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Old 03-27-2020, 01:05 PM
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I am looking at a LNIB Bauer 25 auto, my research tells me it was a quality copy of the "Baby Browing" the fellow is asking $350, are these a desirable/collectable mouse gun?
Any information would be appreciated.

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Old 03-27-2020, 02:35 PM
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I've never seen that they're very collectible, and think they're not likely to ever become so. Almost all of the ones I've seen have functioned okay (I recall there was one that was having issues that I thought might have been magazine related). They were made to an attractive standard. I'd advise you to look at recently completed sales on Gunbroker to determine whether the price makes sense.
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Old 03-27-2020, 02:43 PM
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Baby Browning copy, possible weak point is the frame up by the south end of the firing pin - some have cracked off. Quality is good, not real collectible AFAIK, and being striker-fired I’d hesitate to carry it with a loaded chamber.
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:22 PM
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I’ve go one. The were made about 30 miles away in Fraser, Michigan. It functions OK if properly lubed, but it’s a pretty useless gun and the sights are virtually nonexistent. I wouldn’t carry one with the chamber loaded. I wouldn’t carry one at all, if I had any other options. The Beretta 21A is a better gun, but it is bigger. It’s also fairly useless.

I don’t know what they’re currently going for, but I wouldn’t fork out $350.
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:44 PM
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I bought this one last year for around $200, so I wouldn't pay $350 for one myself.

I had a minor issue with some ammo not wanting to feed in an aftermarket mag, but with the original mag it functions well, and the quality level is high for a vestpocket gun.

I occasionally carry it as a BUG, and I carry with one in the pipe. But the safety is on, and it is in a molded pocket holster I made for it to cover both the trigger and the safety.
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Old 03-27-2020, 03:58 PM
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Thanks for the advice, I will pass on it.
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:00 PM
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I had one. It worked fine. It was NOT as finely made as an Astra Firecat. I decided a cocked striker-fired gun did not belong in my pocket, so I have neither now.
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:03 PM
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I had one as well, it functioned fine, but shot way high.
Think I sold it for $150 about 10 years ago.
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Old 03-27-2020, 04:17 PM
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I looked at on a few months ago. It had just been sold and was not cleaned, dealer wanted $325. An interesting little gun, but I passed.
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:15 PM
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Still have mine, BUT, it's a .25 and as Jeff Cooper once said, if you carry a .25 carry it unloaded because if it's loaded you may be tempted to shoot it, and if you shoot it you might hit someone and THAT will really get them mad at you.
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:33 PM
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I bought one a few years ago. For a lot less than that. Mostly because I'm a JMB fan, and it is a copy made in Michigan. My mouse gun phase.
Cute. Cannot hit squat with it, but so what?
Little carry gun to me = LCP
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:34 PM
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Before I'd pay $350 for a .25, it would have to have collector value.
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:44 PM
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I bought a PSP 25, now called the PSA 25 (Precission Small Arms)about a year ago. It's the same basic pistol as the Bauer, but is actually made under license for FN and they are exported to Belguim for FN to sell there, and sell them here in the States too It's a better made pistol that the Bauer and very durable. I think I paid $275 NIB and got a box of American Eagle ammo with 6 rounds out of it that came with the pistol.

I really like shooting it and it's pretty accurate. But, as a defense pistol, 25 isn't much to write home about.
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Old 03-27-2020, 06:25 PM
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Yeah, the 25 isn't much for a defensive caliber.
I carry it as a GOMA (Get Off Me A******) gun.
I figure if I ever have to use it, I'll be sticking it in an attacker's ear or eye socket and pulling the trigger repeatedly until they're off me or it stops going bang.
FWIW, I think the baby Browning pattern pistols are about the smallest thing you can get that shoots a center fire cartridge. The only smaller thing I've ever seen that fires an actual bullet are a couple of little guns built on the same basic pattern but chambered for 22 short - which allows the gun to be a tiny bit smaller.
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Old 03-27-2020, 07:45 PM
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The Bauer was all stainless steel and investment cast parts. The latter was 'the way' to do things at that time in firearms mfg.
Good or bad depended on the quality of the castings being done for you. Hardly anyone had their own casting facility. Ruger was about the only one.

