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  #1  
Old 05-15-2019, 01:09 PM
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Default 1911s like JMB intended

I like 1911s. I like high quality stuff. I’ve got a plain Jane Colt 1911, blued. Its in great condition, and when new, it rattled in the slide to frame fit. It rattles loud: ‘smack-smack-smack’ sound when lightly shaken. The barrel locks up tight. It’s accurate and reliable.

I recently bought a Dan Wesson Heritage. This screams quality. Slide to frame clearance is tight. It’s so tight that the manual specified a 500 round break in, with a special oil provided, with cleaning every 50 rounds. On the forums one will find all sorts of problems with galling.

Why have the top makers of JMB’s design decided to no longer make the rattle inducing clearance designed into the pistol? My Colt will work in a trench, in a desert, and in a rice paddy. My DW? I don’t know. Same goes for all the top end stuff.

Anyone else prefer the Colt specs to the super tight stuff today?

Last edited by American1776; 05-15-2019 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:20 PM
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For military, clearance offered cycling reliability.

I don't need or want a gun so tight you have to "break it in"

I like 'em to work straight out of the box with no concern of reliability.
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:26 PM
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My fairly new Colt GOV. is pretty rattle free, slide to frame fit is good, snug but not tight....older Colts I'm sure were a little looser. Mine needed no break in. Now Wesson's and a lot of the top end guns are pretty tight, not something I need or want.
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:40 PM
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Back in the 80's I built a bunch of "Parts" 1911's. A few rattled (my personal gun does not!) but most didn't. On a canoe trip my Mini-14 and self built 1911 got full of sand, so when it was safe I shot a mag through each to see if the would function. Both functioned fine! My mine never would hit anything so accuracy didn't change. When I built 1911's, I guaranteed them to feed Ball ammo, and I tested every one of them for accuracy: 7 shots on a paper plate at 25 yards! My personal 1911 did about 4" at 25 yards, after the trip and a detailed cleaning, it still shot the same. That UGLY 45 is still my personal full sized 1911, and it still will shoot, but now I can't get the groups out of it! I never did the slimy mud bath test, but I'm confident all the 1911's I built would pass.

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Old 05-15-2019, 01:40 PM
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A wise YouTuber by the name of Batjac J.W. once said that it was the loose fit of the original 1911s which kept them in Military service for the better part of a decade.

A common misconception is that a tight fit is conducive towards the reliability of a firearm, but that's a half-truth. Tight tolerances are beneficial towards reliability, but tight clearances are more often than not detrimental towards reliability, hence why some of the most reliable firearms out there have a very loose fit to them.

The root of the misconception is the theory that a tight fit keeps dirt/debris out of the action, and while it is true that a tighter fit does help keep debris out, the issue is that once debris inevitably finds it's way inside, it often gets trapped in there then packed into place when the slide cycles causing malfunctions to occur.
However, a firearm with a looser fit often allows for debris to be expelled out of the firearm when fired.

In addition, folks don't seem to understand that while a well lubricated firearm with a tight fit is beneficial, firearms with a looser fit are better off lightly lubed so that dirt/debris won't stick. So sometimes you'll get someone who's used to tightly fit firearms needing generous lubrication for reliable function will buy a firearm with a looser fit then hose the internals down, then experience a lot of malfunctions at the range because it gets all fouled up inside from debris sticking to the wet surfaces, leading them to believe that the firearm is unreliable due to the loose fit.

TL;DR: Gaps between the slide and frame may allow dirt/debris in, but it also provides a passage for it to be blown out when fired.
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:01 PM
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There is no reason for a well built ie. fairly tight fitting 1911 not to function properly. Due to CNC machining of today, most factory built 1911's are pretty tight fitting out of the box compared to those of old. I have had 4 total customs built for me over the years. All have functioned flawlessly. If properly lubricated and with changing out the springs as required, they should run just fine.
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Old 05-15-2019, 02:27 PM
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@OP,

When my permits come in, I will have 4 1911s. My Colt government model was combat ready from day 1. My Springfield Trophy Match I wouldn't consider to be a combat gun. Hopefully, my Ruger commander and my ATI commander will be combat reliable with little break-in.

