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  #101  
Old 05-24-2020, 06:17 PM
pawncop pawncop is offline
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Back in the day I carried a Walther PPK/S as a backup sidearm, inside my vest, strong hand side. I later switched to a model 23 Glock. For the same weight (essentially) I now had 15 rounds of 40 S&W opposed to 8 rounds of.380 ACP.

Improvement does not necessarily indicate obsolescence. I still have a Walther PPK/S (not the same one) and think it still meets a need.

When it does not meet a need, that will define it being obsolete.
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  #102  
Old 05-24-2020, 07:00 PM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawncop View Post
Back in the day I carried a Walther PPK/S as a backup sidearm, inside my vest, strong hand side. I later switched to a model 23 Glock. For the same weight (essentially) I now had 15 rounds of 40 S&W opposed to 8 rounds of.380 ACP.

Improvement does not necessarily indicate obsolescence. I still have a Walther PPK/S (not the same one) and think it still meets a need.

When it does not meet a need, that will define it being obsolete.
Funny, my primary carry gun is now a SW40VE, which is a clone of the Glock 23.
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  #103  
Old 05-26-2020, 07:11 AM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Best for what though? Best for collecting, looking at and fondling perhaps. Maybe even for recreational shooting.
What I meant was best of the Walther PP/PPK/PPKS family.

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But to defend yourself? That's where I think this gun gets much harder to justify.

Certainly if the shooter's gun is reliable and the shooter can place shots where needed at speed it can get the job done. But it's hard to say it's a top choice by modern standards.
Not the top choice I agree, but as you said, it can get the job done.

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The lack of a slide stop alone is an issue. Clearing a malfunction without one is not the easiest thing.
They do have a slide stop. What they don't have is a slide release.
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  #104  
Old 05-26-2020, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by David LaPell View Post
I have the Walther's Russian designed cousin. The Makarov PM, I would hardly call it obsolete.

If i had to carry a handgun into combat, I'd take that Makarov any day of the week over the PPK.

The PPK looks nicer, and in the best examples are striking examples of superlative fit, finish and attention to detail.

The Makarov is none of those but has a much better chance of working under non-optimal conditions.

It is it's finicky nature that sours me on the PPK, not it's weight or caliber.

If you have a perfectly reliable one, I'm happy for you. I'm sure they exist, but don't kid yourself that yours is reliable if you've finally got your's to feed two consecutive magazines of a specific brand of ball with a specific magazine with the gun perfectly clean while being held with a perfect Walther-specific grip.

I know I'm being harsh but once again, it's the generally finicky nature of the gun that makes it a less than stellar choice.

I'd carry an equally old M&P .38 in it's place any day.

Of course your milage and opinion may differ and I respect that.

I said my piece and will quit ranting.
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  #105  
Old 05-26-2020, 08:41 AM
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I always had to have one and I got one. After having it for awhile and shooting it I wasn’t impressed! I really didn’t like it and I wouldn’t use it for CCW purposes.
I had an old version Bersa 83 that I liked better and I like my EG Mak a lot more then that.
I still have it, it’s in the gun safe and that’s where it shall remain!
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  #106  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:33 AM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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You know, for as finnicky as folks say that Walther PP Series pistols are, my Smith & Wesson PPK/S has never malfunctioned once, and I once spent an entire afternoon at the range trying to cause a malfunction.

I got it dirty, limp-wristed it, shot it sideways (gangsta-style) because I heard they would malfunction if I ever had to fire one from a horizontal position, shot it upside down, shot it after my hands became all shaky towards the end of the trip, complete with combinations of all of the above.

No, I didn't do anything too terribly elaborate like your average YouTube Torture Test, but to me the fact that it continued to function while dirty, with a weak grip, in an awkward position, and with shaky hands, it performs in anything but a worst case scenario in which you dropped it into a mud puddle then call a time-out while you bent over and fished it out as your attacker politely waits for you to retrieve it. In other words, it will function in real life just fine.
Ah, but then again, all of the self-proclaimed experts on the Walther Forums insisted to me that all S&W manufactured PPKs were horribly unreliable pieces of junk that couldn't get through a single magazine without malfunctioning, so I suppose that mine is just special or something.

Oh, and it's worth noting that my S&W PPK/S has had absolutely nothing special done to it, unless you count changing out the grips, and during my testing I actually used Remington UMC, which everyone told me (after I bought it, of course) was terrible ammo that no PPK would ever cycle because it's too weak and dirty to cycle the action.
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  #107  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:44 AM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Considering that the style is still being made by more then one manufacture I would say no it's not obsolete. The one pictured has been relegated to more show they everyday carry since it got all scratched up, not a Walther but still a classic.
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  #108  
Old 05-26-2020, 11:00 AM
Wyatt Burp Wyatt Burp is offline
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu View Post
James Bond never used a PPK/S.