The Bauers weren't too bad as far as overall quality and the asking price at the time. They were quite popular because of that. The orig Browning Baby 25 that they were a copy of were always several times their price.

They had some rough internal parts that didn't need any machining or little fitting from the investment cast phase,,so they didn't get any.
The outside got belt grinder polished on the frame and slide flats and the preliminary bead blasted prep usually left in the rounded and undercut areas. Not an unattractive look, but done to save labor and time.
Some were polished all over.

Like any mouse gun they could be picky about ammo.

I remember engraving more than a couple of them in the 80's when they were popular.
The investment cast frame and slide would sometimes expose a small hidden flaws when chiseling along. But that's something any investment cast part can surprise you with.
Ruger #1 levers were well known for that.

I do recall a number (5 or 6) of used ones for sale in a shop I worked in in the early 90's. They were in kind of a pile, in a display case at the very end of a bottom shelf.
They were all marked '$49.95 each. No returns/no guarantees/may be parts missing or damaged.'
I didn't bite.

Collectors gun?,,I don't think so,,but then I'm not a collector.
Some people collect matches,,so what do I know.

Asking price just seems a bit high to me.
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Old 03-27-2020, 08:21 PM
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PSA .25s, if they're still being made are/were advertised to be hand made and were/are expensive. I WOULD give $300 for one. Some of them have grips marked Colt, as I think FN licensed them to do so. Maybe Browning. A few days ago, on another forum, a guy asked about the .25 Colts and a link was provided to PSA.

I used to carry a Beretta .25 single action a long time ago as a last resort backup when there weren't the small more-power choices there are today.

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Old 03-27-2020, 09:10 PM
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I bought 4 back in the '90s for about $40-$60 each. They are the best deep cover pistol around.
As cute as they are, I don't think that I would give $350 for one today.
Edit:
Guess I should add that I've tested 3 of them fairly extensively and they have no operational issues. Bauer and Browning magazines are fairly expensive when and if I find them.
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Old 03-27-2020, 09:47 PM
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I happen to like the so-called "mouse guns" and have several.

The Baby Browning and its clones probably are or at least one of the smallest quality pocket pistols ever made. You can hide one in a shirt pocket.

The Bauer was an un-licensed copy of the Baby Browning. Their big selling point was that it was made from stainless steel. At that time SS was still fairly new and becoming quite popular. Some where great and others just so-so. QC wasn't the greatest. However, most functioned just fine. Also, those pretty "pearl" grips were bad about cracking.
A Bauer in good shape would be worth about $200-250. But no more than that. They have no collector value.

As nutsforsmiths already mentioned, Precision Small Parts (PSP) now known as Precision Small Arms (PSA) makes an excellent copy of the Baby Browning. This is a licensed copy and I can't praise it enough. I'd buy a PSP-25 for $350 in a heartbeat.
I have both a true Baby Browning and an older PSP-25. Frankly, I think the PSP is a better gun.
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:06 PM
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I believe the Walther 9 and its close copy the Bernardelli VP were actually slightly smaller than the Browning. I had a VP, super cool little gun.
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
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I believe the Walther 9 and its close copy the Bernardelli VP were actually slightly smaller than the Browning. I had a VP, super cool little gun.
BB - L=104mm, H=72mm, T=22.3mm
VP - L=106.5mm, H=69mm, T=20.5mm

So the VP is slightly longer, but the BB is slightly taller & thicker.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:11 PM
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Back in the 1980's I had a weak moment and purchased a brand new Bauer .25 acp. I could not fire one full magazine full before it would either malfunction or the magazine would loosen and drop from the catch. I sent it back to the Factory twice and they could not fix it so I traded it in for a Used Colt M1908 in .25acp.The used Colt has never had a misfire and not had one problem!