In my opinion, a combat oriented 1911 should require minimal break-in.
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:51 PM
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I guess my tight Dan Wesson & SIG 1911s have never looked at the internet forums...
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:42 PM
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There is a difference between self defense accuracy, (4-6" at 10 yards or less), and Precision shooting, such as Bullseye where you need 1.5 - 2" at 25 yards to be competitive.
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:36 PM
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Sloppy fit does not equal reliable any more than it means poor accuracy. You can have fit, finish, accuracy and reliability. It usually costs more but for me it has been very worth it. As far as what JMB would want, I feel like he was a man constantly improving his designs. Hard to think he would ever stop tinkering.
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:42 PM
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Dan Wesson is without a doubt the best production 1911 made today. Others may have the prestige of their name stamped on the gun, but DW quietly produces an entire line 1911’s that can only be surpassed by true custom guns.
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Richard View Post
There is a difference between self defense accuracy, (4-6" at 10 yards or less), and Precision shooting, such as Bullseye where you need 1.5 - 2" at 25 yards to be competitive.
Thanks for saving me all the typing!
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:16 PM
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I posted above but I can't believe the stuff that I see about 1911's and the loose fit vs. tight fit ****. If the gun is well built with dependability as a deciding factor then there should be no issue, Period. A gook custom builder like I mentioned will not let the gun out of his shop if it is not totally reliable.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:19 PM
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Two Wilson Combat's; no rattles, no failures. Build them right and they will work.

Also have two Colt's, one rattles, one doesn't. Both work well, but the quieter one is more accurate.

Last edited by Bullet Bob; 05-15-2019 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:22 PM
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I’ve shot WWII era 1911’s when qualifying in the military. They were sloppy loose. At 10 yards, accuracy wasn’t a problem. Nobody knew any different.

Full length guide rods were “invented” to make them more accurate. So far nobody has convinced me that they are.

People have tried for decades to make the 1911 more reliable and more accurate. Most of them failed or were simply done to convince buyers to buy one. They failed to realize that the 1911 was designed to be accurate and reliable if and only if quality components are used. The rest is up to the shooter.
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:38 PM
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Does this qualify?

(1943 Ithaca M1911A1, 5 rounds at 5 yards)
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Old 05-16-2019, 06:10 AM
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My Colt 1991A1 of 90's vintage was a rattle trap and not particularly reliable out of the box (extractor clocking issue). Once fitted with a match barrel/bushing on an oversized frame it has no discernible movement between the barrel, bushing, slide, and frame. The only thing that rattles is the grip safety. It is perfectly reliable and gives my 22-4 a run for its money accuracy wise.

Would it still function after being dumped in the mud or sand? I don't know, but I wouldn't want to find out on purpose, either.
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:17 AM
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The generous tolerances between slide and receiver in the original 1911 design were there for a couple of reasons. It was believed that loose tolerances would allow the weapon to continue to function even with powder residue, dirt, and even mud in the action. The second reason was the limitations of machinery used to mass produce items. The loose tolerances allowed for a fair degree of variation from one machine to another and from one factory to another.


The concept of the tightly fitted 1911 came from target competition shooting, specifically, bullseye shooting. Shooters wanting the highest degree of accuracy wanted pistols with superb triggers, very tight lockup of the barrel and a slide and frame that were matched and had just enough clearances to cycle.


