I recently acquired a Winchester 1894 in caliber 25-35 with 26" barrel, it does not print very well on paper with 85gr LRNFP bullets sized .257. I thought perhaps a .258 LRNFP might improve my score. While I am waiting for Montana Bullets to ship my order I remembered that I have a 25-06 and lots of Nosler and Horndy bullets in all weights, from 60gr to 90grs up to 120grs. All are jacketed bullets. I feel that maybe a heavy bullet might perform better. I have been loading with IMR3031 but am thinking that switching to BL-C(2).Thoughts from the old Winchester shooters will be appreciated

I don't know the twist rate of the M94's barrel, but heavier and longer bullets may not stabilize well. However, I don't have a .25-35 rifle and have never reloaded for it. With my .30-30 M94, I have found that cast lead bullets group poorly - but that could just be a characteristic of my specific M94. IMR 3031 or any other propellant in the same burning rate range should work OK for jacketed bullets. For cast bullet loads, I'd think you might be better off using one of the medium range handgun or shotgun propellants. You can't go wrong using 7 to 10 grains of Unique for any weight lead bullet, and such loads will be safe.

My grandfathers hunting rifle was an 1894 of 1906 production. I tried some cast 115 grainers and they grouped poorly. Most factory stuff is 117 grain round nose. I now use 117gr spitzers, yes only putting two in the gun, one in chamber, one in mag. Powder is IMR 4064, groups well with a Lyman tang sight and a globe front sight. Took a Doe a couple years ago, hope to get it out and use it again this year. Am a handgunner for most hunting and have a Contender barrel in same caliber that needs sighting in.

My experience with cast bullets (no GCs) in bottleneck cartridges originally meant for smokeless powder is keep velocities around Mach 1. Push too hard on them and accuracy goes to pot. I guess I found out why old blackpowder cartridges used heavy bullets and slow velocities.
This link is to 30-30 but it will give you an idea of what I'm talking about.
30-30 Ackley Improved Powder Weight /Velocity Data for the 170gr RNFPbb

The .25-35 has 1:8 twist, and was designed around 117gr bullets .

I and my sister have shot nothing but cast in our 30-30's . I have the family heirloom , an 1894 winchester in 38-55 . I load and shoot cast in it . In both cases , I shoot a size of cast that will " just " and I mean barely just chamber , it's a snug fit . In our Marlin 30-30 I size .311 . In the 38-55 , .379 . Accuracy has never been a problem and I use smokeless in both . It takes a bit of work to find the proper size cast bullet to find great accuracy . Regards, Paul

I agree. I follow the same approach with my Model 94s in .38-55. A 280 grain bullet at around 1100-1200 fps is the sweet spot.


One of the challenges in the .30-30 and .25-35 and a few other rounds from dawn of the smokeless powder era is that they were not designed for either black powder or cast bullets.

At 2000+ fps velocities leading is an issue and a gas check is only a partial solution. A lead bullet needs to be closely fitted to the throat of the rifle (no more than .001" under throat diameter). Way to many hand loaders make the mistake of thinking the bullet should be .001" over the bore diameter. That almost always leave the bullet way undersized relative to the throat.

For example, in a .38-55 the bore diameter may be .378"-.379" but you may need a bullet in the .382" range to fit the throat. In the .30-30, the bore may be .308-.309" but a .311 or .312 bullet may be needed to fit the throat.

In addition, the alloy needs to be soft enough to quickly obturate in the bore and prevent gas cutting. At the same time the alloy needs to be hard enough so that it won't skid or strip in the rifling. 2000 fps is where the lines on the graph intersect and large problems occur meeting those two now conflicting criteria particularly with moderate pressure rounds like the .30-30 where you don't have an excess fo pressure to obturate a very hard cast and heat treated bullet.

For that reason, black powder rounds tended to use large, heavy, but still comparatively short bullets that could stabilize in slow twist rifling when fired at comparatively low velocity well under 2000 fps.

That wasn't the case at all with the .30-30 and was even less so with the .25-35. The use of jacketed bullets went hand in hand with the new smokeless powders used in those two cartridges. They don't make great candidates for cast bullet use if you want accuracy and no leading, unless you are willing to load them down to the 1100-1200 fps range.

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I get pretty good results in .30-30 Model 94s using 150 gr plated bullets, provided I keep the velocity under about 1800 fps. Above that I've noted the Xtreme plated .30-30 bullets start giving flyers as the plated jackets occasionally start coming apart.

I get excellent accuracy in my 1885 High Wall at around 1780 fps in its 30 " barrel. It'll shoot 1 MOA 5 shot and 1.5 MOA 10 shot groups at 100 yards using a tang sight and globe front sight.

I put two of the old Winchester 1894 25-35 rifles (one carbine and one 26")to the test today with a large variety of ammo. Both did not like cast bullets sized .257 with 87gr LRNFP bullets. However it was a different story with jacketed bullets both 87gr lead tip and the 117gr spitzer, which was best.. I finally got some acceptable groups using 22.3grs of IMR3031 and the 117gr bullet. I will take the other two carbines for a run next week. I really appreciate the discussion here on the forum it served to get my thinking out of my box. These old guns can still shoot.

My 38-55 (1894 Winchester ) will barely chamber a cast bullet sized .379 . It's one of the older ones , 1897 . I use smokeless powder , Accurate Arms 5744 . I read some are shooting much heavier bullets . I will stay with what it was designed . It shoots very accurately using a 255 gr cast bullet @ about 1300 fps . Recoil is very mild and yet fun to shoot . Regards, Paul