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Old 06-02-2019, 10:12 PM
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Long story short, someone posted up a really nice old Colt Officer's Target .38 and I can't get it out of my head. What a great pairing with my K-38!

I've found a few I have my eye on, along with their fixed sight Police Positive brethren. Anything I should look out for that's special to Colts?
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Old 06-02-2019, 10:29 PM
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...Police Positives are a smaller frame size than the Officer's Model...

...Police Positive "D" frame...



...Officer's Model "E" frame...



...Official Police is the same frame size as the Officer's Model...

...these old Colt revolvers were timed so that the hand held the cylinder against the cylinder stop with the trigger at it's rearmost position...
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Old 06-02-2019, 10:56 PM
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I suppose these ones I'm looking at are PPSes since they're .38 Special.

I did know about the size difference, just me being lazy with my post. From what I understand, there are no PPS revolvers with adjustable sights; the PP Targets are in lesser calibers.

Thanks for mentioning their (potentially) weird timing issues vs. S&Ws.
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Old 06-02-2019, 11:11 PM
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The early Officers Model was based on the same action as Colt's New Army. Easily identified since the cylinder turns counter clockwise, and has a "extra" set of locking notches in the cylinder. Marked DA 38 the ones with cylinders bored straight through were intended for .38 Long Colt aka .38 Government while the cylinders intended for .38 Special have a "step"

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Old 06-02-2019, 11:47 PM
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If you have a K-38 and you want a comparable Colt 38 to go with it, you will want the I or E frame Colt Target revolvers. Not a Police Positive as those are comparable to a S&W J or I frame (smaller)
You K-38 is most likely post war, so you should look at the Colt Officers Model Match or Officers Model Target. They were made up to 1968 on they Python style lock work. Around 1969 they evolved into the MkIII series which is a different gun completely and not as desirable.
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Old 06-03-2019, 09:00 AM
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Here's a link with more info:

Officer's Model
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Old 06-03-2019, 02:11 PM
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PP is 38 Short and Police Positive Special is a 38 Special. Often people say Police Positive when it's actually a PPS.
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Old 06-03-2019, 02:21 PM
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...my Police Positive Special (38 Special) from 1919...

...100 years old...and the year my Dad was born...



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Old 06-03-2019, 02:36 PM
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PP is 38 Short and Police Positive Special is a 38 Special. Often people say Police Positive when it's actually a PPS.
Careful. The Police Positive was chambered in .38 New Police, which is dimensionally identical to .38 S&W.

That is NOT the same as .38 Short, which is a short version of .38 (Long) Colt and thus .38 Special.

To confuse everybody, the barrels of pre-WW II DA Colts just said 38, no matter whether it was .38 Colt, .38 NP, or .38 Special. The wartime .38-200 Colt OP made tor the British was the first to specify the 38 further.

PS: The Police Positive Special was the exception

Attached a comparison of a pre-war and post-war Official Police barrel. Both guns are .38 Special.
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File Type: jpg Colt OP barrel.jpg (41.5 KB, 41 views)

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Old 06-03-2019, 02:46 PM
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Careful. The Police Positive was chambered in .38 New Police, which is dimensionally identical to .38 S&W.

That is NOT the same as .38 Short, which is a short version of .38 (Long) Colt and thus .38 Special.

To confuse everybody, the barrels of pre-WW II DA Colts just said 38, no matter whether it was .38 Colt, .38 NP, or .38 Special. The wartime .38-200 Colt OP made tor the British was the first to specify the 38 further.
...my Police Positive Special from 1919 pictured above is marked in the manner shown below...

...the last patent date on the barrel is July 4, 1905...

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Old 06-03-2019, 03:10 PM
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Careful. The Police Positive was chambered in .38 New Police, which is dimensionally identical to .38 S&W.

That is NOT the same as .38 Short, which is a short version of .38 (Long) Colt and thus .38 Special.

To confuse everybody, the barrels of pre-WW II DA Colts just said 38, no matter whether it was .38 Colt, .38 NP, or .38 Special. The wartime .38-200 Colt OP made tor the British was the first to specify the 38 further.
Smith and Wesson added to the confusion when they introduced their .38 S&W Special cartridge. They did not make "their" .38 S&W longer like their did with the .32 S&W. Instead they made a longer version of the .38 Long Colt (US Service CTG) the Army was using in their revolvers at the time.


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Old 06-03-2019, 03:32 PM
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...Instead they made a longer version of the .38 Long Colt (US Service CTG) the Army was using in their revolvers at the time.
Indeed. And as your photo shows, they made sure to mention that on the barrel so nobody missed the point

The inscription stayed on the M&P barrels until all three US military branches adopted the .45 Colt M1909.
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Old 06-04-2019, 12:13 AM
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I decided to bid on a prewar PPS, mainly because the price was right. So instead of a friend for my K-38, I may have one for my prewar M&P...
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Old 06-04-2019, 01:24 AM
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I decided to bid on a prewar PPS, mainly because the price was right. So instead of a friend for my K-38, I may have one for my prewar M&P...
Strictly speaking, they don't go together either

One of the reasons Colt dominated over S&W in the pre-war revolver business, especially when it came to law enforcement, was that with the PPS, and the Detective Special derived from it, Colt covered a niche for which S&W had nothing until the Chiefs Special in 1950: a compact-frame option in .38 Special.
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Old 06-05-2019, 12:13 AM
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Well, though not a perfect match to an M&P, I'll have to do a head-to-head comparison because I won the auction...
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Old 06-05-2019, 12:50 AM
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I love old Colt DAs like the Officer's Model and New Service.

