First a JP Sauer & Son in 9x57, a factory built sporter, equipped with a Lyman 35 rear sight.

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Can we see the whole rifle?

Looks cracking.

Cheerio,

Roy

I gave it a try.

What I (think) know about the rifle is that is was built around 1905-1910
On a Oberndorff M98 action that was sourced from Mauser by JP Sauer to build into a sporting rifle, that is it was never a military 98. It was built for the American market for a retailer such as VL&D or VL&A in NYC and Chicago respectively or a similar retailer such as A&F.

It seems original and unmolested, although I am not certain if the leather faced recoil pad is original. If not it is not it has been on the rifle for a very long time. It also has an externally adjustable trigger, but not a set trigger.

The barrel starts as an octagonal barrel that is swamped into a round barrel with a rib.

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Beautiful! I love those Pre-war sporters. Mine is 8x57J with a Lyman aperture mounted on the right side of the receiver and with a front claw mount. It kicks!

Next is a post WWI sporter built from a Military M98AZ Carbine, not as well done as the Sauer but a nice little rifle. As I understand it these were built in the 1919-1920s for sale by gunsmiths and small factories for survival in the Post WWI era and are called “Cigarette” rifles as the were often traded for cigarettes and other commodities. It is in 8x57, and is engraved with the letters DAS. I have seen a couple of almost identical rifles sold online over the years, but have never learned anything definitive about them. It has obviously a set trigger.

I have fired the 8x57, but I have not fired the 9x57, I need to form some brass and locate a die set, bullets etc.

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It’s nice to see a few real rifles, black stuff is boring and has no class.

Beautiful rifles. The JP Sauer & Sohn are my favorite pre war Mausers.
True craftmanship.

Another fine rifle but I think you have your timeline wrong. Cigarette rifles were produced after WW 2 and were traded to American GIs for cigarettes and other goods. A lot of cigarette guns were rechambered to American calibers like the 30-06 if the GI could afford a new barrel on the 98 action. I've got a couple in 06; not nearly the quality of the older guild guns.

Also, after WW 1, German gunmakers couldn't make rifles in military calibers by treaty, so the 8x57 wouldn't be able to be produced, as I understand it in my limited knowledge of German guns. The Germans responded with such chamberings as the 8 x 60 and no doubt other ones we seldom see now. So your rifle might be older than you think.

Someone else who knows a lot more about German rifles than I will respond, so let's wait awhile.

There was a very short period of time, between the Armistice in November 1918 and the Treaty of Versailles that went into effect in very early 1920 when Sporters were made in 8x57 and other calibers. I may be wrong calling it a cigarette rifle, but I am certain it is a post WWI sporter, definitely earlier than the end of WWII.

A few other tidbits, it has the .318 groove diameter of the earlier 8x57I chambering. And the M98AZ is a small ring action.

Dude, your rifles look amazing, the Sauer is a beauty in every way, and the other Mauser action rifle has something that I really like and it's the double trigger, thanks for sharing and congratulations.

If these rifles are exchanged for cigarettes I have 10 boxes of Marlboro, 10 of Lucky, 10 of L&M and 10 of Gitanes to exchange for your rifle.

A good one my friend 😂

Nice rifles.
That JP Sauer is a beauty.
Are you sure that trigger on the Sauer isn't a Single Set Trigger ?
It looks like it in the pics.

If in operating condition, you should be able to push the trigger forward by pushing on the backside of the trigger shoe. It'll rotate forward and 'click' in the forward position.
That's the 'Set Position'.

Then a light pull will flip the trigger rearward and kick the sear out of engagement and drop the striker.

The small screw is used to adjust the trigger pull up and down. The further the screw is turned 'in' the lighter the pull.

Single set triggers were never as popular as the double set style and they never give you quite the same light let-off. But they were a Mauser option and offered by most all the European makers of the day.

I have one Mauser 98 (looks like an Army Mod C in 8x57) that is equiped with a single set trigger (SST).

That Lyman rear sight is quite a rare item in itself too.

Lots to like about that rifle!

Congrats on the pair!

You'll enjoy reloading & shooting the 9x57.
358Winchester load data is a good start point. In fact I just stay right there.

The Sauer is a NICE piece.

Trigger- Did you check to see if that is a single set trigger? Push it forward and see if it sets.


