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  #1  
Old 03-08-2020, 02:35 PM
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Default THE 12 GAUGE

Hereís one for all the whippersnappers out there:



Itís called a 12 GAUGE SHOTGUN, a Remington 870 Police model, in fact. Itís what we dinosaurs used before the influx of .22 caliber Matel-16 poodle shooters. Men stormed the trenches with them, took islands in the pacific, rode day and night on the mean streets of America with the 12 gauge pump-action shotgun. A load of 00 buckshot is still about the best close-range problem solver there is.

Iím just giving the new .223 carbine guys a hard time. The AR is in reality, a great gun for many different purposes and is highly effective all jokes aside. But for me? Nothing beats the time-tested reliability and unquestionable devasting close-in lethality of the classic, timeless, trusty 12 GAUGE!

-Jay

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Old 03-08-2020, 02:48 PM
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That's a pretty rad shotgun, pops. But this is the shotgun all the cool kids are using these days!



Well, us cool kids who are over 30 and grew up watching 80's action films, anyway...
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Old 03-08-2020, 02:53 PM
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Default 12 Gauge Pump

Hard to beat a 12 gauge pump for most applications!
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:01 PM
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Being and ex-LEO my favorite friend is an Remington 870, 12 gauge. I have kicked in many doper's doors with one of these in my hand. Recently took a defense shotgun course now that I am that retirement age. After 150 rounds bird shot and 75 rounds buckshot got to admit shoulder had a workout. My tricked out 870 next to the bed always
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:11 PM
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Being and ex-LEO my favorite friend is an Remington 870, 12 gauge. I have kicked in many doper's doors with one of these in my hand. Recently took a defense shotgun course now that I am that retirement age. After 150 rounds bird shot and 75 rounds buckshot got to admit shoulder had a workout. My tricked out 870 next to the bed always
Me too, but the older I get the better I like my 870 20 gauge
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:21 PM
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Yes, hard to beat an 870 12 ga. No worrisome jello testing, penetration, expansion, FBI studies, and the other factors the easy chair obsessors and theorists fret about endlessly. A plain short-barreled 870 with no add-ons is probably the best and most useful 870.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:37 PM
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Shotguns are great, very versatile. I do prefer the 20ga but here's my 12ga. Love it. Adding an O/U soon... not sure if 12 or 20 though...

THE 12 GAUGE-psx_20200308_1431311-jpg

Don't mind the mess, spring cleaning is coming soon....
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:53 PM
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No doubt the 12ga is effective, and the 870 is well-proven.

My only experience shooting a shotgun was familiarization training with the 870 during a LE course I attended (I am not LE, just took the course). It was a plain jane, wood stock and fore-end gun with a bead sight. All ammo was 00 buck. 2 hours learning the manual-of-arms, loading and unloading, shooting, etc. I can't remember much about shooting it, but we did some quick wing-shooting (stock tucked under the armpit) and I remember not liking it. It was also challenging as I'm right-handed/left-eye dominant and was shooting the gun as a righty. If I do ever get into long guns, I'm inclined to shoot them as a lefty.

I remember the instructor telling us a story about a police officer who tried to use the stock to help boost his partner over a fence or wall like he had with a M1 Garand, but because the stock was just attached to the receiver it ended up breaking.

Not too long after the class (this was probably mid-90s) I visited a LGS that had a bunch of used LE 870s for sale. I can't remember the price, but I remember thinking it was a very good value. I was very tempted to get one, but didn't.

Nowadays, when it comes to long guns, I'm much more interested in getting a pistol caliber carbine (PCC) than a shotgun, but there are times I'd like to add an "old school" shotgun to my meager collection, probably an Ithaca 37/87. Or maybe a short-barrel side-by-side coach gun like the Stoeger.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:56 PM
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Here is one of mine....Slug barrel, also works well for buckshot....I have about $90 in it....a 1 ounce slug drops a deer like a sledge hammer....reckon it'd do the same to two legged creature.

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Old 03-08-2020, 04:08 PM
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I have my choices of house defense equipment.

As we live rural no neighbors in danger, my go to guns are both 12G Mossie Pumps. I have a 9 shot conventional magazine and one of the newer detachable ones. That one is 10 rounds (NY legal) Have a bandoleer of extra shells close by.


As we also have bears and other critters up here both guns will first fire off 5 00buck and the rest are slugs. We are on the far end of the county and LEO help could be a long way off.
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Old 03-08-2020, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
That's a pretty rad shotgun, pops. But this is the shotgun all the cool kids are using these days!