My advise is if you like the Baby Browning - get a real used Baby Browning! Or even better, get a Colt 1908 in 25 acp..
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Old 03-28-2020, 12:33 AM
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Back in 73 0r so. I had two Colt .25s. I'm almost certain they weren't from long ago, but I don't know. There wasn't collector interest in them in the place where I lived. They were in great shape, didn't look old. I sold both of them to the same guy for not much money.

A few years after I sold them, Colt stopped selling them over here. And not so long after that, I saw at my LGS .25s that were so far as I could tell, identical but labeled from some foreign maker, maybe Spanish or Italian? and they were cheap. Not like a Rohm, maybe a little more than a Titan. I can't remember exactly where they came from but they looked exactly like Colts. From a distance, anyway. Same walnut grips, even had the drilled holes for where the medallions would have been, but the holes were empty. They were around for a couple of years.

But it made me wonder if whoever supposed to manufacture the Colt .25s (assuming FN?) I had were farmed out by another manufacturer and marked distributed through FN as Colts. Or if someone bought up FN/Colt overruns after they quit exporting them here. They were pretty cheap and anonymous w/out the medallions. Wish I'd read the lettering on the slide more carefully. There might be a story there.

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Old 03-28-2020, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene L View Post
Back in 73 0r so. I had two Colt .25s. I'm almost certain they weren't from long ago, but I don't know. There wasn't collector interest in them in the place where I lived. They were in great shape, didn't look old. I sold both of them to the same guy for not much money.

A few years after I sold them, Colt stopped selling them over here. And not so long after that, I saw at my LGS .25s that were so far as I could tell, identical but labeled from some foreign maker, maybe Spanish or Italian? and they were cheap. Not like a Rohm, maybe a little more than a Titan. I can't remember exactly where they came from but they looked exactly like Colts. From a distance, anyway. Same walnut grips, even had the drilled holes for where the medallions would have been, but the holes were empty. They were around for a couple of years.

But it made me wonder if whoever supposed to manufacture the Colt .25s (assuming FN?) I had were farmed out by another manufacturer and marked distributed through FN as Colts. Or if someone bought up FN/Colt overruns after they quit exporting them here. They were pretty cheap and anonymous w/out the medallions. Wish I'd read the lettering on the slide more carefully. There might be a story there.
What you are describing is the Colt Junior. They were made in Spain by Astra. Astra also marked and sold them under their own label as the Astra Cub.
They are a little bit bigger than the Colt Vest Pocket and the Baby Browning. Almost the size of a Beretta Bobcat.
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Old 03-28-2020, 02:04 AM
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If you get one make sure to file off the front sight because if you ever actually try to shoot someone with it, they’ll just take it from you and stick it somewhere uncomfortable.

There WAS an incident where a person stopped a bear with a .25 ACP a few years back.

Hims friend and his he were in a state park when the bear charged. He pulled his .25 and shot his friend in the kneecap and kept on running!!

Seriously, all jokes aside, as the little boy in the cowboy hat mentioned above, they’re pretty much next to useless. I’d pass on it.
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Old 03-28-2020, 02:40 AM
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There is nothing wrong with owning and even carrying a mousegun like a Bauer .25 ACP. But not at that price. There's an old expression that says friends don't let friends carry mouseguns but I have done it often because it's a gun when I needed a secret gun. But a Bauer at that price seems ridiculous.
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Old 03-28-2020, 03:35 AM
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I had one back in the day. It was reliable, and seemed nicely made. Carried it for a short while as a uniform hide out gun, but was never comfortable with it being cocked. Ended up carrying a 4 shot Freedom Arms mini .22 mag instead. Don't know todays value, but $350 sounds high. If your set on buying a carry .25, I would look for a Beretta 950 "Jet Fire"

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Old 03-28-2020, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene L View Post
Back in 73 0r so. I had two Colt .25s. I'm almost certain they weren't from long ago, but I don't know. There wasn't collector interest in them in the place where I lived. They were in great shape, didn't look old. I sold both of them to the same guy for not much money.

