Colt SAA experts- need help!

steve61 · #1 03-29-2020, 10:44 AM

Bought this a couple weeks ago off of GB and just got it yesterday. I'm thinking it is a Colt rework. Silver and gold plate with ivory grips. What are your thoughts? More pics to follow.

steve61 · #2 03-29-2020, 10:53 AM

More pictures of the Colt

steve61 · #3 03-29-2020, 10:55 AM

More pictures of the Colt part 2

LoboGunLeather · #4 03-29-2020, 11:03 AM

From what I can see in the photos the work appears to be pretty well done. Lots of shops doing gunsmithing and refinishing/plating work on SAA's over the decades. Probably the only way to know for sure if it was a factory job would be to order a Colt Historian's letter (about $125 for that service), which would give specifics of the revolver when it left Colt originally and probably any factory work done later on.

To determine whether or not the grips are genuine ivory you can remove them from the frame, heat up a straight pin or needle to red heat, apply that to the interior surface. Real ivory will char, release a bit of smoke, and give off the smell of burning hair or fingernails. Artificial ivory (usually polymers, with or without ground ivory or bone dust) will typically just show a melted spot where the hot needle touches.

Colt marketed grips of genuine ivory, frequently on Custom Shop guns, and also lots of faux ivory. Genuine ivory typically takes on a yellowish-brownish coloration with time and use, and frequently exhibits surface cracking. Faux ivory retains the original coloration, usually of a solid white or off-white shade, and uniform surface appearance. Either type can be found with or without Colt grip medallions, and a number of aftermarket grip makers offer their products with medallions (genuine or copies).

steve61 · #5 03-29-2020, 11:47 AM

It’s been confirmed. They are ivory. They are yellowing in spots. I should have shown that.

lestert357 · #6 03-29-2020, 12:31 PM

I believe the serial number is 210730, or is it 310730? That would originally be about a 1901 shipment, or a 1909 shipment. The pictures are a little blurry so it’s difficult to make a judgement. Having said that, I would say that Colt did rework the gun at some point based on the “458” number I see on many of the components. They marked the components that way when reworking guns to keep the correct parts together. It is unlikely that a factory letter will provide rework information on a civilian gun like yours in the same manner as they did on the military Single Actions that were reworked in 1896, 1901, 1902, and 1903. The fact that Colt did rework the gun at some point does not mean that it hasn’t been reworked or refinished again since then. If the seams where the components come together are not VERY tight, if the cylinder flutes and lockup notches are not almost razor sharp, and if the lettering and markings are not crisp, then more than likely the gun has been reworked/refinished again since Colt did it. Also, regardless of whether the grips are ivory or not, if Colt fitted them they will fit the straps perfectly and there will be no gaps between the grips and the frame or straps. If they are Colt grips they date from about 1920 or later based on the style of the medallions. I also now can see that the gun has a later barrel with Colt address on the right side - I believe those barrels date to the 1950’s. So bottom line is I can’t really tell exactly what you have there because the pictures are not that clear, but my guess based on what I can see is that the gun has been reworked multiple times. It still appears to be an attractive piece and I would consider it a classy shooter.

steve61 · #7 03-29-2020, 12:45 PM

My apologies for the pictures. All I have is my Iphone. The serial number is 210730. The grips fit really well with absolutely no gaps. The fit is very nice with no gaps. When I first looked at it online, I almost passed. It appeared to have a nasty gap between the trigger guard and the frame. I got it home and found that all the screws holding the BS and TG took approx. 1-2 turns to tighten. The cylinder appears to be 2nd generation?

lestert357 · #8 03-29-2020, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve61

The cylinder appears to be 2nd generation?

I was going to mention that because I could not see any beveling at the front of the cylinder flutes, but couldn’t tell for sure in the pictures. Is there a Rampant Colt stamped between two of the chambers on the loading side? That would also confirm it as 2nd gen. Since the barrel was replaced in the 50’s they might have replaced the cylinder too at the same time - possibly even changing caliber at the time. Are you going to letter it?

steve61 · #9 03-29-2020, 03:37 PM

I’ll check the cylinder again, but I don’t remember seeing the pony. Really torn about the letter thing. I’ve heard that the Colt letter only shows how the pistol left the factory originally, not return/ rework.

steve61 · #10 03-29-2020, 09:09 PM

There is no Colt on the rear or no numbers on the front

lestert357 · #11 03-29-2020, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve61