Well, us cool kids who are over 30 and grew up watching 80's action films, anyway...
I cut off an 870 when I was a LEO like that. It kicked like hell, even with birdshot. My sheriff took it with him to New Orleans during Katrina and gave it to a sheriff down there.

I've never warmed up to a gauge. When I was in VN, 68-69, I had an Ithaca, which had also been sawed off fore and aft, that was gifted to me by my CO when he left country. I carried as a backup, in my rucksack. Didn't trust the short-range limitations. A guy in my platoon carried a Winchester 97 riot gun, heat shield and bayonet lug an all, which somehow got left in our arms room inventory long after. Story behind that, I'll bet, but never know.

When I was a cop, we were issued 870s, 1 per car. And we were minimally trained on shotguns. You'd be surprised at how many cops can't operate one. Used to be, in NYC, they issued Stevens/Savage doubles to cops because of the uncertainty of officers and pump guns. At least that's what we were told.

I've got a S&W police 122 ga. a police trade-in. Got sights on it. I only fired it once to make sure it works. Made in Japan. It's in a closet in a spare room.

My friend in NC, who is a retired LEO and an excellent shot with any weapon, competes in the Senior Games they have up there, He shoots an 870 in the shotgun phase, no sights, and wins with ordinary slugs. Pretty far distance; he told me the range, but I forget. Maybe 75-100 yards?

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Old 03-08-2020, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
That's a pretty rad shotgun, pops. But this is the shotgun all the cool kids are using these days!

Well, us cool kids who are over 30 and grew up watching 80's action films, anyway...
It's even cooler with a laser. Both of mine have one. Crimson Trace LS-250 greenie on the 12 G, and the red laser I got as a rebate on that I put on the 20.
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Old 03-08-2020, 04:43 PM
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Trained and qualified with the 870 for my 26 years on the job. Every time I go into a Pawn or Gun Shop I have to stop myself from buying whatever $300 shotgun is on the rack. I have enough.

I think these are the last two I picked-up. Only because all my others are traditional style.



And who didn't grow-up in the 80's & saw these in the hands of the US Marshals.
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Old 03-08-2020, 04:50 PM
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Mossberg 500A and dad and his JC Higgins was home defense 1960's - 1980's
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Old 03-08-2020, 04:55 PM
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I happen to have one of the Vietnam-era Stevens Model 77-E 12 gauge pump guns as my SHTF weapon. I doubt that I have fired more than 20 rounds through it, just enough to let me know that it worked OK. It sits in a closet with a box of #4 Buck shells and 10 rounds of rifled slugs nearby. That is the extent of my interest in defensive shotguns.
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:03 PM
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I recently bought a 18" barrel for my 20 gauge Remington Wingmaster, it's a very handy combo. And it's so good looking, I think a miscreant would be honored to be shot with it.
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:19 PM
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I've got a supermag in the safe I use for waterfowl, my home defense/turkey gun has a bigger hole at the end....
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:22 PM
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The pump shotgun may be the best weapon on the planet for HD. Here's my Remington Wingmaster 12 gauge from 1971. It is a Scattergun Technologies conversion done before Wilson Combat took them over. The barrel was left at 20" and the rifle sights were left in place because I find them better for target acquisition than a ghost ring setup.
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:24 PM
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Now you have shotguns and then you have the Winchester Model 12.
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:30 PM
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Not my only scattergun, but my favorite:
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
No doubt the 12ga is effective, and the 870 is well-proven.
My sentiments exactly. This is my Remington 870 Wingmaster with short barrel and Tru-Glo sights. Nothing fancy or extra except for a butt sleeve holding extra buck shot and slug loads.


Quote:
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Nowadays...there are times I'd like to add an "old school" shotgun to my meager collection....maybe a short-barrel side-by-side coach gun like the Stoeger.
Couldn't agree with you more. Someone once said that the most terrifying sight a burglar can have is a scared, nervous woman at the top of the stairs pointing a sawed-off double-barreled shotgun at him.

The top one is an 1916 Ansley H. Fox Sterlingworth. The bottom is a CZ hammer coach gun. Both in 12 gauge.
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:42 PM
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I cut off an 870 when I was a LEO like that. It kicked like hell, even with birdshot. My sheriff took it with him to New Orleans during Katrina and gave it to a sheriff down there.
Maybe it's because I had set my expectations too high based on what others have said about pistol grip shotguns or maybe it's because I'm a bodybuilder with ape arms, but the felt recoil of my Mossberg 590 Shockwave was far less than I had anticipated.

