Ok here's another one I purchased this week that I'm not familiar with.

By looking on line it appears it's a Luger P.08 (please correct me if I've misidentified it).

No serial numbers I can find (I haven't disassembled it yet).

The only markings are an "02" that I've shown in the photos.

How does one determine its age?

What value would one place on one in this condition?

So can I assume this shoots a 9mm round? I tried one in the magazine and fits.

Came with two magazines.

I really need to stay away from guns I have no idea about

Masterbuck54

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Most call me Pete- SWCA#3248

That "02" is serial numbered parts. If there's no serial number on the front of the frame, looking with the barrel pointed at your face, my guess is that it was taken out of the factory before it was officially finished. I'd be curious to see the gun disassembled to see if any of the other parts had the matching "02". Are there any proof marks on it?

Most Lugers have a date and the manufacturer stamped on top just in front of the toggle. Germans numbered just about everything so that one is an odd piece as I can see several parts that should be numbered but aren't. The magazine has an older wooden bottom, is it numbered?

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

There will normally be something (often a 3-letter code or S/42) stamped on the top surface of the toggle, and the full SN (plus a letter) will be stamped on both the front of the frame and the bottom of the barrel. Plus nearly every component part will have the last two digits of the SN stamped on them. Very strange that yours does not, and I have no explanation.

Masterbuck54, That's a pretty nice looking Luger! Many years ago I was heavily into WWII milsurps, allies as well as axis firearms. The best Luger I had at the time, was a all original 41 byf (Mauser from the Oberndorf, Germany factory in November 1941). My example pictured below was what collectors called a "Black Widow" due to its all black plastic grips, which were unique to the pistol.

How do we find out all of this? Lugers were manufactured in "blocks" of approx. 10,000 at a time. By late 1942 Germany had shifted to manufacture of the less costly P-38 and the last Luger made at Oberndorf was s/n 9244 "i" block in November 1942.

All parts that are serial numbered (and there are several) carry the last 2 digits of the serial number (example my Luger was serial number 3577 "y" block (see pic) so all parts numbered had 77 stamped on them. The proof marks were usually double Eagles with E655. The magazines were also proofed with Eagle 37, and fxo. The magazine with my Luger was original and dated to C.G. Hanel Fabrication Plant in late November 1941.

If you seriously want to get more information and other Luger expert opinions, consider joining Jan Still's "Axis Powers" Forum. They have an astounding bunch of Luger guy's that really know their stuff on these Lugers.

As to value...an all matching P-08, wartime manufacture, original finish with original mag are in the $2,000 and up range when you can find them. Mismatched, non original grips and mags drops value considerably, however my opinion is now at least 10 years old so you may be surprised.

Anyway....enjoy the pics of my old 41 byf Black Widow Luger.

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	Luger right side.jpg (55.6 KB, 88 views)
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	top marks.jpg (38.1 KB, 102 views)
	double eagle proofs.jpg (36.8 KB, 75 views)

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Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

caliber ? - markings on toggle + top of receiver ? - proof marks on barrel ? -

No other markings other than the "02" as shown two places which must be the last two digits of the serial#.

No proof markings.

No caliber marked on the barrel.

I will have to check the two magazines that came with it and pull off the grips to see if they might be numbered.

It still remains a mystery??

Masterbuck54

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Most call me Pete- SWCA#3248

apx diameter of bore will establish caliber - any marking under safety lever ? - there is a number 03 stamped on sear bar - there are markings [ 3 digits ? ] that i can't make out in picture #4 on receiver flat below + to right of sear bar 03 marking -

The absence of (many) visible numbers suggest it has been refinished.

As noted above, the serial number should be on the forward frame above the trigger guard, the nearby barrel, and the last two digits a bunch of other places like the sideplate.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Just as a nit-picking point of information. It's "P.08" not "P-08." The "P." was an abbreviation for "Pistole."

In Germany, this was pronounced (phonetically) as "Pay oct."

Same goes for the P.38, pronounced "Pay oct oond dry-sig" in German.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Bore measures 0.303"

Wording under safety (see photo).

I had my wife look with a magnifying glass for any additional numbers other than the two places that reflect the "02" since she is a lot younger than me

Still no other markings.

Neither magazine marked.

And I corrected to read P.08

Attached a couple photos of the holster that came with it...obviously a new one.

Masterbuck54

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Most call me Pete- SWCA#3248

With a .303" bore it'll most likely be chambered for 7.65 Luger / .30 Luger.
The 9mm Luger was in essence the 7.65 Luger /.30 Luger necked up to a tapered straight wall case.