A few years after I sold them, Colt stopped selling them over here. And not so long after that, I saw at my LGS .25s that were so far as I could tell, identical but labeled from some foreign maker, maybe Spanish or Italian? and they were cheap. Not like a Rohm, maybe a little more than a Titan. I can't remember exactly where they came from but they looked exactly like Colts. From a distance, anyway. Same walnut grips, even had the drilled holes for where the medallions would have been, but the holes were empty. They were around for a couple of years.

But it made me wonder if whoever supposed to manufacture the Colt .25s (assuming FN?) I had were farmed out by another manufacturer and marked distributed through FN as Colts. Or if someone bought up FN/Colt overruns after they quit exporting them here. They were pretty cheap and anonymous w/out the medallions. Wish I'd read the lettering on the slide more carefully. There might be a story there.
The 'other mfg'r' you are thinking of involved in the Colt (Junior) pistol project was FIE / Florida (Firearms Import & Export).

Some say FIE was involved from the start of Colt Junior production at Colt and was the importer of the Astra 'Cub' pistols for Colt.

What is pretty well established is when the GCA68 took hold and those imported Astra's were then banned from import to the USA, Colt decided to make the Junior frame in the US and only import the small parts from Astra and continue to assemble the gun in the USA.
Some resources say that FIE was again involved in importing the small parts from ASTRA for Colt.

Seems like Colt was a big enough boy that It could import some pistols or simple parts by itself, but that's what's said to be.

When Colt decided to drop the Junior from the line all together, FIE did in fact picked up the pistol and continued to make it.
FIE did buy from Colt much of their Junior parts inventory to build their pistols.
It was marked as made by FIE, Florida.
It was sold with the Model name of 'Best'. Some were sold in advertisements with a Model# of 'A27'
Who actually made the (USA) frames (machined them) I don't know.
Could have been a few different shops along the way.

The original Astra made and imported guns marked Colt have ser# suffix 'CC'
The post GCA68 Colt Junior guns (USA made frame/Spanish parts) have ser# suffix 'OD'
These post 68 Juniors were only assembled at Colt for 2 yrs IIRC.

No idea what the ser#'s, range of the FIE assembled 'Best' Model.
They stopped selling them in the late 80's IIRC.
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Old 03-28-2020, 08:48 AM
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The Colt .25 Automatic that came after the Colt Junior .25 was made by FIC (Firearms International Corp.) a company headquartered out of Washington DC and contracted by Colt not FIE.
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Old 03-28-2020, 09:15 AM
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Yeah, Firearms International Corp of Wash DC is who started making the Beretta Jetfire after the ‘68 GCA. You will note that their address eventually became Beretta USA.

Firearms Import Export co (FIE) is a Florida outgrowth of importer EIG, who imported lots of cheap foreign guns and parts, and started making frames and assembling them in the US after the GCA. Eventually made whole guns.
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Old 03-28-2020, 09:53 AM
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Thanks for the info on Colts. Much as I suspected.
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Old 03-28-2020, 10:18 AM
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The gun is nice, the caliber sucks. 25acp is the most useless caliber I am aware of. If it was .22lr like my TPH, then you would have something.
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Old 03-28-2020, 11:21 AM
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It is kinda weak. I watch Forensic Files on TV and I'm surprised when a .25 is used for murder. Usually at very close range.

I remember a long time ago when National Rifleman compared the .25 to a .22 LR using Beretta pistols. This was before Beretta made their SA small pistols in .22 LR, so for the writer took a .22 short frame (Starfire?) and replaced it with a .22 LR barrel. They reported that the .25 penetrated farther.

I remember this especially because I relied on that report when a buddy of mine had one of the DA Berettas in .22 and I had a SA in .25. We were curious (well, he was. I was confident of NR info.) We fired both several times into a phone book. The .22 penetrated deeper every time.
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Old 03-28-2020, 09:05 PM
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I know it was a very lucky find but I got this Baby for $250.00. As was already said $350.00 for a Bauer seems high.

