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Old 05-26-2020, 12:15 AM
jeffrefrig jeffrefrig is offline
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Default Home defense for a newbie?

My brother in law, who has never shot a gun in his 58 years, wants a home defense gun. I want to take him to the range and let him shoot my model 10 .38 Spl. and a .22 revolver, then a full-size 9mm, Beretta 92, maybe a .32 semi-auto, and see what he can shoot comfortably. I would feel better putting a revolver in his hands, as they are about as basic as one can get. Then I thought about S&W's EZ 9mm & .380, as they hold a few more rounds. Perhaps a shotgun, but he'd just like a handgun. I think letting him shoot what I have mentioned above, then going from there. (And, of course, making him take a training course at a local range with whatever he decides he's comfortable with.) Anyone have an idea for me; or am I on the right path?
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Old 05-26-2020, 12:32 AM
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My brother in law, who has never shot a gun in his 58 years, wants a home defense gun. I want to take him to the range and let him shoot my model 10 .38 Spl. and a .22 revolver, then a full-size 9mm, Beretta 92, maybe a .32 semi-auto, and see what he can shoot comfortably. I would feel better putting a revolver in his hands, as they are about as basic as one can get. Then I thought about S&W's EZ 9mm & .380, as they hold a few more rounds. Perhaps a shotgun, but he'd just like a handgun. I think letting him shoot what I have mentioned above, then going from there. (And, of course, making him take a training course at a local range with whatever he decides he's comfortable with.) Anyone have an idea for me; or am I on the right path?
Go with a 20g pump

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Old 05-26-2020, 12:38 AM
jeffrefrig jeffrefrig is offline
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Yeah, Fiddler, that's my input, too. I have a 410 pump and a 410 double. Easy-peasy!
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Old 05-26-2020, 01:56 AM
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I too would say get a shotgun. Much easier to learn the basics, esp. if only in the home. A short barreled 12 or 20 pump can be found at very good prices and ammo is easier too.
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:02 AM
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Good 9mm carbine. Rack the handle, point And shoot. 30 rounds. No fumbling with shotguns, no running out of ammo.
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:21 AM
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And, of course, making him take a training course at a local range
How do you propose to MAKE him take a training class?
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:28 AM
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My brother in law, who has never shot a gun in his 58 years, wants a home defense gun. Anyone have an idea for me; or am I on the right path?
I think you are on the mark of having him shoot multiple calibers and actions, find what feels good to him. Unless he is going to spend a lot of time at the range to become a proficient shooter, ( yes you can miss a 10 feet, and people have), I would look at a 20 ga /12 pump or side by side, 18-20" bbl, 1 in the chamber, 7-8 in the mag on the pump. Next is Safety, does he have any children, other family members. So safe storage and easy access would be next. Also does he live in a house, apt, how much distance is there between him and his neighbors, bullets will go through perpetrators and walls so a shotgun with buckshot is an option. Last what is his physical condition-Is he a 58 year old body builder or multiple illnesses that have him in a wheelchair? I like 12 ga as part of my home defense, but I have been shooting for 58 years. Also mindset is of great importance, did he move to a bad area, increase in crime, covid-19 or has he been a pacifist who now realizes that as the bad guy is coming through the door the police may be 15-30 minutes away? ( Not Law Enforcement's fault, just a reality depending on where you live- city, small town, very rural?) All of the above should be taken into consideration, I know people without the physical or mental strength to use a firearm, and I would never have them get one if it would put them in greater danger from accidental self inflicted injury. Good Luck Be Safe,
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Old 05-26-2020, 08:12 AM
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If someone asked me that question, and I knew they weren't going to take up shooting as a hobby I would recommend either a Taurus PT 92 or a Taurus (or S&W - depending on their budget) K frame size revolver.

I've always owned what I consider to be "sporting" type guns. Blue steel and wood. Shotguns, 22 rifles, revolvers, and a couple 1911's. A year or so ago I bought me a PT 92. Man oh man, am I impressed by the amount of firepower you can hold right there in your hands. And it's user friendly. With that gun and a couple extra mags you could really "hold 'em off at the pass." That's the gun I would want if I knew I was going into a serious social situation. It's almost like a little machine gun. Yes sir, that's the gun I'd want!