It's the one pistol of the PP family I really dislike.
While I loved James Bond movies (Sean Connery. Not those imposters), I wasn't into Walthers. In fact I only have three semi-autos now, being a revolver guy. But after shooting a friend's Walther PPK or PP, or PPK/s, don't know which, .22 I wanted one in .380. So not being a purist I liked the compromised PPK/s with the PP frame and shorter barrel. And I specifically wanted an Interarms because I thought I could find one for $450 or less. Then found the one I started this thread about for $425 plus ammo. About seven years ago I guess. I don't like stainless guns but a stainless PPK/S is one I'd like to have. But my blue one will do.

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  #109  
Old 05-26-2020, 11:11 AM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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D. Harry, I'm a member of the Walther forum for about a year and haven't seen the S&W pistols excoriated to the extent that you report. There is a pecking order, certainly, like there is everywhere you see collectors + shooters and sometimes the lines cross. I remember someone posting an obviously humorous-intended post as intending to denigrate some PPK/S owner.

I don't own a S&W PPK, mine are Interarms and W. German, but Smiths aren't unknown on that forum. I believe S&W's customer service was the main reason that left a bad taste. And the addition of that damned long beavertail, a sore point that persists up to the Ft. Smiths currently being made. These also have their criticisms in the frames, sharpness that causes discomfort when shooting. The pre-S&Ws, BTW, even the best, most respected, have slide-bite for a LOT of people who tolerate it because, well, that's the price to be paid for shooting a fine pistol. I don't get bitten so it's not an issue for me personally because I hold the pistol properly.

There are good S&W and piss-poor pre-WW2 (the apex) Walthers. Main thing is you have a pistol that works and satisfies you. I don't think anyone on the Walther Forum will dismiss that.

Many, of not most, think the .380's recoil as being "snappy" which is apparently is made less comfortable with the sharp edges on the Ft Smith guns. A few, like me, carry PP-guns for ED carry, but most don't. Over there, the ultimate would be a commercial pre-war PPK in .32 ACP.
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  #110  
Old 05-26-2020, 06:04 PM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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@GeneL
I was a regular on the Walther Forums from 2015 to about 2018, ergo my comments are not up-to-date. Also, it's worth noting that at some point in time the Walther Forums ownership changed hands and has an entirely different administrative staff which has apparently taken an increasingly large role in policing the forum based on feedback from dissatisfied/alienated users such as myself. So yeah, my comments are dated to be sure, but if you need proof, then just look back at posts from that time period (2015-2018) on the PP/TP Subforum, or more specifically, search threads on the S&W PPK from that time frame or earlier. You'll see what I mean.
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  #111  
Old 05-26-2020, 06:40 PM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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There are guns about the size of the PPK that are 9mm. There are 380s about the size of a Colt 1908 25 auto. 380s may have gotten smaller, but people's hands haven't. The shootability of the Walther is legendary. Decent double action with mild recoil. If you lay it next to a J frame revolver. It is pretty close in height and length but slimmer. It is slightly heavier, but that just makes it very pleasant to shoot. If you are carrying a 380, shot placement is critical. The PPK holds more rounds, is easy to shoot, quick to reload and very concealable. It must be a very efficient weapon since it was so deadly, they had to ban its importation with the 1968 gun control act. In my opinion, it will never ever be obsolete. Plus, some of them are made in the USA by Smith & Wesson.
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  #112  
Old 05-26-2020, 08:30 PM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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In .380 ACP the PPK, nor even it's larger frame offspring the PPK/S has what I would consider "mild" recoil. .32 ACP, maybe, (not sure, never shot a .32) .22LR, definitely, but not in .380 ACP.

I'm no lightweight when it comes to recoil either, I actually somewhat enjoy shooting firearms with some kick like my Taurus Judge Magnum and Mossberg 590 Shockwave, but my S&W PPK/S in .380 ACP is the definition of the term "snappy" with a sharp slap right to the web between the thumb and forefinger that even with the extended beavertail it will draw blood after a good 50+ rounds because it will eventually just beat the knuckle where the thumb meets the hand until it splits open. (Not as bad as slide bite leaving bloody track marks on your hand when firing an older model with a high grip, but it'll leave you with a little cut regardless.)
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  #113  
Old 05-26-2020, 10:08 PM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Yeah. the .380 isn't what I'd call "mild." Most people don't, in fact. The Walther frames are now made in the USA, the slides in Germany.

The .32s are sweet shooters with just enough recoil to be interesting. My .380 is very accurate and I don't shoot enough rounds at one range trip to damage my hand. The J-frames with traditional wooden grips I find to be unpleasant and hard to control. Rubber grips make them tolerable and you can find rubber grips for PPs and PPK/S.

