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  #51  
Old 06-28-2020, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by schutzen-jager View Post
all handguns legally produced in Germany { + every other European country i know of } required registered serial numbers both pre + post WWII ! - many had stock lugs ground off to make them comply with conflicting NFA regulations regarding shoulder stocks prior to 1972 - Ulm + other German manufacturers were not allowed to produce weapons at all till sometime in the 1950's by treaty -

Schürzenjäger,

you are not making much sense, Ulm, 1972 what about the Olympics? Where did the guns have to be marked in Germany? On the frame or on the slide? This is my last post in this B.S. thread, Du weisst ja eh alles besser.
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Old 06-28-2020, 05:12 PM
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Schürzenjäger,

you are not making much sense, Ulm, 1972 what about the Olympics? Where did the guns have to be marked in Germany? On the frame or on the slide? This is my last post in this B.S. thread, Du weisst ja eh alles besser.
you stated in your post # 43 - that you had a post war Ulm produced PP with no serial # - Germany has required serial numbers + proofing of all legally produced firearms since 1890 - the 1972 reference was to U.S. ATF ruling on P08 , C96 , + other stock lugged pistols + NFA status -
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  #53  
Old 06-28-2020, 05:19 PM
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That's not quite correct. There's been Lugers with no serial numbers and/or proof marks talked about on Jan Still's Luger forum as well as others. I'm not saying the gun in the original post is one of them, but they are out there.
How many of those are aknowledged? And what is the explanation offered?

Asking because I don't have Jan Still's book.
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Old 06-29-2020, 06:55 AM
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any without serial numbers did not leave factory thru legal channels - lunch box specials - slave labor sneaks for resistance fighters - post war parts assembled for souvenirs - between 1968 + 1986 thousands of parts kits less receivers were imported here because of U.S. import restrictions , after restrictions were lifted in 1986 many bare frames were imported , receivers all had to be marked + serial numbered to import them -
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Old 06-29-2020, 07:58 AM
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How many of those are aknowledged? And what is the explanation offered?

Asking because I don't have Jan Still's book.
I've never read any estimate on numbers. I've heard various theories such as the lunchbox specials, gun built late war just post war from parts or even rejected frames. I doubt it's a huge number, but I have seen photos of them and read accounts from noted collectors about them.
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  #56  
Old 06-29-2020, 09:11 AM
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Back to the Luger, since it appears to be DWM manufactured (no stock lug unless ground off) then it was made before mid 1913. If it is original finish then the interior of the frame should be in the white. Also, all small parts should be a straw finish.
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  #57  
Old 06-29-2020, 09:18 AM
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I've never read any estimate on numbers. I've heard various theories such as the lunchbox specials, gun built late war just post war from parts or even rejected frames. I doubt it's a huge number, but I have seen photos of them and read accounts from noted collectors about them.
Right after WWI ended there were a few odd years indeed. Lots of parts and unfinished pistols around when the gun industry went from full speed production to a sudden stop in a Country in internal turmoil and an uncertain future. This pistol could very well have come from this period. But my guess is we will never know.

I don't favor a WWII scenario much just because that frame didn't come from Mauser.
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  #58  
Old 06-29-2020, 09:25 AM
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Back to the Luger, since it appears to be DWM manufactured (no stock lug unless ground off) then it was made before mid 1913. If it is original finish then the interior of the frame should be in the white. Also, all small parts should be a straw finish.
Agree on DWM parts(the frame at least). But it appears it did not came out of DWM as a full pistol, at least not "officially".
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  #59  
Old 06-29-2020, 01:30 PM
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Agree on DWM parts(the frame at least). But it appears it did not came out of DWM as a full pistol, at least not "officially".
It also has a non-relieved sear bar, something that didn't change until around 1916 if I'm remembering correctly.

I would like to see a top pic and a front pic.
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Old 06-29-2020, 08:30 PM
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It also has a non-relieved sear bar, something that didn't change until around 1916 if I'm remembering correctly.

I would like to see a top pic and a front pic.
Here are some additional photos.

Masterbuck54
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  #61  
Old 06-29-2020, 08:55 PM
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I see rounded edges in some places. My guess is it was reblued and the numbers scrubbed at that time.