It doesn't hurt at all to shoot, but then again, the raptor grip doesn't transfer the recoil force into the palm/wrist as it does with a traditional vertical pistol grip, nor does it transfer it into the shoulder like a stock does, so it's just a jolt or a shove backwards which doesn't impact any part of your body, and both the foregrip and rear grip aren't aggressively checkered/textured, so it doesn't shred your hands up either.

Full disclosure, I have become something of a recoil junky over the years, but that being said, I honestly find the Shockwave fun to shoot. Don't get me wrong, I'm not using the term "recoil junky" as a euphemism for masochist either. The Shockwave isn't at all painful to shoot, just exciting because you can really feel the power when you pull the trigger, especially with some real defensive ammunition like Military Grade 00 Buck. The jolt of the recoil, the blast blowing your hair back, the muzzle flash coming out the barrel, the satisfying plume of smoke raising from the chamber as you eject the spent case, and obviously the results downrange. It's a level of excitement I haven't felt since my youth while riding fast roller coasters.
I haven't had the time, money, or the guts to shoot slugs out of it yet, but my gut tells me that they would likely tip the scales into painful/unfun territory, so I'm not in a hurry to try it.

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It's even cooler with a laser. Both of mine have one. Crimson Trace LS-250 greenie on the 12 G, and the red laser I got as a rebate on that I put on the 20.
That does sound cool, but I'm afraid that a laser would either prevent it from fitting in the scabbard I use, or otherwise cause a snag on the draw, and although it is a fun gun for me, I also use it for Home Defense.

I'll most likely end up fitting mine with a fiber-optic/tritium front post sight next time they go on sale.
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:43 PM
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My Remington Model 24899 and 24903 Police Magnums.

[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

Big Button Left Hand Safeties installed on both guns.
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
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It's even cooler with a laser. Both of mine have one. Crimson Trace LS-250 greenie on the 12 G, and the red laser I got as a rebate on that I put on the 20.


I put a laser/light combo on my 20 & 12 gauge Shockwaves.


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Old 03-08-2020, 06:09 PM
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1st trigger I ever pulled was my friend's husband's 12ga over under, at a Skeet range near Offut AFB where he was stationed. OMG, I was instantly hooked.
I still think busting clays is the most fun I have with a firearm, and at 7 bucks a box for ammo it's a bargain entertainment.

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Old 03-08-2020, 06:44 PM
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I have owned and shot .12 gauge riot guns since I was 17, some of the current

Ex police Mossberg 500 marine



A 590 and another 500



Mossberg 500 SPX



Mossberg M500 bullpup



Ex Mississippi Highway Patrol Ithaca M37, serial number very close to the US Govt Vietnam contract



A Chinchester M97 Trenchgun



A Beretta M1301 Tactical



And there are a few others
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Old 03-08-2020, 06:47 PM
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That's one awesome collection of boomsticks you've got there!
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Old 03-08-2020, 07:33 PM
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My favorite configuration of the venerable 870, the Marine Magnum:
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Old 03-08-2020, 07:51 PM
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And who didn't grow-up in the 80's & saw these in the hands of the US Marshals.
That's the only reason I'd want a TAC-14.

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Old 03-08-2020, 08:23 PM
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My shotguns don't need bells/whistles/lights/side saddles or hood scoops........All they need is a magazine full of shells and a steady hand.
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Old 03-08-2020, 08:25 PM
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I have this one

Never have enough of these.
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Old 03-08-2020, 08:45 PM
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If the whippersnappers could handle a 12 gauge they wouldn't be making all these plastic Fisher-Price guns.

My Dad carried a Parker double deer hunting up till his 80's. I still take her out at least once a year, and afterwards have a beer and toast Dad.
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Old 03-08-2020, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
the felt recoil of my Mossberg 590 Shockwave was far less than I had anticipated.

It doesn't hurt at all to shoot, but then again, the raptor grip doesn't transfer the recoil force into the palm/wrist as it does with a traditional vertical pistol grip, nor does it transfer it into the shoulder like a stock does, so it's just a jolt or a shove backwards which doesn't impact any part of your body, and both the foregrip and rear grip aren't aggressively checkered/textured, so it doesn't shred your hands up either.
The recoil is very manageable in the Shockwaves. I have had strong side rotator cuff and back surgeries. I will take the Shockwave recoil over the traditional shoulder stock recoil anytime. With reduced recoil OO buck, it is almost a pleasure to shoot. I have four shotguns, but even put a Shockwave grip on my 18Ē rifle sighted 870.