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Old 05-26-2020, 08:21 AM
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Yes, the gun selected is relevant, but an understanding of judgment, tactics and the law is even more important. By all means, teach him how to shoot be insure that he receives the classroom topics.
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Old 05-26-2020, 08:37 AM
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As others have suggested, I would look into a long gun of some type. It is easier to get a newbie to make hits since the stock offers additional points of contact with the body and is more stable.

A red dot on a pistol caliber carbine or an AR makes for quick hits and easy shooting.
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Old 05-26-2020, 08:37 AM
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If a revolver, I would suggest a QUALITY four-inch, double action in 357 magnum. Why the magnum? More versatility! Four inch is controllable but not as awkward as a 6 inch. Maybe a K-frame or L-frame stainless for ease of maintenance. If money is available, a matching 22.
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Old 05-26-2020, 09:17 AM
jeffrefrig jeffrefrig is offline
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He's single, we live in the city (PGH) in a rural-type area, called Stanton Hgts. It used to be a golf course early 1900s. But, I believe a short shotgun would be best. And, maybe a double-action .22 revolver. He's in good shape, just minor aches & pains of being a mail carrier for past 25 years. Money is no problem; he just wants to have a sense of security. I would think keep it simple. Thanks all for the info. BTW, if I told him to take a beginner's class, he would. There's a newer place about 45 minutes North of here that do that; and, they cater to the women with classes, etc. Heck, he might even like it and then I'd have company going to shoot defenseless pieces of paper!
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Old 05-26-2020, 09:34 AM
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All good hardware suggestions above, but even if he decides not to do so (conceal carry or hunt) taking the PA concealed carry or NRA Hunter Safety course (or both) would be excellent ideas.
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Old 05-26-2020, 09:35 AM
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A long gun and full frame handgun is a good home invasion gun, but I think a home defense gun needs to drop in your pocket when you answer a knock at the door.
A compact frame 9mm, like a Shield, fits the task well.

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Old 05-26-2020, 10:01 AM
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@ OP,

As mentioned above, you have received a number of great recommendations. However, what wasn't asked, is what is your brother's mindset? If confronted with an armed threat, is your brother of the mindset that is willing to shoot and potentially take a life, or is there a good chance that he'd either hesitate or freeze? I don't ask the above to insult your brother!

A person more likely to hesitate or freeze could be more likely disarmed by a threat if they are wielding a long arm. You mentioned that your brother is a retired postal employee, might he also have some form of military experience? Knowing that could help with recommendations.

While a shotgun (not a "Shockwave" or V-Tac) I think would be a more viable recommendation, I think that a medium framed 38/357 would provide adequate service, it would also lend itself to more opportunities to be taken out for practice.
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Old 05-26-2020, 10:19 AM
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I think your basic idea, some level of familiarization with a variety of handguns, is not a bad idea. He will decide that some of them do not fit his hand or feel comfortable and maybe find one that does. You can then take it from there.
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Old 05-26-2020, 10:28 AM
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I think you’re on the right track. If he wants a handgun he should get a handgun.

Let him shoot as many of yours as he wants to and then let him decide. Sounds like he’s done alright in life so far doing that.

Honestly, if you’re an experienced shooter he would probably be better off learning safety and the basics from you rather than a local instructor, depending on your comfort level doing it and your brother/brother dynamic.
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Old 05-26-2020, 10:57 AM
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I think a home defense gun needs to drop in your pocket when you answer a knock at the door.
If you feel the need to have a gun on your person before you open the door, why are you opening the door?

If I don't know who you are I don't open the door nonnegotiable full stop, end of sentence.

Having said that, I always have a gun on me so I always have a gun on me when I open the door
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:18 AM
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If you feel the need to have a gun on your person before you open the door, why are you opening the door?
Occasional strangers at the door, such as delivery requiring signature and service people such as exterminators requiring access do happen.
Unexpected knock and hubby usually answers the door, with his carry pocketed, and I stay back to cover with my carry at the ready.
Anyone trying forced entry would have us switch to ready long guns.

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Old 05-26-2020, 11:24 AM
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I think a home defense gun needs to drop in your pocket when you answer a knock at the door.
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If you feel the need to have a gun on your person before you open the door, why are you opening the door?
Why do you assume bigwheelzip is opening the door? You do know you can answer the door without opening it, right?
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:28 AM
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12 ga double barrel coach gun
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:40 AM
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Why do you assume bigwheelzip is opening the door? You do know you can answer the door without opening it, right?
Correct. I guess I didn't make that clear.