Assuming it has all original parts, which does not appear to be the case, then you'd have a no chamber marked pistol with no stock lug, no grip safety with a 4" barrel, chambered in 7.65 Luger with a "GESICHERT" marked serrated safety lever.

The first option that comes on an identification chart using those features as a starting point is a 1908 Commercial Luger. However, they had a wide trigger with a narrow trigger guard. Yours looks like a wide trigger and wide trigger guard. They only made about 10,000 of them, so they are uncommon and one in un-refinished very good condition would bring around $2000.

The other 7.65 Luger / .30 Luger option with those features is the 1923 Stoeger American Eagle. But it had a wide trigger with a narrow trigger guard. They were rare and one in un-refinished very good condition would bring around $4000.

And in either case, it's a long list of very definitive markings that determine/confirm what it is and without them it's just a parts gun.

For reference purposes, a correct, matching number, DWM made pattern 1914 P.08 Luger is worth around $800-$1000 in very good condition. They were the most common P.08 variant.

Examples of P.08 Lugers in 7.65 Luger / .30 Luger bring a substantial premium as it's a less commonly encountered caliber.

However, without matching numbers the value of any Luger drops by about half. Similarly, a refinish will cut the value by about have.

That said, in both cases the floor is about $500 just due to their utility as a shooter.

Realistically, that's about where yours is at given the probable refinish and parts gun status, with maybe $100-$200 more due to the less common caliber.

Is the absence of a serial number a legal problem for the owner, or does that problem not apply here for some reason?

In this particular case I would agree.

Lots of things "weird" in this pistol.

The one that bothers me the most. Is the lack of serial number. This pistol would be completely ilegal where I live.

Edit. @ Masterbuck. Please go down an see my post # 26.

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Expect the unexpected

The firearm that is shown is an early frame, without the Mauser hump that the Wehrmacht had required. The P.08 designation was added onto the left side of the frame in 1941. Civilian versions were called Selbstladepistole Parabellum. The long version was adopted by the Kriegsmarine in 1904 and it was termed the 04. In 1908 the Parabellum was adopted by the Reichswehr as the model 08. The "." in P.08 came much later and details can be found on page 223 of the inexpensive book of Hallock & van de Kamp and the directive that required the marking.

In the absence of military markings it is a Selbstlade Pistole Parabellum, no Null Acht and no 06/29 or anything else.

So I guess I just need to buy some Luger 30 ammo and shoot this thing.

Once I’m pushing up daisies one of my boys will inherit this pistol.

I’m only into this for $170 so no great loss for me.

Masterbuck54

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Most call me Pete- SWCA#3248

holster is definitely a reproduction - my guess is tat it is pieced together from a parts kit that were sold by several suppliers 20+ years ago - i would have it checked by a gunsmith for head space + safety before using it -

Hey, the serial number is obviously 02

At $170 for this Luger, me don’t know nuthin’ better ....

the #2 would have to be stamped on frame proper to make it legally a serial number ! -

Such as here, 1912:

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If the gun has been in this country since before the GCA required a serial number in 1968, it is legal if there is no serial number. NSN is a valid entry in 4473 according to Section C Question 24-28..

Yes, I have a DWM manual with some info on it but the Hallock & van de Kamp is probably the best and most exhaustive info on the Pistole Null-Acht made between 1930-1945, unfortunately those are not found on the used market for under $800.

The P08 officially became the P.08 in 1941, that is also the year that the P38 became the P.38. The model shown by the OP has no Mauser hump, i.e. it is most likely not a Mauser made frame and that puts it well before 1941.
As to the two digits on the small parts, those were usually just numbered with the last wo digits and give a clue but no certainty.

The gun pictured to the right is pretty identical with the Swiss 06/29 - when chambered in 7,65 Para.

Here's another forum with outstanding experts on the P.08:

Pistole Parabellum

They eat up solving these kinds of mysteries. (My personal bet it that it was refinished after a complete strip....but ask these guys, they'll figure it out.)

I would think not, as it apparently never had a factory-applied SN.

And since pronunciation was addressed earlier:

The P.08 in common German parlance was always simply the “null-acht”, without the P. I had folks in my parents’ and grandparents’ generation with first-hand experience. They’d never heard the name “Luger”, by the way, until I mentioned it after reading my first English gun books (Ian Hogg, I believe) in the 1970s.

The P.38, on the other hand, never was the “drei-acht”, as one might expect, but always fully pronounced with the P as “P achtunddreissig”.