IMO, with any handgun, shot placement is critical.
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  #114  
Old 05-26-2020, 10:52 PM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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The Glock will not shoot as well out beyond 50 yards. It's a fine gun.
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  #115  
Old 05-26-2020, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by David LaPell View Post
I have the Walther's Russian designed cousin. The Makarov PM, I would hardly call it obsolete.

For some oddball reason the prices on those keep going up.
A German Mak is hard to find.
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  #116  
Old 05-26-2020, 11:49 PM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Makarov PMs are definitely getting harder to come by, but then again, these sorts of guns get imported in waves, and with so many produced by so many countries for so long, it's very likely that they'll come back eventually once some police force that still uses them finally decides to upgrade or otherwise yet another cache of crates full of the things is discovered.
Yeah, apparently the Soviet Union just loved leaving crates full of weapons all over the place or something, because you wouldn't believe the amount of backstories of sudden imports of old Soviet Military arms coming into the country was that somebody uncovered some crazy stash of the things somewhere.

Recently a lot of Tokarev TT33s (which are basically a hybrid between the old FN 1903 and 1911 chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev) have shown back up on the market for just about $220, so having kicked myself up and down the block for the past few years for letting a near pristine FEG PA-63 (Walther PP clone chambered in 9x18 Makarov) priced at $150 get away, I jumped on it.
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  #117  
Old 05-27-2020, 11:01 AM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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One more piece of information I'll add - Ruger's LC380 (not the LCP) does do everything a PPK does but is lighter, has a better trigger (as long as you don't mind a very light DAO trigger), and is designed with a tilting barrel rather than blowback. It's about the same size as a PPK, so the recoil is truly mild and the slide is the easiest the rack that I have found on any gun.

It is better than the PPK? "Better" is entirely subjective. The PPK is a classy and classic piece, but it's far more pleasant to carry and shoot the Ruger. BTW, the Ruger is also much cheaper - I got mine for right at $200 BNIB from gunbroker. YMMV.
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:59 AM
HOUSTON RICK HOUSTON RICK is offline
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The Walther PPs and PPKs are just plain cool, maybe because of or along with the Bond mystique, right up there in sentiment if not collector dollar value with the Luger despite the relatively light caliber. It does not hurt that it is accurate and easy to carry.
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  #119  
Old 05-28-2020, 02:39 PM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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The Ruger, Taurus and the Sig all win over the Walther design as they are locked breech designs so are easier to rack and exhibit less felt recoil because of physics. If you go to a Sig 250SC in .380 you get a 12-15 round gun only a little bulkier than the PPK/S. Sadly, that model is discontinued.
I also think Sig made a mistake in discontinuing the P250 .380. I have one; it is an extremely accurate pistol, and racking the slide is one-finger easy. Fast, controlled pairs are ridiculously quick and end up right on top of one another. I think it would have been an ideal beginner's semi auto. For those who wanted it so configured, Sig could conceivably have put a thumb safety on it as they did with the M-17. Mine has the short compact frame with 15 round capacity, but I also have a sub-compact frame and a number of 12-round magazines. While they last, those mags are in the $10 range if you shop around online.

I love the PPK. Mine is an Interarms .380 in stainless that I picked up for under $400 because the loaded chamber indicator was rattling back and forth in the channel. To fix it, I stretched the spring back out, and it works fine now. However, I did get a new spring for $3.50 with free shipping that I'll get around to installing one of these days. I'm on the lookout for a blued PPK in .32 for a reasonable price as that would just be 23-Skidoo. I truly believe the Walther PPK is a "masterpiece in Art-Deco industrial design," and they are great fun to have and shoot for experienced pistoleros, but for beginners and most practical purposes, there are many better choices these days.
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:09 PM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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I had to install a loaded round indicator spring in mine as well. An easy fix but a bit tricky. There is a two-pronged small screwdriver like tool for doing this, but I didn't have one and it went just fine. If you took the spring out and stretched it, you know hoe easy it is. I'd recommend replacing it as it only takes a few minutes.
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  #121  
Old 05-28-2020, 06:18 PM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Most folks in the know colloquially refer to the tool you're speaking of as "the olive fork" due to its appearance. Apparently they used to actually come included with the gun back in the old days, so folks who bought vintage PPKs which included the original box often showed up on the Walther Forums asking what it was.
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Old 05-28-2020, 10:40 PM
Mike, SC Hunter Mike, SC Hunter is offline
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This is just a rhetorical question based on what I recall reading in recent years about the Walther PPK/S (or PPK,PP). I love this little Interarms PPK/S .380 I bought a few years back. But it seems with all the more high cap, powerful, lighter, smaller pocket autos out nowadays this gun is relegated to respected nostalgia as a classic gun but impractical compared to the new guns. Personally, I don't automatically think something loses it's usefulness just because of new technology. That's tools, cars, guns, etc. So I'll just stick with the old stuff and watch the world past me by.