Modern consumers still equate super tight tolerances with quality and accuracy, but a wartime 1911 that rattles, but has a good trigger and barrel lockup can produce impressive accuracy and still be utterly reliable under all sorts of conditions.
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:26 AM
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I believe Mr. Brown said that they don't have to be tight, just right.
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:39 AM
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I had a 1982 Colt Combat Government Model, a Kimber, an American Classic, and currently a Rock Island. None of them rattled and all were quite accurate and perfectly reliable clean or dirty, the latter two guns were also fairly inexpensive. I never tried dipping them in mud but I believe they would still be as reliable as about any gun out there.
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:50 AM
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How often do you find yourself in a rice patty field or deep in mud?
Tight=Accuracy
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:07 AM
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Military 1911s are loose because one of the requirements was that all parts had to be completely interchangeable, across all manufacturers and their equipment.

A bucket of parts from X pistols, could be reassembled into X working pistols, without regard to who made the individual parts.

Without that requirement, can anyone here say that was really JMB's intent? Looking at his other designs, which are still in use today and are not designed to be loose, I have my doubts.

My Rock River is tight, needed no breakin period, shoots under 3" at 50 yds with hardball ammo according to the test target, and has never malfunctioned even after over 1000 rounds between cleaning.
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:38 AM
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One reason that accurized 1911 type pistols get jams is because they are trying to feed and function ammo that is highly specialized. The pistol was designed to shoot and function with 230 gr. FMJ ammo traveling at 830-850 fps. When one puts 185 gr. or 200 gr. semi-wadcutter lead bullets or 185 gr. JHP bullets into the mix, a GI gun won't function reliably. Another thing to consider is that match shooters shoot a hell of a lot of ammo between cleanings. There are modifications which are a big improvement for the 1911 even when shooting ball ammo, i.e. enlarged ejection port, better sights, smoother and lighter trigger pull. Having a good barrel to barrel bushing fit is an improvement and taking a lot of slop out of the slide to frame fit helps. Regarding 5 yard groups...Well, if a determined knife wielding attacker is that close to you when you shoot...you are likely mortally wounded or dead. Just a tidbit, a departed friend of mine had been tunnel ratting and was taking a break, sitting next to a tree. He still had his 1911a1 in his hand when he heard something and encountered an AK-47 wielding NVA soldier. My buddy reacted first and shot the enemy in the head with his 1911a1. When he got back to the states he bought and always had on hand a Colt Gold Cup National Match. He wasn't worried that a tighter gun would fail him.
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Old 05-16-2019, 10:48 AM
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There are numerous methods of fitting the frame to the slide. Some require more time or skill, others require breaking-in, and still more don't last as long. All can be said to have been done "properly", it's simply a matter of finding a pistol made in a way that suits your intended purpose.
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Old 05-19-2019, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
Dan Wesson is without a doubt the best production 1911 made today. Others may have the prestige of their name stamped on the gun, but DW quietly produces an entire line 1911’s that can only be surpassed by true custom guns.
Right on my brother, and they only make about 7000 guns per year. How many do the other big name make per MONTH? It's probably more than that.
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Old 05-20-2019, 07:59 AM
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Right on my brother, and they only make about 7000 guns per year. How many do the other big name make per MONTH? It's probably more than that.
Specifically, what makes the Dan Wesson 1911 pistols better than any others? If you would address the accuracy (at least 25 yards), reliability, internal components, trigger job, sights, fit and finish of the frame and slide, I'd appreciate it.
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Old 05-20-2019, 10:45 AM
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I know some people whose brains rattle when they talk, yet they manage to function well enough in the real world.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:00 AM
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I'm 100% certain that this gun is exactly like John Moses Browning intended...

John

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Old 05-20-2019, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johngalt View Post
Military 1911s are loose because one of the requirements was that all parts had to be completely interchangeable, across all manufacturers and their equipment.

A bucket of parts from X pistols, could be reassembled into X working pistols, without regard to who made the individual parts.

Without that requirement, can anyone here say that was really JMB's intent? Looking at his other designs, which are still in use today and are not designed to be loose, I have my doubts.