With no serial number I wouldn't own it myself because I could not register it on my permit.
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  #62  
Old 06-29-2020, 10:16 PM
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While I agree some corners are rounded suggesting refinishing, it takes a fair amount of grinding to erase serials. Does anybody think that enough metal is AWOL to do that from these pictures?
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  #63  
Old 06-29-2020, 11:03 PM
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The markings on the top of the barrel and toggle are deep on all three of mine. It would be hard to polish them off without removing a lot of metal. This is pictures of two of them.
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  #64  
Old 06-29-2020, 11:40 PM
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So I guess I just need to buy some Luger 30 ammo and shoot this thing.

Once I’m pushing up daisies one of my boys will inherit this pistol.

I’m only into this for $170 so no great loss for me.

Masterbuck54
You gotta be kidding! $170 is a steal, even for a parts frankengun with serial number "issues".
I'd buy that in a heartbeat, even chambered in 30 Luger, assuming it could pass the transfer process.
At the gunshow this last weekend I looked at one that was pitted parts in a box with ZERO finish, and no guarantee it was even complete and the guy wanted $350 for it.
Naturally I passed since I have this one I bought for $400 a year or so ago.
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  #65  
Old 06-30-2020, 09:57 AM
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I see that 22lrfan has an S/42 1936-dated Mauser P.08. I also have one from the same year, together with a 1936-dated original holster. This was a souvenir bringback from WWII.

John

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Old 06-30-2020, 10:07 AM
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Mine is an S/42 dated 1937 and isn't near as pretty as yours.....

(Pitted, heavily buffed and reblued, but shoots just fine.)
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  #67  
Old 06-30-2020, 10:44 AM
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While I agree some corners are rounded suggesting refinishing, it takes a fair amount of grinding to erase serials. Does anybody think that enough metal is AWOL to do that from these pictures?
It is possible. During the height of wartime production during WWI sometimes the markings were not as deep as in the one 22lrfan shows which was made in "peace time". I have seen some DWM made pistols with rather shallow markings.
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Old 06-30-2020, 11:35 AM
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I see rounded edges in some places. My guess is it was reblued and the numbers scrubbed at that time.

With no serial number I wouldn't own it myself because I could not register it on my permit.
I would say heavily buffed/refinished myself. Who knows?...it could've been refinished more than once?....maybe had been nickeled and then stripped and blued?....may have been heavily pitted at some point and buffed back smooth?....or any combination of the above. I've seen pics of other P08 pistols that were about devoid of the usual markings from a heavy duty refinish. Unfortunate but fairly common on handguns that get rusty and used then made pretty again.

I own an crusty old Weimer era Luger that if you buffed the rust pits off would not be much left of the original markings

The serial number thing I suppose could be an issue...Did you buy the gun from a dealer?...If so he likely just put NSN for the serial #....If it was a private sale deal I would simply keep record of where I got it and not worry about it too much.

Last edited by Stevie; 06-30-2020 at 11:38 AM.
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  #69  
Old 06-30-2020, 12:52 PM
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I would say heavily buffed/refinished myself. Who knows?...it could've been refinished more than once?....maybe had been nickeled and then stripped and blued?....may have been heavily pitted at some point and buffed back smooth?....or any combination of the above. I've seen pics of other P08 pistols that were about devoid of the usual markings from a heavy duty refinish. Unfortunate but fairly common on handguns that get rusty and used then made pretty again.

I own an crusty old Weimer era Luger that if you buffed the rust pits off would not be much left of the original markings

The serial number thing I suppose could be an issue...Did you buy the gun from a dealer?...If so he likely just put NSN for the serial #....If it was a private sale deal I would simply keep record of where I got it and not worry about it too much.
fyi
only legal to use NSN designation if firearm is documented as being originally manufactured with out a serial number - all legally produced PO8 had serial numbers -
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:49 PM
GypsmJim GypsmJim is offline
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While I agree some corners are rounded suggesting refinishing, it takes a fair amount of grinding to erase serials. Does anybody think that enough metal is AWOL to do that from these pictures?
Mine is a double date 1917 DWM. The original markings are very thin and could be polished off easily. OTOH, the 1920 re-date is fairly deep.

Also, as a redate it has several Police Unit markings, some Xed out when the gun was transferred to another unit. Those markings are REAL deep.