Am I obsolete because I'm not 25 & trim anymore"?............Old stuff is GOOD stuff.
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:14 PM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
Most folks in the know colloquially refer to the tool you're speaking of as "the olive fork" due to its appearance. Apparently they used to actually come included with the gun back in the old days, so folks who bought vintage PPKs which included the original box often showed up on the Walther Forums asking what it was.
So that’s what that is!
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Old 05-29-2020, 07:04 AM
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Heck no ....... there's a new James Bond movie about every two years!!!!!

I'm a strong believer that new means "new" not necessarily "better" or "improved"

My stainless .380 PPK dates to the mid-1980s and still gets carried in a Milt Sparks Summer Special when I wear a suit or Tux..... or go to a James Bond movie!!!!!

My Smith 3913 and NL date to the early 90s and are my usual every day carry here in the Burbs or the Burgh.


No reason to change.

Still haven't found a reason to change.....................
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Old 05-29-2020, 07:10 AM
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Hmmm, let me see...

Compact - check
Slim - check
Ergonomic - check
Smooth - check
Reliable - check
Fit and finish - check
Accurate - check
Cool factor - check

Nope, nothing to see here, time to move along...
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Old 05-29-2020, 07:41 AM
Rivoak01 Rivoak01 is offline
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Originally Posted by Wyatt Burp View Post
This is just a rhetorical question based on what I recall reading in recent years about the Walther PPK/S (or PPK,PP). I love this little Interarms PPK/S .380 I bought a few years back. But it seems with all the more high cap, powerful, lighter, smaller pocket autos out nowadays this gun is relegated to respected nostalgia as a classic gun but impractical compared to the new guns. Personally, I don't automatically think something loses it's usefulness just because of new technology. That's tools, cars, guns, etc. So I'll just stick with the old stuff and watch the world past me by.


Well, when it’s not summer, I often carry a 1911. They been around over a hundred years. Is it obsolete? It works. I know how to shoot and clean it. I haven’t had any real problems with it that an extra part didn’t fix. It just ain’t the plastic everybody seems to think is so great nowadays.


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Old 05-29-2020, 11:15 AM
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It became obsolete long ago when this little guy rolled off the line. It packs a punch with 9x18, and oh ya it actually runs too Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?



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Old 05-29-2020, 11:31 AM
scoobysnacker scoobysnacker is offline
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
In .380 ACP the PPK, nor even it's larger frame offspring the PPK/S has what I would consider "mild" recoil. .32 ACP, maybe, (not sure, never shot a .32) .22LR, definitely, but not in .380 ACP.

I'm no lightweight when it comes to recoil either, I actually somewhat enjoy shooting firearms with some kick like my Taurus Judge Magnum and Mossberg 590 Shockwave, but my S&W PPK/S in .380 ACP is the definition of the term "snappy" with a sharp slap right to the web between the thumb and forefinger that even with the extended beavertail it will draw blood after a good 50+ rounds because it will eventually just beat the knuckle where the thumb meets the hand until it splits open. (Not as bad as slide bite leaving bloody track marks on your hand when firing an older model with a high grip, but it'll leave you with a little cut regardless.)
I think what you're describing is more of the design and layout.

Haven't shot a Walther in .380, but I've shot plenty of 9 Mak pistols. The only one that hurts to shoot is the FEG, which is the one that most closely mimics the Walther. The others don't bother me. Even in .32, that design is painful.
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Old 05-29-2020, 01:34 PM
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I think the folks who would label the Walther PPK "obsolete" are the same folks who consider Revolvers obsolete, or worse, the aforementioned lot who admittedly carry something like a SIG P238/P938 or a S&W M&P BG38, completely ignorant of the fact that what they're carrying isn't actually new, merely a reintroduction/reimagining of an old design which debuted prior to or around the same time as the PPK.

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Originally Posted by Mercs View Post
It became obsolete long ago when this little guy rolled off the line. It packs a punch with 9x18, and oh ya it actually runs too Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?
FEG made top notch Walther derivatives, which is evident considering that Walther themselves granted FEG a license to produce a lower cost alternate to the PPK/S which was basically just their APK-380 MkII dressed up with Walther rollmarks, grips, and smoother machining under the name "Walther PPK/E".

However, they are just that, derivatives of the same design, so to say that it rendered the firearms which it by and large copied makes little sense. Also, bear in mind that the Walther PPK is still in production, whereas last I heard, FEG doesn't even make firearms anymore.