That said, a Beretta 1301 is on my shortlist of future purchases.
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Old 03-08-2020, 08:59 PM
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That's the only reason I'd want a TAC-14.

For me it was Corporal Dwayne Hicks from ALIENS.



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Originally Posted by GypsmJim View Post
If the whippersnappers could handle a 12 gauge they wouldn't be making all these plastic Fisher-Price guns.
Except polymer framed pistols actually tend to recoil harder than steel-framed pistols because they're lighter in weight and polymer doesn't do much to absorb recoil forces.

Honestly, I'm no stranger to poking fun at young men these days for their effeminate choices in attire such as man-buns and leggings, (don't even get me started on the emasculating travesty that is manscaping) but their ain't nothin' wimpy about anybody who has the guts to take their safety seriously by choosing to carry a firearm for Self-Defense, especially in the modern day when the media does everything in its power to defame those who exercise their Second Amendment rights, and those Fisher Price pistols recoil a heck of a lot more than your very manly metal-framed pistols.

Just sayin'.
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Old 03-08-2020, 09:21 PM
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respected , recognized , intimidating and effective short range hammer . hard to beat. kenny
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Old 03-08-2020, 09:33 PM
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Never owned one before getting this one.



Mossberg 590. Also picked up a few cans of Federal 2.75" 00 buckshot, about 700 rounds.
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Old 03-08-2020, 09:36 PM
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I was 12 when my cousin handed me a light single shot 12 gauge and told me shoot that can. After my shoulder started working again I always liked shotguns. I have had a Winchester 1300 for the last 30 years and always have it loaded and close at hand in the house. Have owned several Mossbergs including a shockwave but still prefer the 1300. Never owned an 870 for whatever reason.
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Old 03-08-2020, 10:50 PM
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I am recoil sensitive. I hate it! I can shoot around moderate recoil on a rifle or a shotgun, but don't see any advantage that recoil offers. Recoil tolerance is certainly not a testosterone tester or a measure of manhood. I wish a 30-06 or a 12 gauge recoiled like a .22, then I would be a great shooter!

I'm rapidly approaching 75 YOA, and love all the modern technology that has kept firearms affordable and lighter for carrying around. I love plastic guns. Carried one in combat and never longed to tote a wood and steel M 14.

Steel is fine, but aside from appearance, offers little in advantage over composite. For example, my Star BM 9 posted below, blue steel, weighs 34 oz, loaded. My Sig 365 loaded with a couple more rounds, weighs 23. And both are accurate enough and fire the same cartridge.

How this applies to shotguns is a little premature, as most are made with traditional designs going back to the late 19th century, and nothing so far seems like it would be a good substitute for steel. And shotguns aren't all that heavy to begin with. But a whole lot of tactical shotguns have plastic stocks, so maybe the shift is happening, a little at a time. For stocks, it's cheaper and stronger than wood.

I'm sure they're great for home defense, possibly unsurpassed for that role, but outside the home, I think their practicality diminishes. Can't see carrying one for SD outside your home or property.

And I won't spend a lot of money for a home-only bedroom SD weapon, since I only spend about 8 hours there in my bedroom daily. I only paid $190 for my S&W pump, which is why I bought it.

However, to each his/her own, since self defense is a personal choice.
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Old 03-08-2020, 10:55 PM
Jim PHL Jim PHL is offline
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Pump actions are cool. But Joe Biden says you should have a double barreled model to shoot in the air to make burglars run away.
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Old 03-08-2020, 11:23 PM
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My personally owned/department approved 870 that rode "shotgun" in my patrol unit for about 18 years. Very comforting at 0200 when looking for a man with a gun in dark places. Loaded with six 00 in the tube and six 1 ounce slugs in the sidesaddle. Now in my safe, loaded and ready as always.
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Old 03-09-2020, 12:01 AM
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I have a Shockwave with the Opsol adapter, and picked up a case of the 2" Challenger slugs. The recoil is minimal, to the point that I have no difficulty at all using the front bead to sight with.

I saw a video on how to do this and it works fine- you extend the hand on the foregrip out, to where the arm is straight. This leaves the pistol grip about a foot in front of your face, and you look right down the barrel. With the mini slugs, I get about 2 inches of movement, which causes my body to roll back just a bit. Instead of pumping normally, I then shove my pistol hand forward while keeping the other arm straight. I can shoot rapidly and accurately, and this has definitely become far more than just a range toy.
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Old 03-09-2020, 12:30 AM
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Been shooting Shotguns since I was a pretty young kid.
As I have posted, the first gun I ever bought was a 20 Ga Sears Single Barrel.
Still don’t now why I got a 20, as the other Family owned guns that my Bro and I shot were all 12s.
Actually there was also a 10Ga Double.
And there was often conflict on who owned which shells!
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Old 03-09-2020, 12:50 AM
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Singe shot, side by side, pump, yup, great guns indeed.