My Rock River is tight, needed no breakin period, shoots under 3" at 50 yds with hardball ammo according to the test target, and has never malfunctioned even after over 1000 rounds between cleaning.
+1. Colt held the original manufacturing rights, then WW1 came along and licensing agreements allowed several others (Remington-UMC, Springfield Armory, North American Arms) to manufacture pistols to meet wartime demands.

Later WW2 brought similar arrangements, with pistols made by Remington-Rand, Ithaca, Union Switch & Signal, and Singer. Additionally multiple subcontractors produced parts for those pistol makers (Savage, High Standard, and a dozen others).

In all cases one of the contract specifications required that every part in every pistol be interchangeable with every other pistol, regardless of manufacturer. This required rather loose manufacturing tolerances.

It was not until about 1960 when competition shooters started the trend toward hand-fitted pistols to achieve the closest possible fitting and most consistent barrel lock-up, and that trend has transferred to the general public as kind of a mystical mantra.

Many of us tend to view these matters in light of one single handgun for our own personal use, and that is what today's manufacturers are providing. I seriously doubt that every part in every pistol by every manufacturer is completely interchangeable now (thus few, if any, modern 1911-style pistols are truly "mil-spec").

Last edited by LoboGunLeather; 05-20-2019 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
Dan Wesson is without a doubt the best production 1911 made today. Others may have the prestige of their name stamped on the gun, but DW quietly produces an entire line 1911’s that can only be surpassed by true custom guns.
Except today, names like Nighthawk, Wilson, Baer and Brown aren't true "customs"; they're semi-production guns and while fine examples of great computer manufacturing and hand final finishing, I cannot justify the price difference for the incremental increase in accuracy.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:40 AM
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Thanks for saving me all the typing!
This is NOT a political post! But it seems to parallel the arguments of social justice warriors wanting to strip the founding fathers from memorials just because some were slave owners!

That said, remember what the acceptance standards were when the M1905 evolved into the M1911. As I remember reading, wasn't the M1911 expected to hit a number 2 wash tub at 50 yards, while the Garand was expected to hit the same number 2 wash tub at 200 yards?

At the time of adoption, the accuracy standards were rather liberal while parts interchangeability was paramount! Remember to looking at the standards that St John was expected to work within!
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:48 AM
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Gatekeeping 1911s, how very 2019.
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Old 05-20-2019, 12:23 PM
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Made to military spec (i.e, loose) = Reliable
Made tight may be less reliable but is more precise.


Accuracy is in the hands of the shooter.....
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Old 05-20-2019, 12:48 PM
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My 2 cents is that when people pay big bucks for a custom / semi-custom 1911, they correlate a super tight fit with quality.

My experience with 1911's is that a 1911 with a case of the "rattles" can still be very accurate as long as a quality barrel is used, and there is proper / tight fit between the link / locking lugs and the barrel bushing. Every thing else is just gravy.

I own several "tight" 1911's that are nothing but reliable, an a couple that rattle and are less than 100 percent reliable, so tight done right is not a bad thing. That said, I have never purposely filled my guns with sand / dirt to test reliability. Frankly, if I expected to have a working gun exposed to such conditions, I would probably carry a Glock.

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Old 05-20-2019, 12:59 PM
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While I can't speak to the accuracy of the military 1911A1 straight from Remington-Rand, Colt, et al., I do know of a real-world story.

The USMC expert pistol cutoff was 330/400 (40 shots, 10 ring target) but was changed to 345/400 soon after the adoption of the M9. The brand new Berettas were more accurate than the 40+ year old .45s.

IMO, it comes down to buyers. People equate a tight gun with good quality and a loose gun with poor quality. GI Joe doesn't have any purchasing power, he gets what he gets. Also, with handheld military weapons, reliability is always going to be more important than accuracy. There are few, inside the military and outside of it, that can outshoot their weapons under stress.
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Old 05-20-2019, 03:16 PM
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Colt made two basic starter 1911s.
Government Model.
Gold Cup
Each type has a purpose.
Getting one to do everything has limitations.