There is no Colt on the rear or no numbers on the front

From this angle the beveling looks like 2nd generation to me. If you could take another picture from the side I could tell you for sure. Probably no reason to get a letter unless you want to know when and where it was originally shipped and in what configuration.

steve61 · #12 03-29-2020, 09:33 PM

Side shot of cylinder and one of my 1957 45 for reference. Notch approaches (?) seem different

lestert357 · #13 03-30-2020, 05:48 AM

1st generation cylinders, even those from the late 30’s, have a more rounded beveling at the front where the chamber meets the flute. It was more pronounced in the black powder era and early smokeless era into the early turn of the century. The beveling then gradually diminished over time but was still apparent all the way to the end of 1st generation production. The 2nd generation cylinders have a small straight beveling cut across the end of the cylinder chamber that is not rounded at the edges - as the pictures of your cylinder appear to show. I cannot tell you the exact vintage of your cylinder, but I can say with certainty that it is not the original cylinder that your gun was shipped with in 1901. Anyway, good luck with the gun. It is a beauty. If you are pleased with the fit, finish, and mechanics of the rework, it should draw a lot of attention at the range!

03hemi · #14 03-30-2020, 08:51 AM

Do the ends of the grips have Schreger lines? Even "bonded" ivory will yellow, so that isn't a true indicator? They look like bonded ivory to me from the pictures, but then, you can't see any grain in the photos either.

steve61 · #15 03-30-2020, 08:54 AM

Yes they do have the Schreger lines.

Modified · #16 03-30-2020, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve61

My apologies for the pictures. All I have is my Iphone. The serial number is 210730. The grips fit really well with absolutely no gaps. The fit is very nice with no gaps. When I first looked at it online, I almost passed. It appeared to have a nasty gap between the trigger guard and the frame. I got it home and found that all the screws holding the BS and TG took approx. 1-2 turns to tighten. The cylinder appears to be 2nd generation?

Regarding the photos; and IPhone should be able to net you pretty good photos.

The trick is to take the photos out in a a LOT of light. The best time to take gun photos is outside on a bright, but overcast day. Also, if you upload the pictures to a hosting page ( I like and use imgur.com ) you can post large photos.

Because of the size of the photos I don't think I can really comment too much on your gun, but I might be able to help regarding a Colt Factory Re-Work: do you see any little ampersands anywhere?

I have a confirmed factory modified Colt Bisley, and it is stamped with a series of little Ampersands, which I was led to understand (prior to confirming it was factory work) was something Colt would put on guns they worked on. If you find them it may lend some weight to the notion that Colt did the work on it.

There are big pictures of the ampersands in the thread I made about my gun here; Update: 1920 Colt Factory Modified "Keith No. 5" for C.M. McCutcheon

steve61 · #17 03-30-2020, 11:13 AM

I usually have pretty good luck taking pictures with my phone, but it was very bright yesterday.
I found a post over on the Colt forum. It was said that prior to the 2nd generation replacement cylinders (no pony) were offered. About the same time frame as the replacement barrel.
There is an extra set of bin numbers (458) on the frame, tg, bs, cyl pin and gate arm.
I guess a couple of questions that I have are
1) Did Colt ever refinish Guns like this?
2) If Colt didn’t, why the bin number on the cylinder pin?
3) No ampersand on the tg, but this mark

2152hq · #18 03-30-2020, 05:08 PM

In addition to the short, wide locking bolt ramps to the notches on the cylinder, I note the wider ratchet teeth on the back.
These look heftier than I recall 1stgen Colt cylinder ratchet to look like.
Same shape but more meat.

I would wonder if the cylinder might be an Italian or Spanish mfg from one of their repros.
I know that some of them will fit Colt SAA 1stGen guns as I have fitted them in the past.
I still have an orig Colt Bisley here with an Italian 44-40 repro cyl fitted to it.
Cylinder is still in the white.

The bbl's w/the address on the right side are called Service Dept bbl's or Replacement Bbls (from the Service Dept).
They were what was used to rebbl your gun if you sent your gun in for work or what was sent to you if you ordered a replacement bbl (back when they would actually send you such parts.

Lots of such bbls still around as are there take-off's with the address roll marked on the top.

Lots of tinkering and alterations done to the old SAA.

A letter would most likely not tell you of any Factory work done after initial shipment from the factory.
The original configuration, date of shipment and to whom it went would possibly be in the records.