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Originally Posted by scoobysnacker View Post
I think what you're describing is more of the design and layout.

Haven't shot a Walther in .380, but I've shot plenty of 9 Mak pistols. The only one that hurts to shoot is the FEG, which is the one that most closely mimics the Walther. The others don't bother me. Even in .32, that design is painful.
Oh, absolutely. Obviously there are a lot of other straight blowback operated pistols with fixed barrels which are softer-shooting than the Walther PP Series. The Walther PP Series was among the first of its kind, with a design dating back to 1929, so obviously newer designs have discovered ways to dampen the recoil.

Most modern examples such as the Bersa Thunder 380 are said to be substantially softer-shooting than even the original Walther PP in .380 ACP.
However, it's worth noting that the Walther PP Series was designed around the .32 ACP cartridge, while the .380 ACP chambering was a more powerful alternative, and if history has taught us anything, it's that chambering a firearm designed for one cartridge in a more powerful cartridge seldom turns out as well as the original, ergo it's to be expected that a firearm designed for .32 ACP is going to have sharper recoil than a firearm designed for 9x18 Makarov and chambered in 9x18 or .380 ACP.

That being said, straight blowback will almost always have snappier recoil than a locked breach, unless of course it's an unfair comparison like comparing the recoil between say a Hi-Point CM380 and a Ruger LCP, completely ignoring the differences in size/weight.
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Old 05-29-2020, 01:43 PM
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My PPKs (1957 Manurhin in 32 ACP, and a 1965 .380) are the guns I carry the most for defensive purposes. Although I own a Glock 42 (wich I like a lot, and is my only Glock), and a S&W M49 . There is just something special about the PPK, its ergonomics, its safety features...I dont really know, but the point is that I dont feel obsolete with any of them.
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Old 05-29-2020, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malph View Post
If i had to carry a handgun into combat, I'd take that Makarov any day of the week over the PPK.

The PPK looks nicer, and in the best examples are striking examples of superlative fit, finish and attention to detail.

The Makarov is none of those but has a much better chance of working under non-optimal conditions.

It is it's finicky nature that sours me on the PPK, not it's weight or caliber. .../

/...
I have a number of PP series pistols, and I've sold off a few more.



I have a pair of Ranger made PPK/S pistols that I have no reservations about carrying as they are accurate and reliable with 90 gr XTP ammunition. One of them is in the 12 O'clock position in the picture above.

I also have a pair of Austrian surplus police PP pistols in .32 ACP that are also very reliable. And the round performs well enough in it's 60 gr XTP iteration, although I prefer the .380 ACP. Of them is just below and to the right of the Ranger made PPK/S above.

The other two on the right are a Walther made military proofed PP in .22LR, the British L66A1 version, and a Umarex Walther PPK/S .22LR.

The three on the left side are FEG pistols based on the Walther PP series. Top left is an AP9S. It is a PP sized, steel framed commercial pistol chambered in 9mm Kurz (.380 ACP). Interarms started importing them as an alternative to the PP after Walther discontinued it's arrangement with Manurhin and Walther imports were shakey for a bit. They kept selling them as they sold well and were popular pistols. Interarms ordered them with a very high degree of polish and blue that is quite frankly better than the finish on Walther pistols.

The pistol below at left center is an APK9S. It's also a steel framed commercial pistol chambered in 9mm Kurz/.380 ACP, but using a shorter slide, similar to the PPK/S (thus the "K" for Kurz).

The pistol at bottom left is a KBI SMC. It's an FEG made pistol imported by KBI. It's a smaller PPK sized pistol chambered in .380 ACP but it uses an aluminum frame. It has the distinction of being the smallest pistol imported to the US since the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968. The finger extension is just long enough to meet the 4" height requirement. Unfortunately, KBI didn't spec them at the same level of quality and it's not reliable enough for me to consider it for self defense use.

Not all the FEG AP and APK pistols have the same level of quality.

Below top to bottom:

FEG AP9S
FEG APK9S
FEG APK7S (same as the APK9S, except chambered in 7.62 Browning (.32 ACP)



The bottom pistol was imported by TGI. The polish isn't as nice, the edges are sharper, and the finish isn't a deep blue.

However, all of them are extremely reliable, in part because the chamber dimensions are slightly more generous, making them far less picky about ammo than a PP series pistol.

The grip frames on them are slightly larger than the PP series pistols as they were upsized slightly to accommodate the 9mm Makarov round.

In fact, FEG made the AP9M and APK9M pistols, which are the same as the AP9S and APK9S, except for being chambered in 9mm Makarov.