I doubt the leather pad is original. What is the LOP?

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Jim, your post wasn't there when I started typing!

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Your other rifle is a cut above the average "subsistence" grade of guns built by gunsmiths just to make a few marks for a loaf of bread and a potato. But you probably already know that. I wish you had more pics. I would expect that gun to have been rust blued. Do you know if it has been redone?

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

It maybe be a single set trigger that is not functioning properly, I need to take it out of the stock and take a look at it. In the 9x57 I plan to shoot cast bullets, so the loads will be moderate, the moose are scare in WSTX

The Sauer's LOP is 14 1/4 to the end of the pad, and 13 1/2 to the end of the wood. If the pad was added it was done correctly and the curve of the butt was maintained and not cut straight across like so many pad jobs are.

The finish of Sauer is original, I believe. The receiver is similar to the old style Colt blue, it is shiney and really blue, the barrel and furniture is a more subdued rust blue. The 8x57 has been replied and sadly I see some pitting near the end of the barrel that wasn't filed out.

Let me know what areas you would like to see photos of and I will give it a shot.

I forgot on the Sauer-
What makes you think it was built for the American market? I don't think so. Not a popular caliber here. 7mm or 8mm would have been a better seller. I could be wrong.
I also think that rifle is later than you think. Maybe late 20s, early 30s. That stock style just doesn't fit Pre WW I Germany, IMO, with the flatter pistol grip and lack of schnabel, but, again, I could be wrong.
Both are fine and I like them. Just chatting here.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

The reason I believe it was for the American market is the Lyman 35, and the spelling of son, in JP Sauer & Son is the English version and not Sohn as I see on my other Sauers. The reason I believe it is pre-WWI is the take down wedge in the fore end, the octagonal to round type barrel, and the panels on the stock which seem to me to be early features.

The 9x57 had some popularlarity in the US and I recall Winchester chambered a few Model 54s in that cartridge.

When I take it out of the stock it may have some markings on the under side of the barrel that will help establish era of manufactor.

I was very lucky to snag these at a price I could afford.

My rifle also has a Lyman sight. It was definitely made for the German market, 8mm I bore and according to the German Collectors Assn. board made in 1910-11. I think there were none better than the Lyman sights back then which may account for why it's on a guild rifle.

While "Son" as opposed to "Sohn" is important, it doesn't necessarily mean American. Could. however, be indicative of an English-speaking market, where a 9x57 would have a broader appeal.

Another member here posted a few weeks ago with some dandy Oberndorf rifles, if you go down the board.

We all are making inferences here (me included) but what I did is join the GGCA and send photos of my rifle to them. They have a VERY knowledgeable membership that was able to give me a whole lot of information, including the name of the store that originally sold it.

As for reloading, .318 bullets are hard but not impossible to find. The only ones I found were something like 174 gr. I found a sizing die on Ebay.

So far I have fired only Remington 8mm rounds in the 8x57, that ammo is downloaded to not much more than a 30-30 it seems and has a special sort of stepped bullet so as to be safe in older I bore 8x57. I bought some dies and new 8x57 brass a few weeks ago in preparation for reloading for it.

I am think about using cast bullets for it also, with my older eyes and the rear notch sight it is not practical for me to use it much past 100 yards.

With the better Lyman aperture sights on the 9x57 I should be able to stretch out to 200 or so.

JP Sauers ( and some other other makers from that region) pre-WW1 guns meant for export were usually marked 'Prussia' in the bbl address or on the frame.
Not a sure sign, but one thing that you often see.
Prussian State was dissolved at the end of WW1.

Sauer bought the 98 actions from Mauser in that time period, so if you take the bbl'd action out of the wood,,the original Mauser Oberndorf ser# will be on the bottom of the action right behind the recoil lug.
A matching full ser# should be on the rear wall of the magazine box as well (if it's the orig mag box to the action of course).
Mismatched magazine box here doesn't necessarily mean someone later on switched things around, Sauer may have changed out the magazine box assembly in a caliber change or other necessary alteration for the orig build, But it's usually a good bet that it has been done later on and most collectors see it that way.

The bolt and small parts will usually still carry the last 2 digits of that Mauser ser# on them. All matched up as a complete action when sold to Sauer.