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For $170 you did very good. The parts alone are 4xplus that value.

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Expect the unexpected

Et tu, Brutus?

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Expect the unexpected

That in itself. Would be very strange indeed.

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Expect the unexpected

They were only marked as P.08 because, and when, the "new" model P.38 started to appear(yes. In spite of being called P.38. They only started to reach the "customers" in 1940. Walther was at "full swing" in 1941 only and Mauser was ordered to end P.08 production in 1942 and start P.38 production instead).

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Expect the unexpected

'NSN' is a valid FFL log book entry IF the gun was mfg'd that way.
..and some .22rf long guns and some shotguns were before GCA'68.

Prior to GCA'68, all handguns (and centerfire rifles) had to be serial numbered if mfg'rd in the USA.

The only thing that changed with the implementation of the GCA68 was that from then on (12/'68 and forward),,cal.22rf long guns and all shotguns were ALSO required to be ser#'d by their mfg'r.

The removal, alteration,obliteration of a mfg'rs applied ser# or possession or sale of a firearm with such a ser# has been a Fed. Felony since the Federal Firearms Act 1938 (FDR).

Wikidedia can't seem to get this right.


As to the Luger, It looks like a Refinished Luger that also has some replacement parts on it. Some of those replacements may/may not have been refinished. Or they may have been refinished at another time. Not the same bluing batch.

The toggle is 'blank'. That isn't all that unusual in a heavy refinish. If pitted there the flat area is easily taken down to elliminate the pitting and the marking disappears.
The toggle looks taken down considerably in the pic, almost to the edge of the chamfer on both sides of the toggle block.
Proofs disappear from the sides of the upper and the sides of the toggle(s) during polishing also. They are not that heavily punched anyway.

It looks like there is a Ser# on the bottom edge of the side plate.
If so that would be a Commercial Model side plate and that style Ser#'g placement.
But the side plate could be just another replacement part w/another #.

A replacement bbl perhaps. Those un#'d/ void of markings but finished bbls were very common at one time not all that long ago.

The Frame Ser# can be ground off on a belt grinder in a couple swipes during a refinish if you'r not careful or watchful,,or don't care.

If it was indeed a Commercial model, there would not have been a chamber marking to begin with.
There would have been a toggle marking (DWM..)
A simple commercial proof on the front left side of the upper most likely (Crown/N) and then the much less crowded commercial ser# marking placement.

The lack of frame ser# is something for others to sort out. It's been beaten to death here many times.
All I can say is everyone knows what the simple Fed Reg says and it hasn't ever changed since 1938.
..and Parabellums weren't mfg'd w/o ser#'s.

JM.02

The . was put by Wehrmacht requirement, nothing else.

Exactly, that one was NOT manufactured here. I was referring to ATF info, not internet lore. We have had enough of that in this thread alone. And guesses, too.

Strange things happen. I will not make an assessment of the gun based on photos that can be deceiving but I see no sign of an aggressive refinish, enough to grind markings off.
However, I can assure you that there are always ways to do things - and Germans did not only come with great technical designs but with ways to avoid being controlled by the government.

I learnt chess from an early age on and am trying to be at least one move ahead of the the other guy.

serial numbers on handguns required prior to 1968 - GCA 68 added long arms to serial number requirements - entry on 4473 can only be used legally on firearms that are documented as being manufactured with out a serial number -

serial number required on all commercially imported foreign pistols prior to GCA 68 -

Quoted from Section D Question 24-28 ATF Form 4473, revised October 2016:

Firearms manufactured after 1968 by Federal firearms licenses should all be marked with a serial number. Should you acquire a firearm that is legally not marked with a serial number (i.e. pre-1968): you may answer question 26 with"NSN" ( No Serial Number), "N/A" or "None".

Current import rules by ATF would require the markings of the importer, calibre, model, country of origin, manufacturer and serial number to be engraved in a conspicuous way with a minimum size of 1/16" height and 0.003"depth.
Since I do not know if this was a commercially manufactured gun and no importer marks indicate an import by a licensed importer post 1968, I would answer Question 26 in Section D, the one the FFL fills out, as "NSN".

I am more concerned with the fact, that I could only guess that DWM made the frame but that is a guess, nothing more.

serial numbers on pistols go back to late 1800's well before ATF existed + firearms were controlled by U.S. Treasury Dept. regulations -

Look at the frame where the ser# is supposed to be,,,does it look like it's been gone over with a belt grinder or a file?
Plenty of guns show up all the time with the ser# gone from a previous refinishing job.
It's not hard to tell they've been refinished at some point.
A quick measurement will also tell if the front of the frame has been taken down and the # removed.