7-8 years ago they were fairly common in very good to excellent to even like new in box condition for around $300 to $400. Now they are hard to find, even in just "good" condition.
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Old 05-29-2020, 04:05 PM
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I sure hope not!!!
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Old 05-29-2020, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ColbyBruce View Post
Not obsolete but there are a plethora of possible better firearms available in the same weight/size/power/price range so one would be wise to consider the various offerings.

I used a PP in these photos. If you compare it to a Shield and a Glock 43 you immediately see the Walther has serious competition.
Please and respectfully, define "better".
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Old 05-29-2020, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
Hahaha, I often think the same thing.

My days of shooting sassy bandits are behind me now, but should the need arise I’m sure one of my Colt Pocket Hammerlesses would be up to the task.



.32 or .380? Toss a coin.



I carry guns that I like, and that will do what I need them to do. I'm sure there are guns smaller and lighter and more powerful and with more rounds than either of these two 100 plus year old Colts. I don't care. I like these.

Obsolete? Not hardly. Chuck Heston had one in The Planet of the Apes!

Oh wow...with **three spare two tone magazines*** be still my little heart.....
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Old 05-29-2020, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyatt Burp View Post
This is just a rhetorical question based on what I recall reading in recent years about the Walther PPK/S (or PPK,PP). I love this little Interarms PPK/S .380 I bought a few years back. But it seems with all the more high cap, powerful, lighter, smaller pocket autos out nowadays this gun is relegated to respected nostalgia as a classic gun but impractical compared to the new guns. Personally, I don't automatically think something loses it's usefulness just because of new technology. That's tools, cars, guns, etc. So I'll just stick with the old stuff and watch the world past me by.

Beauty in blue steel I like it.
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Collects View Post
The Walther PPK/S that I once owned was a jam-o-matic, so I sold it.

A PPK that runs right is not obsolete, but there are plenty of arguably "better" carry pieces.

The Sig P365 weighs less than a PPK, carries 10 +1 rounds, has night sights, is a 9 mm, not a .380 ACP, and does not jam. I consider a Sig P365 to be a significantly better carry piece than a Walther PPK - however, everybody is entitled to their own opinion on this issue.
All of this ridiculous talk about capacity! I suppose I could pose this elsewhere, but, NOT counting LEO, how many of you/us out there has been in a gun fight where we have needed 6-8-10 OR any rounds of capacity????? I'm growing sick and tired of this "capacity" discussion!!!
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Old 05-29-2020, 09:00 PM
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All of this ridiculous talk about capacity! I suppose I could pose this elsewhere, but, NOT counting LEO, how many of you/us out there has been in a gun fight where we have needed 6-8-10 OR any rounds of capacity????? I'm growing sick and tired of this "capacity" discussion!!!
mod34, it's refreshing to read some practical comments from someone that's not an obsessive easy chair gunfighter.
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Old 05-29-2020, 09:48 PM
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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All of this ridiculous talk about capacity! I suppose I could pose this elsewhere, but, NOT counting LEO, how many of you/us out there has been in a gun fight where we have needed 6-8-10 OR any rounds of capacity????? I'm growing sick and tired of this "capacity" discussion!!!
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mod34, it's refreshing to read some practical comments from someone that's not an obsessive easy chair gunfighter.
Even for LEOs large numbers of rounds fired are rare in self defense shoots.

The FBI found that 75% of all agent involved shoots were over and done in 3 shots or less. About 95% of LEO involved shoots involve 5 shots or less. Most of the rest involve situations where multiple officers are involved - usually also involving multiple assailants.

Don't get me wrong, LEOs need to have the capacity for that small percentage of incidents. But the point people miss on forums like this is that arem citizens do not (or at least should not) go looking for trouble in dark and scary places or getting themselves into situations where they are now facing multiple armed assailants.

The should be using good SA to avoid situations like that, and if they end up on one anyway, the firearm should be employed to cover their retreat out of the situation.

Are there armed citizen self defense situations that require more than 5 rounds? Sure. But not many. And as the number of rounds increases to 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, that percentage gets a LOT smaller.

A PPK/S in .380 ACP will hold 7+1 and there are very, very, very, few situations that can't be resolved with 8 rounds, where 9 or 10, all the way up to 18 will make a difference.
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Old 05-29-2020, 10:27 PM
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I recall a few years back I posted a thread about my Bulgarian Makarov and me wanting to carry it concealed.

I remember more than a few curt remarks torwards the “commie gun”, and that people here would rather carry their “tried and true” 1911s, Colts, and Smiths.

It seems whenever modern alternatives are presented, people on this forum (read: old geezers) will automatically revert to older and more familiar guns at all costs. Progress gives way to who’s got the prettiest, oldest, most expensive gun. The most photogenic or nostalgic morph into the most effective.

