UPDATE -- HELP with 1959 Ruger Flat Top .357 BRASS FRAME

bigmtnman · #1 12-16-2019, 06:18 PM

I just brought this home today. Yes, the frame is real brass. I took it off the gun and it is heavy brass with no reaction to a magnet. It is not brass plated aluminum or steel. It is marked XR3 and Alcoa in the "usual" area. The frame differs in some aspects to a regular aluminum XR3 frame that I have (note the upper area under the hammer). Was this ever a factory option ? I am aware of the "Dragoon style" Super Blackhawk size brass frames, but this is not that for sure ! It came on a .357 4 5/8" bbl Flat Top serial # 21397 (1959). The wear on the frame matches the wear on the overall gun. Any enlightenment you can provide will be appreciated.

Yes...I did post this on the Ruger Forum, but I can't figure out the picture posting there so I linked them here also.

mtgianni · #2 12-16-2019, 06:26 PM

It looks nice, sorry I would have bet a paycheck Ruger never made a brass frame.

pawngal · #3 12-16-2019, 06:49 PM

Google Brass frame Ruger Blackhawk, yes they did make them

Muley Gil · #4 12-16-2019, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtgianni

It looks nice, sorry I would have bet a paycheck Ruger never made a brass frame.

You would have lost big time. I wanted one when I got my first Blackhawk back in 1973, but couldn't find one.

SuperMan · #5 12-16-2019, 08:01 PM

Might be mistaken but I believe the only brass frame Rugers were made about 1970 and were the Dragoon style with the square back triggerguard...

Bob

Bullet Bob · #6 12-16-2019, 08:47 PM

At one time you could buy the brass grip frame from Ruger and fit it to your gun.

GypsmJim · #7 12-16-2019, 09:00 PM

Back in the day, due to short supplies of steel, the Confederate made Colt style Army black powder revolvers with brass frames. Ruger never did that.

Maybe just semantics here, but the only brass parts Ruger ever made were Grip Frames and trigger guards. It was an option, and they can still be found today as an aftermarket part.

handejector · #8 12-16-2019, 10:23 PM

I'm not sure Ruger offered brass BH frames. I know they offered brass SBH frames.
I also know that there were aftermarket frames made for both the BH and SBH.
I'm pretty sure that is an aftermarket frame.
I'm no Ruger authority, so get more advice.

If I were you, I'd figure out how to post pics on the Ruger forum.

Read the PM I sent you.

tenntex32 · #9 12-16-2019, 10:32 PM

There is something about those brass handle SAA clones...…….

Here's one I found rather inexpensively locally and put together with display box and holster for my father last year for Christmas.

It is an older JP S&S WESTERN MARSHAL .357 Magnum made in "Western Germany". It has the older distinct 4-click cocking sound instead of the 3 clicks that many other brands have due to their transfer bar safety.

After cleaning it up just a wee bit it became extremely difficult to give away.

Dale

Nedroe · #10 12-17-2019, 02:00 AM

I'm no Ruger expert either, but I know this one to be a correct brass frame SBH

I think the gun in the OP has an aftermarket frame. 1959 it could be an early attempt. I have never seen one like that. Interested to see what reply you get from the Ruger board.

Ned

2152hq · #11 12-17-2019, 11:47 AM

Here's rundown of the Ruger grips frames.

Ruger SA Grip Frames - 1953 to Present

The SBH brass frame is noted. Nothing for a Blackhawk that I can see.
I don't recall any factory offering in brass for the Blackhawk,, FT or otherwise in XR3.
If they did it would have also been the correct size for the Single Six of the era.

IIRC, that SBH factory brass frame was available as a 'part' from the Ruger Service Dept. that you could fit to your own revolver. But the squared trigger guard the OP does not have.

No Ruger xspert here,,so I can only go by the link info and what I can see in the pics.

I'd guess an aftermarket brass guard casting also.
A few things caught my eye:

-The finish is a bit rough. It doesn't fit the frame well as a factory fit would.
-I suspect the markings on the brass frame come from the use of an alloy XR3 guard as a model in the casting process.
AND I wouldn't think 'Alcoa' (the marking on the brass frame) would be doing much brass casting. But I'm not in that biz either.

-The 'cast into place' grip allaignment pin in the brass frame is another thing I suspect came about from the use of an alloy XR3 frame with the separate steel grip pin left in place when used as a mould model.

-That area in the brass frame that is removed from the alloy XR3 may have been done for easier casting in brass , shrinkage problems, mould fill-out, ect.
Or perhaps to be able to very slightly pull the back strap portion up a bit to fit the frame and screw holes. Something you cannot do with that web of matr'l in place.

bigmtnman · #12 12-17-2019, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2152hq

Here's rundown of the Ruger grips frames.

Ruger SA Grip Frames - 1953 to Present

The SBH brass frame is noted. Nothing for a Blackhawk that I can see.
I don't recall any factory offering in brass for the Blackhawk,, FT or otherwise in XR3.
If they did it would have also been the correct size for the Single Six of the era.