A degree of looseness compared to accuracy poll?

Last edited by Imissedagain; 05-20-2019 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 05-20-2019, 05:17 PM
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I have 2 1911s, one low priced and the other very high priced. Both shoot well with no problems. The ATI (low priced) doesn't rattle except for the grip safety making a little noise, but I did go through a definite break in period of around 600 rounds. The second one I bought, which was a couple months ago is an Alchemy Custom Weaponry Prime Elite. I've only had it to the range 1 time so far and ran around 200 rounds through it with zero problems. The ACW is noticeably more accurate than the ATI as it should be, and has an excellent trigger on it. The slide to frame fit seems to be "just right" on it, as it should be with a custom build. Will it shoot if I dump it in the mud? Don't know and don't care as it's not going there to start with.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BE Mike View Post
Specifically, what makes the Dan Wesson 1911 pistols better than any others? If you would address the accuracy (at least 25 yards), reliability, internal components, trigger job, sights, fit and finish of the frame and slide, I'd appreciate it.
All parts machined from bar stock. No MIM parts. Each gun is assembled by one gunsmith. No assembly lines where a person installs one part and passes it on to the next.

Accuracy is superb as well as outstanding fit and finish. Triggers are also very well done. No creep or grittiness with minimal over travel.

Sights on carry guns are normally Novak low profile with tritium front sight. Magazines are also first rate. Either Mecgar or Checkmate.

All Series 70.

They are priced right considering what you get and what other 1911 manufacturers offer in the same price range. And most of their guns are beautiful. Not over done and over hyped like others.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:08 PM
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Maybe I just scored a particularly good one but I have an early 2015 mfg Springfield Armory RO that is the best 1911 I’ve owned (and I have a Colt and a custom). Lots of solid 1911s out there these days to fit all budgets.
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Old 05-20-2019, 09:42 PM
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They are priced right considering what you get and what other 1911 manufacturers offer in the same price range. And most of their guns are beautiful. Not over done and over hyped like others.
No front cocking serrations, no tactical buzzwords or huge billboards emblazoned on the slide. They got that brushed polish right down to an art.

Ya don't see many of this model in Kalifornistan since it's not on our not-too-unsafe roster.

Every American should own a 1911 and a .357 Magnum wheelgun.


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Old 05-21-2019, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
All parts machined from bar stock. No MIM parts. Each gun is assembled by one gunsmith. No assembly lines where a person installs one part and passes it on to the next.

Accuracy is superb as well as outstanding fit and finish. Triggers are also very well done. No creep or grittiness with minimal over travel.

Sights on carry guns are normally Novak low profile with tritium front sight. Magazines are also first rate. Either Mecgar or Checkmate.

All Series 70.

They are priced right considering what you get and what other 1911 manufacturers offer in the same price range. And most of their guns are beautiful. Not over done and over hyped like others.
Thanks for the information. Accuracy is a word thrown around easily these days. Some folks taut 5 yds. as a test of accuracy, while others demand much greater distances.
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Old 05-21-2019, 05:12 PM
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No front cocking serrations, no tactical buzzwords or huge billboards emblazoned on the slide. They got that brushed polish right down to an art. ................
That is another thing I love about the Prime Elite. None of that gaudy stuff on it either, but done in carbon steel with a beautiful blue job. The only thing they added is a tasteful script of the company name and their logo design on one side.



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Old 05-21-2019, 06:31 PM
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My Sistema 1927 rattles, but it’s more than acceptable accurate, it wasn’t shot much by the time I got it, but it’s an early one of the Argentinians.
The Colt Wiley Clapp Compact Commander is a little loose, but it’s accurate, and seems reliable (new acquisition).
The Colt Officers doesn’t rattle, and does the paper plate at forty feet no sweat.
The Kimber rcp II with no sights does what it’s supposed to. It doesn’t rattle. and it’s an excellent carry.
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Old 05-21-2019, 07:08 PM
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Has anyone seen/held a factory fresh military spec M1911/A1 from WW1/2 to say, without question, that "military spec" 1911s do or don't rattle out of the box? How about commercial 1911s from the same era?