But, unlike the S&W, everything is co-dependent. Fitting and timing must be perfect. When one thing goes out, it will tend to bugger up others things if not fixed "el pronto".

There's a Colt DA checklist out there, that is worth studying:

How to check the timing of the Colt double action revolvers. - 1911Forum

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Old 06-05-2019, 12:55 AM
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Congratulations!! I'll bet you will love your Police Positive Special. I would only use standard loadings of the .38 Special, I have a beautiful one from the early 1920s, and it is a beautifully finished revolver.



Best Regards, Les
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Old 06-05-2019, 09:30 AM
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I said 38 short just to separate from 38 Special. I didn't know it was an actual cartridge name. Dealing with 38 calibers is confusing.
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:52 PM
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I have an M&P .38 Target Model made in 1927 and Colt Officers Model Target .38 made in 1940 and also a K-38 (Pre-Model 14) made in 1955 and Colt Officers Model Match .38 made in 1956. They are all great revolvers but with very different manufacturing approaches. One of these days I'm going to do a range comparison with them. Here are the post WWII offerings from S&W and Colt's.
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Old 06-16-2019, 07:02 PM
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The little PPS is a bit of a knuckle buster. I'm thinking a Tyler T-Grip is in order. Any other suggestions? I am considering some faux aged ivory "target" style grips if I can find them.
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:05 AM
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The little PPS is a bit of a knuckle buster. I'm thinking a Tyler T-Grip is in order. Any other suggestions? I am considering some faux aged ivory "target" style grips if I can find them.
Colts were notorious for needing to have the barrels turned slightly to bring the sights on target. Askins told me that he did that to most that he bought for the USBP, New Service .38's.

I asked why he didn't buy S&W .38-44 Heavy Duty instead, and he said that he didn't like the S&W salesmen, who he thought were snobs.

That said, I owned a New Service in .45 Colt that shot right as it should and was very accurate. Either I got lucky or someone had already adjusted that barrel. The gun was made about 1935-36 and was almost new when I bought it in 1968 or so. Had the 5.5 inch barrel that I think was the best choice in a New Service.

I also owned a PPS just like Les B.'s. I think it was a great deal in size for power. I don't recall when my gun was made, but it still had those early rubber grips. Later ones had walnut. The PPS was introduced in 1907.

I once used a commercial Colt OP .38 for a USAF qualification. The sights were off and I had to change to a S&W Victory model to finish. I managed to retain a Sharpshooter score, but I was pretty mad at Colt. Apart from the sight issue, Colts were beautiful guns. But the cylinders do go out of time too soon.

For a shooting gun, you're better off with a Ruger or a Smith or probably, a Manurhin MR-73 or MR-88. I have no experience with Korth products.

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Old 06-17-2019, 05:17 AM
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The little PPS is a bit of a knuckle buster. I'm thinking a Tyler T-Grip is in order. Any other suggestions? I am considering some faux aged ivory "target" style grips if I can find them.
I suspect that Herrett 's still makes their Detective series stocks for these, but maybe only for more recent examples with shorter grip frames, which date from the 1960's.
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Old 06-17-2019, 03:52 PM
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The gun does shoot to the left a bit. Might need a little barrel turning?

It was disappointing to learn how few grip options there are for these. Most of the problem stems from Colt changing the profile after WWII, I've learned. Not many manufacturers want to make non-period correct parts for 75+ year old guns. So I'm probably just going to find a T-Grip and call it good.
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Old 06-17-2019, 09:38 PM
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The gun does shoot to the left a bit. Might need a little barrel turning?

It was disappointing to learn how few grip options there are for these. Most of the problem stems from Colt changing the profile after WWII, I've learned. Not many manufacturers want to make non-period correct parts for 75+ year old guns. So I'm probably just going to find a T-Grip and call it good.
A T-Grip is a good idea. I've used them with excellent results.

Most Colts that needed barrel turning have in my experience shot to the left.

But I'd apply the Tyler adaptor and try a few other ammo brands before turning the barrel. If it has to be done, find a GOOD gunsmith who knows Colts.

If you're reluctant to fire Plus P ammo, Buffalo Bore has a full power wadcutter that should be getting greater publicity. It shoots a WC bullet at some 850 FPS. Others used to have that load, but it was discontinued, as buyers of WC ammo were mainly target shooters who wanted the lightest recoil.

Maj. George Nonte, a well known gun writer, commented that the full power WC was an effective defense load. I think it deserves to be better known. The bullet profile isn't conducive to long range shooting, but at average gunfight ranges or where a rabid raccoon or a rattlesnake is a problem, it's fine.

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Old 06-17-2019, 10:51 PM
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Thanks for the ammo info. I don't think this PPS or my 102 year old M&P are making it into the defensive rotation, but it's good to know.

Yesterday's shoot was with some S&W brand 158gr LRN I had around, probably 1970s stuff. I like buying old ammo the little ma and pa shops have lying around.
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