I need to take pictures of a couple of others for y'all, too.
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Old 03-09-2020, 03:41 AM
Ivan the Butcher Ivan the Butcher is online now
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1-870 20", 1-500 18.5", 1-500 24" slug gun, 1-97 18" (1904) & 1-97 28" (1954) All 12 gauge. These keep my 19 other shotguns company.

About 15 years ago, my wife bolted upright in the middle of the night and yelled to me from a distance of 2 feet, "I want my shotgun!" That just send chills down your spine- a scared woman with a scatter gun! Her's is a 20 gauge Beretta 391 Sporting Clays 28". There may be better defense shotguns, but that's the gun she knows and trusts (and hits with!)

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Old 03-09-2020, 10:49 AM
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Grew up with a 870 12 ga. and it was the first gun I ever reloaded for.
On starting with the PD, they had an assortment of riot shotguns at the time. Mine was a 20" High Standard and was a great shotgun.
Others available were either Winchester M1200 and a bit later the Made-in-Japan S&W M916, which we had problems with.

Eventually settled on the 870 Police Riot with 18" barrel as the standard issue. I added a +2 mag extension on mine and no one seemed to object.

When we had semi-annual quals with our shotguns, one course we shot steel plates on a rack after releasing the electronically-controlled overhead rack in the car and exiting with the 870.

You could really spot the people who didn't grow up shooting pump shotguns - some you could time with a calendar.
They acted amazed that I could quickly wipe out the plates on the rack, like it was some sort of feat. It was easy.

Currently keep house with two dissimilar pump short-shotguns - a Winchester Police Riot M97 12 ga., 20", c.1935.
The other - a Remington 870 Marine Magnum that'll be around long after I'm gone.

Found the M97 is kind of a freak - it'll stack basic 1 oz. Foster slugs at 75-100 yards like it's a rifle - don't really know why.
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Old 03-09-2020, 11:02 AM
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AR-15 ... NO

12 gauge with a buttstock ... YES

Inside the house I may be old .... but #4 buckshot loads level up the playing field and give me a bit of a fighting chance .
Gary
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Old 03-09-2020, 11:17 AM
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How about an old High Standard K-1200, Riot 18-7 RS? I believe Steve McQueen used a similar one in "The Get Away". This one has no SN that I can find so I guess its pre-1968.
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Old 03-09-2020, 11:29 AM
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That's a pretty rad shotgun, pops. But this is the shotgun all the cool kids are using these days!



Well, us cool kids who are over 30 and grew up watching 80's action films, anyway...
Based on my 21 y.o.'s purchase history, I have to agree with you. That or an autoloader (he's got a Saiga too).

Personally I like my SxS, but the kid's Shockwave has its charms.
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Old 03-09-2020, 12:33 PM
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I have a Shockwave with the Opsol adapter, and picked up a case of the 2" Challenger slugs. The recoil is minimal, to the point that I have no difficulty at all using the front bead to sight with.

I saw a video on how to do this and it works fine- you extend the hand on the foregrip out, to where the arm is straight. This leaves the pistol grip about a foot in front of your face, and you look right down the barrel. With the mini slugs, I get about 2 inches of movement, which causes my body to roll back just a bit. Instead of pumping normally, I then shove my pistol hand forward while keeping the other arm straight. I can shoot rapidly and accurately, and this has definitely become far more than just a range toy.

That's the technique I employ. Works great. It seems that those that don't use that technique don't have favorable results. And usually use the term "range toy" or promptly sell them.

I wonder what the US Marshall's did for training with these? They obviously felt these served a purpose, or they won't have issued them.

A couple more I've got.

870 Police


Classic 80's Mossberg 500
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Old 03-09-2020, 02:14 PM
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I have 2x Remington 870s, both have been set up for "social" work in the past (only one at the moment). Also have a Rem 1100 that has been pressed into "social" duties.

My Ithaca M37 DSPS is my own personal go-to HD shotgun.

Love all three models for different reasons. All can put their favorite slug into a 9" paper plate at 100 yards from field positions. All group their favored (00 or 000) buck load into a reasonable group at 15 yards.

I even set one up for the wife. Set up properly, with the right ammo and hardware, a bitty woman can and will shoot 12ga buck COM at 15 yards with Fed FltCont low recoil 00 buck.
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