 made was the Colt Z40 which was a joint venture of Colt and CZ. Nothing but a trigger and hammer to worry about.The trigger pull was unbelievably smooth. If you can find one try it.

Didn’t make it....sorry

I have long considered the small pocket revolvers as my best option as a civilian for personal protection and so have found the transition to the latest generation of small DAO pocket pistols natural and smooth. My experience with the new ones I will admit is somewhat limited, a few years rather than too many decades but so far I find I actually tend to pocket one of the newer little pistols rather than my Chief's Special or Lemon Squeezer Centennial or Detective Special or even the newer 642 and others. All the new pocket pistols are smaller, lighter, easier to conceal and with smoother and lighter triggers than my snub nose revolvers. Add in they all hold at least one and mostly two rounds more ammunition than the wheelies.


Modern 380 ammo is not the same as what was generally available a quarter century or more ago and since I have owned and still own some more experienced 380 pistols the transition to the newer versions of ammo was also pretty smooth and simple. And the newer little pocket pistols seem to be as tolerant of different style bullets as the most forgiving of the older ones.


As much as I hate to admit it, I've become a DAO Pistol convert, joined the choir, drank the Koolaid. I do have some limits. I still find the recoil cocked hammer or firing pin silly unless there is also a full trigger controlled hammer/firing pin capability included as with the conventional DA/SA. That's likely simply a familiarity factor, I have no real issues with pistols like the 1911 or Browning Hi Power yet find myself uncomfortable with my Ruger LCP or HS2K. But it is still there. That system seems like a Rube Goldberg solution for a non-existent problem. I find the trigger on my Beretta Pico and Remington RM380 and even the S&W M&P Bodyguard 380 as smooth and light and crisp as the LCP and without that really annoying LCP double reset.

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Vintage must be older than me!

"Whats a Safety switch and DAO" said the Glock to its owner.

The Smith 3rd gen DAOs achieved some success with law enforcement. They never really caught on with the civilian market.

It was the perceived safety advantage and easier transition from revolvers that drove it. Once again, those things were more attractive to institutional buyers and civilians.

Once those institutions moved to plastic guns...the metal framed DAOs lost their main market.

The Smith DAOs, especially the earlier ones, were ahead of their time. A consistent trigger pull, hammer fired, flat with better capacity than a revolver, they have something to offer, even today.

A civilian concealed carrier, could do a lot worse than a 3953.

I meant "institutional buyers THAN civilians". Sorry.

Local politics played a big part in what the politicians with badges and their overlords would permit for their agency. Even agencies that allowed their officers a personal choice of sidearm limited those choices.

As a long time revolver shooter, I found the transition from revolver to S&W DAO pistols to be easy. I like the trigger on the DAOs which reminds me of the 19-4 I carried on my duty belt for nearly a quarter century.

Now, I own seven S&W Gen3 DAO pistols in 9mm and .40 S&W. I have twice as many TDAs in my safe but may add more DAOs if the price is right.

Most of the time I carry either a 3953 or 4053.