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Old 05-26-2020, 11:40 AM
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I think you're on the right track, letting your brother-in-law try different guns and decide for himself what he prefers.

However, gun selection is actually a pretty small part of home defense/security. Does he know how to make his home a "hardened target" that makes thieves/home invaders decide to go elsewhere? Does he know how to layer security to make it difficult for someone to get in, giving him time to go to a designated safe room? Does he have a safe room? Does he have a means to call 911 from the safe room?

He doesn't have to break the bank to set this up. His safe room could be set up by installing a solid-core door in his bedroom with a deadbolt lock and a charged cell phone. He could make sure exterior doors are solid-core with good deadbolt locks. Motion-detector lights outside his home can be effective. Clearing away bushes and shrubbery from doorways and windows can remove hiding places for would-be thieves/invaders. If you have the means, a security system and/or cameras can be a good idea. Just some examples.

And to echo federali's suggestion, he should also learn about the law and legal implications. Not only what he can and can't do, but also what he should and shouldn't do.

As well as tactics, such as developing a response plan and practicing it occasionally, working out potential lines of fire, etc.

And situational awareness. It's not unheard of for home invaders to follow their victims home.

Some first aid/trauma training would be worth having, too.

He doesn't necessarily have to do this all at once, or even do all of them. Just some suggestions.
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:57 AM
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I would join those who recommend adhering to the KISS principle and start him out with a mid-size double-action revolver in .38. I’ve steered a few friends and acquaintances toward a police surplus Model 10.

Economically priced, controllable to shoot and simple to handle.

I consider any long gun as the only gun inside a home to be problematic unless the person does home defense as a hobby, like most here on the forum do in one way or another. Maneuvering a shotgun or AR-sized rifle inside normal hallways and rooms requires tactical considerations that are simply beyond a regular guy who wants to keep a gun just in case.

And being able to hold the gun out if sight while approaching or interacting with a “suspicious” person who turns out to be not suspicious at all is desirable, as that scenario is much more common than the worst case. Most of the time, when you answer the door and there is a stranger, the guy wants to sell you insurance or tell you about Jesus, not attack you
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Old 05-26-2020, 12:03 PM
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OP, I believe you have a workable strategy. I'd start out with the .22 revolver before moving to the Model 10; then, on to the semi-automatics to minimize the dreaded "flinch".

The revolvers first strategy, helps the new shooter learn to manage a greater variety of triggers and opens up more options for the future.

A qualified firearms instructor who can detect bad habits developing will be beneficial to his long term success as a gun owner and shooter.

I would not encourage him to opt for a shotgun over a handgun if he has never had experience shooting them.

Home defense is as much about hardening the homestead as it is about becoming a proficient shooter and responsible gun owner.
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Old 05-26-2020, 12:06 PM
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A 442 or the 20 gauge pump.
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Old 05-26-2020, 12:17 PM
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Why do you assume bigwheelzip is opening the door? You do know you can answer the door without opening it, right?

If you're not opening the door why do you need to specifically grab a gun before going to the door?


Let me try to try to communicate my point in a different way.

Have you heard people say "I only carry a gun when go somewhere where I might need it." and someone else says "If where you're going is so bad you think you might need a gun, why are you going there?" This is the same concept.

First let me state clearly that I carry a gun at home so REGARDLESS of who knocks on my door I open the door with a gun on me just like BWZ. I'm just not making a special point of taking a gun to the door.

Second the rule in my house is we don't open the door until the identity of the person on the other side is known. If there's any question that it isn't safe to open the door we don't period.

I can't think of a single time that we weren't able to identify the person knocking before we opened the door.
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Old 05-26-2020, 12:37 PM
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I always recommend a revolver for beginners but many guys just don't want one, they'll say they want a semi-auto pistol which isn't a bad choice either just not quite a simple. For those folks I would probably recommend an M&P 9mm compact with 4" barrel and thumb safety. It has Glock 19 size and capacity but has the thumb safety which I prefer and I think a beginner REALLY needs, plus it has a consistent trigger and no decocker or cocked and lock carry, which I think is for more for advanced shooters. 9m/m is about the cheapest centerfire cartridge and that would be an incentive to get in a lot of practice.