What a load of bollocks.

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Old 05-29-2020, 10:36 PM
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Been carrying a Walter PP .380 since 1972. Gun control is hitting what you intend to shoot be it critter or human varmit. Spray and pray of the high cap pistols goes against stats. The majority of defensive shootings are up close and personal and over in seconds.
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Old 05-29-2020, 10:44 PM
JayFramer JayFramer is offline
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Been carrying a Walter PP .380 since 1972. Gun control is hitting what you intend to shoot be it critter or human varmit. Spray and pray of the high cap pistols goes against stats. The majority of defensive shootings are up close and personal and over in seconds.
And here we go! The lower capacity pistol automatically bestows superior marksmanship to the user. A “hi cap plastic fantastic” GUARANTEES spray and pray and reckless shooting!! If only they could fit 3 or 4 rounds in a snubby .38, nobody would ever miss then!!


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  #142  
Old 05-29-2020, 11:29 PM
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Default The PPK is Still a Class Act...

I carry either a S&W Shield 9mm V2.0 or a Sig P365. But I have no intention of letting go of my 1967 blue Walther PPK .380. My father carried it before I got it. It is still very concealable and IMO, a good CCW. It is a bit heavy, but I find it to be incredibly accurate. Do I prefer to carry the 9mm Shield or P365? Yes, most definitely, but the PPK is still an option for some of my activities.
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Old 05-30-2020, 12:17 AM
Wyatt Burp Wyatt Burp is offline
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In the mid 80s there were Shotgun News ads selling surplus Walther .32 PPs with a holster and maybe cleaning tools. They were very low priced. Mike Venturino wrote an article about his. Probably loading cast bullets. Then in 1988 I was in Livingston MT and visited him. Sitting at his kitchen table drinking a Coke I saw that very Walther in a certain place for home defense. This was back when Yellowstone was on fire. Oh. He showed me his Triplelock Target, too.
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Old 05-30-2020, 02:14 AM
Himhawkeye Himhawkeye is offline
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Default My PP

My PP that I still love. Made after the war when Germany was banned from making guns under licensing to Manurhin in France.
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Old 05-30-2020, 04:12 AM
Meyersgold Meyersgold is offline
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Originally Posted by Wyatt Burp View Post
When my son left the Marines in 2005 I bought him a used Beretta 92 as a gift, but he said he’d rather have my 3913. So I gave him it instead. Since I only really like older stuff, the 3913 seems modern to me. My friend looks at my nickel 39-2 as an antique!
I have the same issue with my nickel 39-2 and 59 along with my 59 no dash, 645 and 745. The range rats like at me funny because all of my guns are metal and wood, not plastic.
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  #146  
Old 05-30-2020, 02:13 PM
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Echo40 Echo40 is offline
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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All of this ridiculous talk about capacity! I suppose I could pose this elsewhere, but, NOT counting LEO, how many of you/us out there has been in a gun fight where we have needed 6-8-10 OR any rounds of capacity????? I'm growing sick and tired of this "capacity" discussion!!!
I'm sure that somebody will be along shortly to post links to news articles complete with reports of gunfights with some meth-head who took 50+ rounds of 5.56 to drop because every bullet just happened to miss a vital, as if this is by any means a common occurrence and not something all but unheard of, hence why it made headlines in the first place.
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Old 05-30-2020, 02:43 PM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is offline
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I showed a 40-somthing who EDC is a SiG 365 one of my Browning MkIII HPs with Millet front sight ( like on the Practical) and Spegel Grips......reaction was "where's the de-cocker" ...... pretty ho-hum...."that's nice"

And he's considers himself a badass tacticoool "gun guy"......... from "19-Glock , of the Common Era " to present...... all in basic tupperware black!!!!!!

Actually a nice guy on the County SAR Team!

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  #148  
Old 05-30-2020, 06:27 PM
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pomonapete pomonapete is offline
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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DR. NO chapter 2 "Choice of Weapons"

I read the books in the 7th-8th grade after the movie Dr. No changed the world. in 1991 I vacationed in Jamaica, rented a deathtrap motorcycle, and found Fleming's Goldeneye estate in Orcabessa (misplaced on tourist maps), was allowed in by the cleaning lady and photoed the place.

guess I was a bit of a fan. of the first three movies only. anyway, in chapter 2 Bond is relieved of his sawed off, taped, skeleton gripped 7.65 Baretta, and given the PPK in .32.

this made many of us melt for the weapon for decades.

the interesting part for the sake of this forum is when M asks for something bigger, the armourer suggests a Smith and Wesson Centennial Airweight hammerless in .38 SW special. he says it carries only 5 for weight purposes but, after they're gone, someone's dead.