JP Sauer added their own ser# to the rifle when they built the sporter on the Mauser made action.

The JP Sauer applied ser# is usually on the right side of the front ring.

The bright high polish blue is what is usually seen on most Sauer sporters that have orig finish left on the action.

Thank you!

That gives me a good guide to follow to date the rifle.

Btw, there is a very similar Sauer 9x57 rifle for sale currently on the Simson Ltd. Website, it doesn't have the Lyman 35, though.

I agree, factory 8mm in the US is not very high pressure because of US lawyers. European 8mm is hotter. Being anal-retentive as I am, I got the I bullets. At first, I tried using a IS sizing die, but it wouldn't neck the case mouth down enough to hold the I bullets so I looked for and found a I R die on Ebay. Don't need the R, but don't really need it and it works fine.

My rifle has good blue on it, but it's not brilliant blue, like on Weatherbys or Colt Pythons. Looks like rust blue. The forearm is really thin and it split slightly when I fired it. Repaired and now it's fine. I have no way of knowing but believe it hadn't been fired much before I got it. If it had been, the forearm would have split before it did. How it got from pre-WW1 Germany to GA is a mystery.

The stock on mine isn't dark and I wish it were. It does have an interesting thing about it: the last 4 of the SN is on the right side of the stock, very dim and I can't see it unless in bright sunlight. This means the stock is original to the rifle.

bracebeamer on this board is a Mauser man. Hope he reads this.

I don't hunt and I'm probably older than you (75) so I only reload lightly.

Gene where did you find the I .318 bullets ?

Thanks.

Buffalo Arms. The only place in the US I could find.

Thank you !

Here's some pics of the Single Set Trigger out of a Mauser Sporter.
This one from an Army Mod C Model.






This one is the trigger Un-Set:


This is the trigger 'Set' :



They should be able to be used to fire the rifle in either the Set or Un-Set mode.

I think this particular assembly was put in the rifle after it was built due to the 'pinned' assembly inside the trigger guard. DST's straight from Mauser so I'm told were not pinned in separate assemblys . But instead fitted right to the trigger guard itself so a blank guard was what they would have started with.
I'm assuming the same for a factory SST. (Bad to assume!)

There's a few other things about the rifle that this SST is off of that make it look like a build done outside the Oberdorf Works.
But I have a feeling
the SST focused on here is what you should see if you take the stock off.

Re: .318d bullets for the I-bore 8mm's.
If you don't want to go with cast lead, you can get away with using jacketed 32 Win Spcl bullets. They are 170gr Jacketed flatnose and are
.321d.
The jackets are very thin on the 32spcl bullets and the dia about splits the difference. Keep the loads within reason and they shoot very well and with no pressure problems.
The dia won't over expand the necks upon seating so there's no issue there as far as tight neck/chamber.
The heavy weight bullet shoots well in them as the older 8x57I was topped with the heavier bullet anyway.

If you want a 'gallery load',,the cast bullet sold for the 8mm Nambu pistol works great. They are usually 102gr or 105gr RN. and again .320d.
I shoot them with a light load of Bullseye or RedDot. Great accuracy out at 50m. They feed well in the Mauser and might make a neat small game rifle of it so you can get it back in the field if you are a small game hunter.
I use the same bullet in 32Remington Auto rifle. A manual op situation though.

Your post above is invaluable, a heartfelt thank you.

The photos of the your single set trigger is worth the yearly donation I made to the site and then some. And your bullet recommendations are just gravy on top.

You are one of members that makes this Forum great.

Mine's not as deluxe but I like it a lot. BRNO made between the wars and sporterized by some Bavarian gun smith. Probably shipped home by an Army officer during WW II.

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No life story has happy end.

Art, your rifle looks like mine. Same European walnut stock, looks like the same sight. Yours has a longer barrel. Fine rifle you have there!

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This is one of the rifles I won't get rid of, my dad bought this 1896 7x57 back in late 60s from military surplus and cut the stock down and put a relieved bolt on it so it would take a scope. I've had it for about 25 years and still enjoy shooting it even though the barrel is pitted pretty bad as dad used to shoot a lot of surplus ammo through it. It will still put them in the bread basket of a whitetail at 150 yards so I've not thought about getting rebarreled yet.



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