I did have to find NOS grips, ($65.00,) because the left grip was cracked/repaired. When replacing the new ones everything went “boink” and I had a bunch of parts that I needed to put back. The disassembly/assembly book I have had the Bauer and not the Browning but everything seemed the same and it went right back together. Eventually.

I also agree that .25 mouse guns are worthless but I sure like collecting/shooting them.

Jim
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Old 03-28-2020, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 4T5GUY View Post
I know it was a very lucky find but I got this Baby for $250.00. As was already said $350.00 for a Bauer seems high.

I did have to find NOS grips, ($65.00,) because the left grip was cracked/repaired. When replacing the new ones everything went “boink” and I had a bunch of parts that I needed to put back. The disassembly/assembly book I have had the Bauer and not the Browning but everything seemed the same and it went right back together. Eventually.

I also agree that .25 mouse guns are worthless but I sure like collecting/shooting them.

Jim
So did the $250 include the new grips, or was it $315 including the new grips?
If the latter it was a pretty good deal, if the former you got a smokin' deal.
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Old 03-28-2020, 10:17 PM
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I also agree that .25 mouse guns are worthless but I sure like collecting/shooting them.

Jim
I second this. The AMT pictured is in 22LR.
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Old 03-28-2020, 10:38 PM
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Thats high for a bauer around here.
For me the smallest 25s are hard to shoot.
My favorite two are easy to shoot, and reliable.
CZ & Star.
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Old 03-28-2020, 10:53 PM
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Well, now if you want to talk about favorite one to shoot, that would be my OTHER 25acp
An Iver Johnson TP25. It is a mini PPK clone. Complete with fixed barrel, trigger guard takedown, slide mounted safety and pinky extension magazine with a heel release. It is a lot bigger than the Bauer though.
This one isn't mine, but it looks just like it.
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Old 03-28-2020, 11:00 PM
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The Colt .25 Automatic that came after the Colt Junior .25 was made by FIC (Firearms International Corp.) a company headquartered out of Washington DC and contracted by Colt not FIE.
Yours is a Colt assembled Junior. Spanish imported parts. US made frame because of the 68GCA. Has 'OD' ser#
It looks like an FIC made and supplied frame to Colt.
Colt couldn't even make a frame? I shouldn't be surprised I guess especially in that time period, they couldn't do much of anything right..

FIC made (or had made) the frames for the 380 Colt Pony built with Spanish STAR Model D small parts.
Another Colt try at making a small non-importable pistol that way that failed.
FIC did pick that one up and mfgd and sold them. Iver Johnson still later after FIC dropped it.

But 'The Best' model 25acp pistol, also sold as the 'Model A27', was made (assembled) by FIE/Florida. It was the Colt Junior that Colt discontinued in 72 or 73.

Here's a pic of one, with the slide markings. for 'The Best' Model
marked Firearms Imp & Exp, Miami, Fl.

FIE Model A27 The Best .25 Auto
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Old 03-28-2020, 11:15 PM
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So did the $250 include the new grips, or was it $315 including the new grips?
If the latter it was a pretty good deal, if the former you got a smokin' deal.
Nope, I got the grips thrown in with the excellent CZ45 I got from David Rachwal, (Syd’s son, continuing Handguns of the World.)

So it was $250.00 plus $65.00 plus the EXRTA cost of an extra NOS mag. I’m still ahead.

Jim
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Old 03-29-2020, 03:08 PM
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From wiki:

.22LR ballistics:



And .25 ACP:



Seem now why .25s are considered so pathetic? A modern .22 HP can generate THREE TIMES as much Muzzle energy! The .25 ballistics are just barely over that of some of the new break action high vel pellet rifles.