IIRC, that SBH factory brass frame was available as a 'part' from the Ruger Service Dept. that you could fit to your own revolver. But the squared trigger guard the OP does not have.

No Ruger xspert here,,so I can only go by the link info and what I can see in the pics.

I'd guess an aftermarket brass guard casting also.
A few things caught my eye:

-The finish is a bit rough. It doesn't fit the frame well as a factory fit would.
-I suspect the markings on the brass frame come from the use of an alloy XR3 guard as a model in the casting process.
AND I wouldn't think 'Alcoa' (the marking on the brass frame) would be doing much brass casting. But I'm not in that biz either.

-The 'cast into place' grip allaignment pin in the brass frame is another thing I suspect came about from the use of an alloy XR3 frame with the separate steel grip pin left in place when used as a mould model.

-That area in the brass frame that is removed from the alloy XR3 may have been done for easier casting in brass , shrinkage problems, mould fill-out, ect.
Or perhaps to be able to very slightly pull the back strap portion up a bit to fit the frame and screw holes. Something you cannot do with that web of matr'l in place.

I think you have nailed it! I came to the realization last night about the frame's roughness and the PROBABLE use of an alloy XR3 frame to make a casting mold for the brass. I really appreciate your efforts in helping me with this mystery. In any event, is a nice old unique hunk of brass framed sambar gripped Ruger Flat Top .357 goodness.

gregintenn · #13 12-17-2019, 05:23 PM

No matter how it came about, I like it!!!!

cndrdk · #14 12-18-2019, 11:31 AM

Here is what I found in my Ruger book
"XR-3 marked grip frame used through late 1962; succeeded by re-designed XR-3RED grip frame, in use through1972. Some few grip frames of both XR-3 and XR3RED finished in a gold-toned anodize."
AND IT ALSO SAYS:
"Brass grip frame available as an option, 1965-72. Majority built on Blackhawks date from September to December 1972. Total of about 4,290 factory-built revolvers with brass grip frames, these parts do not fit New Model revolvers, and are found on Blackhawk "Old Models" in .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum. .44 Magnum, and .45 Long Colt calibers".

I have absolutely little to no knowledge abut Ruger's. The above was quoted out of a book about Ruger. So, if I read right and the book is right, OP'S 1959 revolver could have had a gold-tone anodized grip frame as the book said the brass grip frames were an option 1965-72.

gregintenn · #15 12-18-2019, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cndrdk

Here is what I found in my Ruger book
"XR-3 marked grip frame used through late 1962; succeeded by re-designed XR-3RED grip frame, in use through1972. Some few grip frames of both XR-3 and XR3RED finished in a gold-toned anodize."
AND IT ALSO SAYS:
"Brass grip frame available as an option, 1965-72. Majority built on Blackhawks date from September to December 1972. Total of about 4,290 factory-built revolvers with brass grip frames, these parts do not fit New Model revolvers, and are found on Blackhawk "Old Models" in .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum. .44 Magnum, and .45 Long Colt calibers".

I have absolutely little to no knowledge abut Ruger's. The above was quoted out of a book about Ruger. So, if I read right and the book is right, OP'S 1959 revolver could have had a gold-tone anodized grip frame as the book said the brass grip frames were an option 1965-72.

That would explain the "Alcoa" markings.

2152hq · #16 12-18-2019, 06:54 PM

Does the revolver feel like it's carrying a few ounces of aluminum in a grip frame on it, or a pound and half of brass?
Those brass grip frames are heavy.
Take a nick out of the frame on the inside with a file and you can see quickly if it's anodized alloy or brass.

That missing web of metal in the upper inside part of the grip, the cast-in-place grip pin and the over all finish make me still think it's an aftermarket. But I can be convinced otherwise!
The brass frames always looked nice on the Rugers no matter where they came from.

bigmtnman · #17 12-19-2019, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2152hq

Does the revolver feel like it's carrying a few ounces of aluminum in a grip frame on it, or a pound and half of brass?
Those brass grip frames are heavy.
Take a nick out of the frame on the inside with a file and you can see quickly if it's anodized alloy or brass.

That missing web of metal in the upper inside part of the grip, the cast-in-place grip pin and the over all finish make me still think it's an aftermarket. But I can be convinced otherwise!
The brass frames always looked nice on the Rugers no matter where they came from.

I actually took the grip frame off the gun to make sure it was brass ---It is brass. I am almost positive now it's an aftermarket frame by someone who used an original alloy factory frame to make a casting mold which would account for the "factory like" markings. I went ahead and sent Ruger a "letter" just to make sure this isn't some factory oddball.

bigmtnman · #18 01-03-2020, 11:51 PM

Just to be sure, I sent for a Ruger letter. As I expected, it had no mention of a brass frame. This made it OK for me to swap out the brass for an alloy XRN-3RED frame on which these beautiful sambar grips fit. I decided to put the brass frame with the fitted sambar on it up for sale on Gunbroker. That solid brass frame makes for one HEAVY revolver !