this then is the root of my .38 special infatuation, no doubt.

as to the Walther, I always scratch my head when people discuss shoot-out parameters with their guns. I do not intend to shoot anybody, I intend to show it and watch the bad guys disappear.

of course, bluffing with a toy or not being able to actually handle it is a mistake. but I own a gun or two for home defense expressly to show it and point it if the need arises. only under temporary loss of civic order would I feel steeled to possibly actually shoot someone.

so the Walther PPK is perfect. feels good, looks good, fun to shoot at the range, makes you feel like 007. what's not to like?
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Old 05-31-2020, 02:24 AM
seldon14 seldon14 is offline
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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Originally Posted by mod34 View Post
Please and respectfully, define "better".
Sig P365
smaller, lighter, more rounds, more substantial caliber, lower recoil, better sites, better trigger, more reliable.

The Walther is still a perfectly acceptable, functional carry but acting like there arn't better options is about as silly as thinking there arn't better options for an SMG than the Thompson.

I carry a steel frame 5 shot revolver most of the time, because it's what I like, and I shoot it well, but my Shield is absolutely. A better carry gun.
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Old 05-31-2020, 10:37 AM
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BB57 BB57 is offline
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Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now? Is my Walther obsolete just becasuse there's newer, lighter, more powerful guns now?  
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And here we go! The lower capacity pistol automatically bestows superior marksmanship to the user. A “hi cap plastic fantastic” GUARANTEES spray and pray and reckless shooting!! If only they could fit 3 or 4 rounds in a snubby .38, nobody would ever miss then!!

I agree, folks tend to make that assumption that more rounds mean accuracy goes to pot.

To be fair however, there is a grain of truth in that in a few different contexts:

1) When police officers switched from revolvers to semi-autos the average number of rounds fired per officer in an engagement went up. Slightly. Research showed averages for rounds fired by officers increased from 2.3 to 2.6 with revolvers to averages around 3.2 rounds to 3.7 rounds for officers with semi-auto pistols. Not exactly spray and pray due to having a larger capacity magazine.

That said the average police officer shoots badly and real world hit percentages average around 15%-20%, and dropping to around 10%-12% at ranges over 7 yards. Some departments do much better - around 50% for Baltimore - due to much better training separate from type of firearm used.

Overall however the hit percentage situation has only gotten worse with semi-auto service pistols, if for no other reason than the slightly higher number of rounds fired resulting in more misses and lower percentages.

2) Similar to most kids focusing more on marksmanship with a single shot than with a semi-auto, or even bolt action, repeater, many of the shooters I see at the range with high capacity semi-auto pistols seem to be a lot less concerned with accuracy than the guys I see at the range with revolvers or single stack semi-auto pistols.

Some of that is due to the knowledge that the number of rounds is limited.

3) There is a degree of truth behind the statement that guns like a J frame snubby are "experts guns". You'll find people who are proficient with them shooting small groups at social shooting distance ranges and beyond. Those shooters do not see a short barrel and short sight radius as an impediment to accuracy - or an excuse for poor accuracy.

Then again, you'll find the opposite in the form of the folks who insist that a snub nose revolver is only meant for short range, point and shoot engagements. I always have visions of Edward G. Robinson pushing his revolver forward with each shot in some gangster movie when I hear this.

-----

It's also more complicated than just magazine capacity.

I see a lot of folks on the internet and in the real world who are fans of carrying a light weight alloy J frame like the 340 with .357 Magnum ammo. I have yet to meet someone who shoots one of these well, and few who can shoot one well with .38+P ammo.

Smaller and lighter isn't always better, or at least is only better within limits.

The Kimber Micro weighs half as much as the PPK/S, but has a perceived recoil that is very similar due to the locked breech versus blow back design spreading the recoil out over a lightly longer period of time and using a lighter recoil spring. The Kimber Micro is also smaller and easier to conceal. That's a pretty solid argument for "newer is better" (although it's odd to call a miniature reheat of the 1911 design, "new" in comparison to the 1929-1931 PP and PPK design).

However, on the negative side the 2.75" barrel in the Kimber Micro results in reduced velocity compared to the 3.4" PPK and PPK/S barrels - 50 to 70 fps based on load - in a marginal cartridge where 50 to 70 fps makes a difference.

On the smaller and lighter isn't better side of the coin, I see shooters who like to carry a sub compact pistol in 9mm Luger, like the Kimber Micro 9 or the Glock 43. Like the airweight snub nose revolvers, I don't see many people who shoot them well.

In general, I see much better accuracy from most shooters with the .380 ACP Kimber Micro or Glock 42.

Too much cartridge in too small of a gun tends to have significant detrimental effects on accuracy.
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