My theory is that the OPs gun is either a lunchbox gun as some have eluded to, or it was an early Weimar gun that escaped before the end of the war and got reblued..
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Old 06-30-2020, 04:33 PM
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While I agree some corners are rounded suggesting refinishing, it takes a fair amount of grinding to erase serials. Does anybody think that enough metal is AWOL to do that from these pictures?
It's easy to take that amt of metal off, especially using a belt grinder.
Even a coarse hand file will do it in a few strokes. Then buff it up for a nice shine!

The top of the toggles have been taken way down. Easy to see by looking at the front and rear edges of the top flat surfaces. There are steep cuts and dips coming into and out of the flat area and up into the togglepin support areas.
A lot of matrl was removed to cut off the makers logo. But it's fairly thick there anyway. Same on the rear toggle. you can see the dished out radius as the flat area climbs back out and up to the rear sight.

The front of the frame looks more rounded like it was heavily hit w/a buffer.

Proof marks are usually quite shallow. Those are placed on the finished/hardened assembled pistol. The stamps very often don't have much impression depth into the final heat treated frame and upper. So they can disappear easily in a refinish if you're not careful

The bbl's are quite soft. They mark deeply usually. This one doesn't look like it was # or proofed marked at all and then polished out. That's why I think it's a replacement bbl.
Could be a commercial aftermarket. May be a Military Arsenal made replacement.

The breech block and toggles can be extremely hard, others not too bad.
Probably the hardest I've noted are those on the Erfurt mfg Lugers. Along with the Erfurt upper unit which is also very hard.
Sometimes you can just barely cut it with a file,,sometimes not at all.

Most would be surprised how much metal can be removed from the parts of a gun in refinishing, restoration and not have it crumble like a piece of foil.
Markings, pitting, scars, dents, ect are usually removeable w/o going to welding or other filler methods.
..and then sometimes not!
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:10 PM
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You might check, but in my state possession of a firearm with an altered sn is a violation. ATF can sometimes bring up a filed sn but not always. Doesn't matter if YOU altered the sn, it's a possession of that's the charge. Prosecutors don't have to prove your gun never had a sn, they can simply prove that all the rest of the P.08s do.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:03 AM
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Who's to say the frame was ever serial numbered?

I have seen some FFL weirdness on old milsurp handguns. I bought an old used Ballester Molina from a nearby gun store and they entered the barrel number as the gun's serial number....even after I showed them the frame number! I did make them write the frame number in the margins on the form.

Old milsurp rifles....A jungle carbine with a faint serial number had been arsenal re-stamped with the same serial number..I would say that's an altered serial number. Another British rifle a No.4 Mk.I had all the old maker/serial info scrubbed off and the Indian RFI arsenal refurbed the gun with their RFI markings and a new serial number on the other side of the butt-socket....definitely an altered serial number!

Now if this old Luger was something other than an old Luger....like say a S&W model 10 or other more modern handgun with a scrubbed serial number then I would say that's a big issue! My guess is that the ATF would not be too interested in an old Luger that's likely just been re-built into a 7.65mm shooter. Of course if you live in a 'Draconian' gun law state or do something to earn the interest of law enforcement...then the ATF will find something to crucify a fellow...the Luger might be just the ticket the guv/le needs...The powers that be might simply consider 02 as the serial number...depends on which what and who you are dealing with

Just my opinion and I am sure others will differ
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:42 AM
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...... Now if this old Luger was something other than an old Luger....

My guess is that the ATF would not be too interested in an old Luger that's likely just been re-built into a 7.65mm shooter. Of course if you live in a 'Draconian' gun law state or do something to earn the interest of law enforcement...then the ATF will find something to crucify a fellow...the Luger might be just the ticket the guv/le needs...The powers that be might simply consider 02 as the serial number...depends on which what and who you are dealing with
.....
^^^ I think this summarizes the reality best.

These discussions tend to go round and round. There is no argument that this gun technically is not legal. The only question is whether that is anything to worry about.

As current and retired LEOs on this forum have pointed out, lots of miscreants have been nailed for being in possession of illegally altered guns when they were arrested ... for their actual crimes.

But it is significant that in our gun community where a) people love to worry, and b) are paranoid about ATF and love sharing horror stories of ATF persecution, nobody, and I mean NOT ONE, credible case has been documented, in the 52 years since the GCA, of a collector or gun owner getting in any kind of legal trouble just for a non-criminal serial number issue on a pre-1968 gun.