DO NOT CARRY A .25 ACP!!!
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Old 03-29-2020, 05:16 PM
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Is the .22 LR stats from a rifle length barrel? I doubt you can get 1750 fps from a 2-3" barrel pistol.
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Old 03-29-2020, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
From wiki:

.22LR ballistics:



And .25 ACP:



Seem now why .25s are considered so pathetic? A modern .22 HP can generate THREE TIMES as much Muzzle energy! The .25 ballistics are just barely over that of some of the new break action high vel pellet rifles.

DO NOT CARRY A .25 ACP!!!
Where the heck did you get those numbers?

Ballistics by the inch doesn't show ANY 22 loads at faster than 1510 fps - and that is out of an 18" rifle barrel, they show 1129 fps for a 3" barrel
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .22 Results
and their ME graph doesn't show any 22LR with more than 125 ft-lbs for the 18" barrel and only 95 ft-lbs for that load from a 3" barrel
Ballistics by the inch

For the 25acp out of an 18" barrel (not sure where you'd find one, but its comparing apples to apples) they show a max of 1049fps and out of a 3" barrel it is 867 fps
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .25 Auto Results
because of the heavier bullet the ME graph shows the ME of that load at about 122 ft-lbs for the 18" barrel and around 95 ft-lbs for that same load.
Ballistics by the inch

On top of that the 25acp is a center fire which is far more reliable than a lot of 22LR since it is rimfire.

So I'm not sure what your source of info for FPS and Ft-Lbs is/was, but it sure doesn't look very accurate.

No while the 25acp may not be a great caliber for SD, neither is 22LR, but the 25acp certainly isn't significantly worse than 22LR.
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Old 03-29-2020, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq View Post
Yours is a Colt assembled Junior. Spanish imported parts. US made frame because of the 68GCA. Has 'OD' ser#
It looks like an FIC made and supplied frame to Colt.
Colt couldn't even make a frame? I shouldn't be surprised I guess especially in that time period, they couldn't do much of anything right..

FIC made (or had made) the frames for the 380 Colt Pony built with Spanish STAR Model D small parts.
Another Colt try at making a small non-importable pistol that way that failed.
FIC did pick that one up and mfgd and sold them. Iver Johnson still later after FIC dropped it.

But 'The Best' model 25acp pistol, also sold as the 'Model A27', was made (assembled) by FIE/Florida. It was the Colt Junior that Colt discontinued in 72 or 73.

Here's a pic of one, with the slide markings. for 'The Best' Model
marked Firearms Imp & Exp, Miami, Fl.

FIE Model A27 The Best .25 Auto
Wrong, wrong information on some of your accounts. But thank you for your input.

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Old 03-29-2020, 08:05 PM
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The link above to the picture & info of the FIE marked 'The Best' Model is somehow made up?
The ones I bought and sold in the 80's were figmentations?


After the M1908 25, Colt never made another 25 auto.
They re-marked an Astra Cub for some years and sold it as their Colt Junior.
Then after the GCA68, for 2 yrs they put the Astra Cub parts into a domestic made Cub frame and continued to mark it & to call it a Junior.
The ser# letters tells them apart.
The forged frame of the all Spanish made Astra on the pre68 guns vs the cast frame of the Domestic made frame on the post 68 made guns is another way to tell.



Here's a bunch more if you care to take time to look... (closed auctions)

All FIE mfg marked,,
All 'The Best' model 25acp,,
With boxes, paper work marked FIE.
No 'FIC' in site.

FIE Model A27 ''The Best'' Semi-Auto Pistol


FIE Model A27 .25 ACP Semi-Auto Pistol MIB | Kraft Auction Service

https://bid.houseauctioncompany.com/...65/lot/3320778

Whatever,,we're done.

Last edited by 2152hq; 03-29-2020 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 03-31-2020, 09:26 AM
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I had one I bought back around 1975. I carried it in my back pocket of my jeans when working undercover narcotics as an LEO. Knowing what I know today, it was foolish. I sold it last year, with original box, papers etc , in "as new" condition. for fifty bucks, about what I paid for it. I agree with the others who defined it as pretty much useless.
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