If they look like the # has been erased,,then the # has been obliterated.
You know what that means

If it was stolen from the factory before ser#'g,,then is stolen.

Time doesn't make either one of those facts go away.

You can rationalize it away anyway you like, but reality remains.
No Lugers were manufactured with out serial numbers (or proof marks or Manufacturers markings),,That includes Military or Commercial production.

We can speculate how come the pistol is not serial numbered, but it all boils down to the fact that it's not serial numbered now. Which means you'd have a hard time selling it legally. It's in too-good shape to be original finish, so we can assume comfortably (I think) that it's been polished heavily, and done quite well. The Whys it was done we'll never know.

It may very well have been refinished, I couldn't tell without having it in hand, but you can't base it on "in too-good shape to be original finish". There are superb condition Lugers out there are 100% original.

Who would know after a century???? In the 1960s there were still frames taken out of the trash bins by employees in German gun factories that were not up to specification and that is mentioned in the Korth book by Morgenstern.
Even if the parts had been stolen in Germany from the factory, which we have no proof for, the statute of limitations for that were and are 20 years in Germany.

Yes there are. And they have the serial number(in 3 places), and the last 2 digits of the same serial number in most parts. And they have proof marks either civilian or military.

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Expect the unexpected

One thing is certain, it is not an 06 frame, it is a frame without a safety, yet without provision for the shoulder stock. The frame was not made by Mauser and strawing of small parts is present. If the gun is still rust blued, which is easy to verify, a refinish is unlikely but not impossible. The gun is in .30 Luger, a calibre that was mostly used in the early years, pre-1908, and after the treaty of Versailles.

From a look at the photos I think a refinish that would erase all markings has not taken place but without a close look at it, it is just speculation.

Fact is, that Walther in Ulm made Walther PP in post-war Germany without serial numbers on either frame or slide. I have seen one personally.

These PP pistols you mention were captured not in Post War, but during the last days of WW 2 before they were finished and were mis-matched and unproven. Lots more about them on the Walther forum. Bringbacks captured at the factory and put together from parts.

Post War Germany wasn't allowed to manufacture PP pistols at all for quite a while, in fact.

Like I said, You can rationalize it away any way you chose to.

There were frames and parts stolen out of the two USA gun factorys I worked in in the 70's. That was a long time ago to many.
But the fact remains that the gun(s) and parts were stolen.

Like I said a good look at the frame (where the ser# on any Luger ever mfg'd by any one of the number of different makers) is supposed to be will tell you if the area has been dinked with and the number removed.
All we know is that there is no Ser#.

IF it was removed,,IF the answer is yes,,then the mfg'rs applied ser# has been removed, obliterated or altered.
Even you know what that means as far as US Fed Law.

Doesn't matter by who,,when,,why.
Doesn't matter what happened in the Korth Werks.
Doesn't matter what may have been at DWM if someone got sticky fingers.
Doesn't matter what the shoplifting statutes are in Germany.


It's simply the mfg's applied ser# has either been removed,,or it hasn't.
That's the first question that absolutely has to be answered before going forward.
..and it's pretty simple to see. But we haven't.
So it's the end of the trail.

End of my story
Plain as that.
NGIWASNIA

Notice that the word "Luger" does not appear anywhere in the ad.

all handguns legally produced in Germany { + every other European country i know of } required registered serial numbers both pre + post WWII ! - many had stock lugs ground off to make them comply with conflicting NFA regulations regarding shoulder stocks prior to 1972 - Ulm + other German manufacturers were not allowed to produce weapons at all till sometime in the 1950's by treaty -

That's not quite correct. There's been Lugers with no serial numbers and/or proof marks talked about on Jan Still's Luger forum as well as others. I'm not saying the gun in the original post is one of them, but they are out there.

Indeed. The adoption of the Luger instead of the Parabellum moniker both for the pistol and for the 9mm caliber is generally credited to a gentleman named Hans Tauscher, which explains why it was largely confined to the English-speaking world.

He was a sales agent residing in New York City who represented DWM, manufacturer of the pistol, in US Army trials and then shepherded commercial distribution overseas.

US sales ads used the Luger name from early on, like this Abercrombie & Fitch catalog from 1910:

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Don't you wish Grandpa would have stocked up on a few of these for gifts for his grandkids. I know the value of $25 in 1910 is about $675 in 2020, but that's still a bargain