Do I want to risk being the first? No, so I don’t go looking for such guns. But in terms of risk, if I ended up with one, my worry would be at maybe the level of worrying about an airliner flying at 30,000 feet overhead losing an engine which smashes my house with me inside. Could happen, but then again ...
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:20 PM
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I guess it all depends on your tolerance for risk or the "odds".
Personally I wouldn't touch one with an altered/defaced serial number, but then again I don't invest in the stock market or buy lottery tickets either.
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Old 07-02-2020, 02:01 PM
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Who's to say the frame was ever serial numbered?

I have seen some FFL weirdness on old milsurp handguns. I bought an old used Ballester Molina from a nearby gun store and they entered the barrel number as the gun's serial number....even after I showed them the frame number! I did make them write the frame number in the margins on the form.

Old milsurp rifles....A jungle carbine with a faint serial number had been arsenal re-stamped with the same serial number..I would say that's an altered serial number. Another British rifle a No.4 Mk.I had all the old maker/serial info scrubbed off and the Indian RFI arsenal refurbed the gun with their RFI markings and a new serial number on the other side of the butt-socket....definitely an altered serial number!

Now if this old Luger was something other than an old Luger....like say a S&W model 10 or other more modern handgun with a scrubbed serial number then I would say that's a big issue! My guess is that the ATF would not be too interested in an old Luger that's likely just been re-built into a 7.65mm shooter. Of course if you live in a 'Draconian' gun law state or do something to earn the interest of law enforcement...then the ATF will find something to crucify a fellow...the Luger might be just the ticket the guv/le needs...The powers that be might simply consider 02 as the serial number...depends on which what and who you are dealing with

Just my opinion and I am sure others will differ
the number 02 in question could only legally be a serial number if stamped on receiver + not on any other part ! - all post 1968 milsurps with restamped serial numbers numbers had to be recorded as such with ATF to be legal to import or sell -
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Old 07-02-2020, 03:21 PM
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This may be a stretch, but you may have what is known as a "PX Luger". At the end of the war, Krieghoff made a number of P.08 pistols from mixed maker parts (Mauser, Simson, Krieghoff) for sale to US GI's while.occupying Germany. I recommend taking a dozen good pictures of this luger from every angle and sending them to the owner of Legacy Collectibles. He has been identifying lugers for a long time, and can likely help with this mystery (usually free of charge).

Here is a PX Luger with no toggle markings:

Rare PX Luger - End of War | Legacy Collectibles
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  #78  
Old 07-02-2020, 03:30 PM
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Luger P.08 age and value? Luger P.08 age and value? Luger P.08 age and value? Luger P.08 age and value? Luger P.08 age and value?  
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if a PX by Krieghoff from military parts it would be in 9mm + not 7.65 + it would have a serial numbered receiver + a stock lug ! -

Last edited by schutzen-jager; 07-02-2020 at 03:34 PM. Reason: addendum
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Old 07-02-2020, 05:49 PM
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A friend has an unmarked PPK that his dad brought back from WW2. His dad told me that his unit had occupied the Walther factory and he was able to find everything except the grips rummaging through the factory. He found grips after returning stateside and had the assembled pistol blued. Only marking I remember seeing was the caliber marking on the barrel. I also found out much later that we only occupied the Walther factory for a couple days before the Russians moved in and looted EVERYTHING. So if where the serial number should be does not looked buffed this pistol could have had a similar history.
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Old 07-02-2020, 06:11 PM
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The unmarked Walther pistols is documented and recognized by collectors and those who know about such things. It's referred to above, and you described it exactly as it happened. They don't have a whole lot of collector value; not proofed and 1945 production values were roughly finished.

But the same scenario couldn't have happened with Lugers. They stopped being produced in 1943.
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Old 07-02-2020, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene L View Post
.....
But the same scenario couldn't have happened with Lugers. They stopped being produced in 1943.
Well ..... not entirely.

Obviously this does not apply to this gun, but just for the record:

The East German N 1001 series of the P 08 (no period between P and 08 in EG usage; N = Neufertigung, new production) from 1953, a very small run of about 100, was newly manufactured in Suhl from scratch, not assembled from reconditioned pre-1945 parts as widely assumed.
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