How about the new production, factory fresh M1911 M45A1 CQBP? I'll bet they don't rattle, when new, rattle with use.


On a related note, I know M9s didn't/don't rattle when factory fresh, but rattle with use.
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Old 05-21-2019, 07:14 PM
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Yes, 100%, and absolutely.

Louis Awerbuck also was big on this in his writings. Those “sloppy” Colt’s run. The difference of an inch or two at 25 yards means NOTHING for a combat handgun, and that’s what the 1911 is. It’s a combat pistol. It should have clearances.
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Old 05-22-2019, 01:36 AM
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I shoot my Colt Series 70 Gold Cup better than any other pistol I own. I can shoot my Plain Jane Gov't model almost as well even though it has never been modified or worked on to make it more accurate. I lost count of how many rounds I have put through my GC but it is well over 25,000 by now (manufactured in the early 1970's). It has never failed me and the only parts I've changed are the Rebound Spring from time to time and the original Disconnector because it started to make an audible click just when the trigger was pulled. Other than that, it is still Factory.

The "designer" line up of Ed Brown's, Les Behr, Kimber, Wilson Combat, etc. etc. are all finely made very high quality guns but will NOT function reliably with reloaded ammunition (just too tight) - at least as they come out of the box. If a gun won't shoot my reloads I have no use for it! Although I shoot the high end designer guns very well, I can shoot my Colt Gold Cup just as well and it NEVER has a problem digesting hand loads - never!

A new Colt GC Series 70 (still currently being made in the original 1970's configuration) is very high quality, accurate and works 100% of the time right out of the box - no excuses. I have 4 team members I shoot with that have purchased NIB Series 70, Colt GC's over the last few years and they are all excellent, reliable and accurate with hand loads - no break in period required for reliability or accuracy! It's Colts for me.
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Old 05-22-2019, 07:09 AM
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JMB's original design was much tighter but the military didn't want it that way, they are the ones that are responsible for the "mil-specs" and it was for ease of repair in the field and reliability too, accuracy was less important to the military and they were willing to make the sacrifice. When Colt introduced the "Government model" to the civilian market they tightened the tolerances back up a little bit.

Accuracy depends mostly on the fit between the mating lugs on the slide and barrel, why people want a super tight fit between the frame and slide is beyond me. That is not to say a particular example will not shoot accurately without it, sometimes they line up pretty well on their own and only show a problem if dirty.

I also don't know why manufacturers are listing pages of different "models" when they usually only have different accessories. I guess they are capitalizing on the "lazy" consumer that can't use a file or drop some parts in.

I remember a lot of people buying brand new Colt GM's that wouldn't function out of the box. The design works but sloppy craftsmanship isn't acceptable and that is the "norm" for modern gunmaking with their idea of making it as cheap as they can, sell it for as much as they can and if it doesn't work we'll worry about it later but why waste profits on making them all right to start with.

And remember, the military issued them primarily to non-combat personnel. If you really need a gun, and compactness isn't an issue, don't choose a handgun.
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imissedagain View Post
Colt made two basic starter 1911s.
Government Model.
Gold Cup
Each type has a purpose.
Getting one to do everything has limitations.

A degree of looseness compared to accuracy poll?
This was the way it used to be before almost every gun manufacturer started making 1911s. Either a plain Jane Gov’t or the GC. I think it was only after the custom shops started selling custom guns based on a base Colt or a Norinco in the 90s that manufacturers realized there is a market for custom and semi custom 1911s. Now there is a flood of custom guns. What did JMB intend? I think he intended to design a basic military pistol that was easier to use, and certainly easier to reload, on horseback than a DA revolver or SAA.
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