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Old 05-26-2020, 12:44 PM
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If you're not opening the door why do you need to specifically grab a gun before going to the door?
Because if their intent is to invade your home they may try to force their way in if you don't open the door.
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Old 05-26-2020, 12:48 PM
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I can't think of a single time that we weren't able to identify the person knocking before we opened the door.
I always identify who a visitor purports to be before opening the door, but someone could be wearing a legitimate ID and uniform and be present for a legitimate reason, and still turn out to be a threat.
Really the same process every time the exterior door is opened, like for getting the mail or taking out the garbage. Just automatically drop the nearby carry in your pocket. Never leave home without it.



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Old 05-26-2020, 12:50 PM
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I would probably recommend an M&P 9mm compact with 4" barrel and thumb safety. It has Glock 19 size and capacity but has the thumb safety which I prefer and I think a beginner REALLY needs, plus it has a consistent trigger and no decocker or cocked and lock carry, which I think is for more for advanced shooters. 9m/m is about the cheapest centerfire cartridge and that would be an incentive to get in a lot of practice.
This makes no sense. You recommend a gun with a thumb safety for new shooters because guns with thumb safeties are for advanced shooters?

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Old 05-26-2020, 12:58 PM
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Because if their intent is to invade your home they may try to force their way in if you don't open the door.
Again thanks. I thought that part was obvious also, but guess not. To hopefully be clear, any perceived threat, the door stays locked and the PD gets called.

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Old 05-26-2020, 01:53 PM
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Because if their intent is to invade your home they may try to force their way in if you don't open the door.

My front door literally has bar on it. Good luck with that.
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:04 PM
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Difficult to safely secure a ready to go shotgun, whereas a pistol can be secured in the bedside pistol vault during the day, with the lid open at nightime. KISS for newbies, pull and fire.

Low threat environment, K frame size revolver loaded with +P .38.

Higher threat environment, Glock 19.

And show him how to use a flashlight with the weapon of choice.
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:22 PM
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Reading all these posts, I must live in the garden of eden, or I'm just not scared enough...

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Old 05-26-2020, 02:28 PM
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Reading all these posts, I must live in the garden of eden, or I'm just not scared enough...
That’s what I meant earlier, by mentioning that most of us have adopted home defense as a hobby
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by hogblue View Post
12 ga double barrel coach gun
Exactly my thought also, but in 20ga. 12ga recoil might be just a bit much for a newb with those short bbls.

Still undecided over hammerless, or exposed hammers AFA a complete newb goes. I have and use both types and am more than comfortable with both. What do you think?

Rob
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:34 PM
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Ruger LCR times two or three
One with night sights, one LCRx DASA
Maybe one with 3” barrel for range play
Couple sets Zeta6 loaders
Night stand, hallway stash, truck gun, concealed
But a bunch of 130grn range ammo
Buy a hundred or so 135 Gold Dot +P
Simple, easy, consistent user interface - teach your sister too
No mags to load, slides to rack, etc.
Later, consider a lever gun in .38/.357
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Old 05-26-2020, 04:01 PM
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My front door literally has bar on it. Good luck with that.
Not everybody has front doors like that.
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Old 05-26-2020, 04:19 PM
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Not everybody has front doors like that.
Several years ago a little street rat attempted to invade my home. He was stopped by the simple fact that we never opened the door. afterwards we decided to upgrade our doors.

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Because if their intent is to invade your home they may try to force their way in if you don't open the door.
If somebody is going to attempt to force a closed and locked door why would you make their job easier by opening it?
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Old 05-26-2020, 04:54 PM
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If somebody is going to attempt to force a closed and locked door why would you make their job easier by opening it?
Ok. You've completely lost me now. Where exactly did I say anything about opening the door?

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Because if their intent is to invade your home they may try to force their way in if you don't open the door.
It's not a difficult concept. If someone is intent on invading your home, it's entirely possible they may try to force their way in even if you don't open the door. Just because your front door is like Fort Knox doesn't mean everbody else has the same door.

I have no idea how to explain it any simpler than that.
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Old 05-26-2020, 05:00 PM
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New shooter.
want's a handgun
Probably won't become an enthusiast

Model 10. Easy and done. Just point and keep squeezing.

Autoloaders, despite their advantages, have a more complicated manual of arms than a revolver.

Remember the KISS principle.
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Old 05-26-2020, 05:54 PM
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Only HE can decide what he's comfortable with.

He should buy what he shoots well and is confident he can handle properly.

If you "make" him take a safety course, he won't appreciate it . He has to WANT to learn at least the basics or it just won't stick.

Good for you in taking him under your wing. All of us gun enthusiasts should take time to do that when asked.
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Old 05-26-2020, 08:05 PM
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Is BIL healthy and strong?

I think the best home defense gun is the Ruger Redhawk. .44 SPC loads in the .44 Rem Mag model. Trying to manage magnum recoil would limit its usefulness.

If you really, really have to shoot somebody, .44 SPC is pretty good for a pistol. It's not as good as a rifle or a shotgun, but it leaves you a free hand to do important stuff.

In 99% of confrontations, the mere appearance of a gun stops the confrontation - no shots fired. The Redhawk is such a big, hulking gun, it should be very noticible to bad guys. You want them to see it. They may not see a Bodyguard .380.

If you have to shoot the Redhawk, it can be done. Reliably.
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Old 05-26-2020, 09:06 PM
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I think the model 10 is ideal.
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Old 05-26-2020, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
This makes no sense. You recommend a gun with a thumb safety for new shooters because guns with thumb safeties are for advanced shooters?


The 1911 carried cocked and lock typically has a very short light trigger pull which can be a bit dangerous when re-holstering if a newbie is not paying attention and has the safety off. Lowering the hammer slowly on a chambered round can also be problematic, and the half cock position on the hammer, is something else to know. Just a lot more to learn and remember for a newbie in my opinion and the M&P with a thumb safety is simpler and with a longer and more forgiving trigger pull.

Last edited by Farmer17; 05-26-2020 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:10 PM
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My BIL has everything secured as far as cellar doors to garage and to driveway with the bars on them, and he always has the front door secured and has the outdoor motion lights, and front door light is on all the time. I always joke with him about how secure he keeps it! He's no slouch if push came to shove, but it IS the city and you never know what nut jobs may show up. The Model 10 was my 1st handgun before I moved to the city, as my friend, who was a FFL, trainer, gunsmith, 2-tour Nam vet, etc., suggested it and it's worked out as a first of quite a few different types of handguns I have. After hearing all of the many ideas I didn't think of and others that sort of backed up some ideas I had, I believe a .357/.38 spl+p would be a good start, and wouldn't hurt to keep a 20 gauge scattergun handy. As far as actually using them in self-defense, I don't think he'd hesitate to the point of being disarmed. Opening the door to an unknown wouldn't happen. I appreciate every one of your suggestions, and I'm going to let him read this post so he has a better idea, and he may even decide on a semi-auto.
On a side note, today my daughter and I took her friend to the handgun range today for her first time (they're 19) and she's hooked now! They took turns on Sarah's .22 single action, and she shot my 9mm Beretta 92, but handed it back after 3 shots. So we have a new shooter in our midst! Again, I thank yinz for all of your inputs; all are taken open minded and serious.
Jeff T.
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  #48  
Old 05-26-2020, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer17 View Post
The 1911 carried cocked and lock typically has a very short light trigger pull which can be a bit dangerous when re-holstering if a newbie is not paying attention and has the safety off. Lowering the hammer slowly on a chambered round can also be problematic, and the half cock position on the hammer, is something else to know. Just a lot more to learn and remember for a newbie in my opinion and the M&P with a thumb safety is simpler and with a longer and more forgiving trigger pull.
Ok. I can see where you're coming from. Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 05-27-2020, 12:02 AM
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Keep in mind that multiple walls can be penetrated with even wimpy guns. I have a Mossberg Shockwave 12 gauge. If it were fired in the average room in a house the pattern wouldn't open up much.

Almost all people instantly recognize the sound of a shot gun shell being racked into the chamber. This may be a sufficient deterrent to cause the intruder to leave. Or it could announce to the intruder you are armed and the intruders first objective changes to disarming the home owner and arming the intruder.

If the poo hit the fan and I were placed in a them or me situation I would target the ankles and feet and then rack in another shell in case the first round didn't deter them.

How about the S&W Governor? Load it with 410 bore small shot.
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Old 05-27-2020, 01:54 AM
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The Shield EZ 380 has gotten PHENOMENAL reviews.

.380 out of a longer barrel such as on the EZ and with today’s modern hollow point will do the job just fine, and the EZ is so, well, EZ to shoot and manipulate it’s a no brainer for a first time elderly gun owner.
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