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07-02-2020, 05:31 PM
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The double rifle dream
Don't wake me just yet as it just came home and for some odd reason I like marble cake now. The Queen, Victoria, even commissioned Mr.Grant to build her guns.
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07-02-2020, 05:42 PM
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That is one beautiful rifle Paul. What is the bore, Assuming it is black powder and are you going to shoot it? Thanks for sharing it.
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07-02-2020, 05:45 PM
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I currently believe it to be 450 BPE but haven't checked yet.
Absolutely......probably not much but some.
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07-02-2020, 05:47 PM
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Beautiful gun!
Stunning wood, great Damascus barrels. A real best gun.
No one can do that today.
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07-02-2020, 05:56 PM
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You can't really tell by the pictures I posted but is has what I think they call a cripple stock. I am right handed but left eye dominant so it does work for me.
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07-02-2020, 06:39 PM
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A number of years ago, a series of articles by Ross Seifried was published in Double Gun Journal about reloading the old British bpe and cordite rounds with modern smokeless powder. Well worth reading!
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07-02-2020, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpg
A number of years ago, a series of articles by Ross Seifried was published in Double Gun Journal about reloading the old British bpe and cordite rounds with modern smokeless powder. Well worth reading!
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Thank you Sir.
I've been corresponding with Diggory from there.
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07-02-2020, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherby
Thank you Sir.
I've been corresponding with Diggory from there.
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Did he assist you in acquiring your gun?
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07-02-2020, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpg
Did he assist you in acquiring your gun?
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This was down at the LGS... 
I think it's a bit of cast off
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Last edited by weatherby; 07-02-2020 at 07:13 PM.
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07-02-2020, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherby
Don't wake me just yet as it just came home and for some odd reason I like marble cake now. The Queen, Victoria, even commissioned Mr.Grant to build her guns.
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Good grief !! You have an enviable love for old long guns with BEAUTIFUL wood. Like your AH Fox you posted recently. 
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07-02-2020, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDSTER
Good grief !! You have an enviable love for old long guns with BEAUTIFUL wood. Like your AH Fox you posted recently. |
I am a junkie....both from the same place.
You didn't like little orphan Anne ?
She came from there too.
I know I can't go back for quite a while...too weak.
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07-02-2020, 10:15 PM
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There are 2 different 450 BPE cartridges. one is 2.5", the other is 3.25" The rims are the same diameter as 45-70 but the Brit rounds are very thin!
I have a 450/3.25/Nitro Express by Westly Richards from around 1898 to 1905. The American cartridges of the same length are close enough to use their loading dies! My 450 3 1/4 N.E. dies were almost twice the price as 45-120 Winchester dies! You will need the correct shell holder! American bullets of .458" are the correct diameter but bullet weight very but the bullet shape is what make the problem! RN is definitely not the same as semi-RN!
Forget using Pyrodex! Swiss is probably the best BP available to us now, but Goex has done well for me. In your load development, Try each charge weight in different "F" sizes, you will see velocity changes of up to 50 fps! And that will alter the regulating of the load.
The type of rifling is important! Enfield rifling is for jacketed bullets with smokeless powder; Medford Rifling is for Jacketed bullets with Black Powder. (Medford is rounded, Enfield is very square!) My Nitro Express actually has Medford, because all reloading was done with BP until just before WWI. That gave the owner a choice of ammo. Factory Nitro for Dangerous game and BP for large game. (8 bore was the minimum caliber for Dangerous Game with BP)
On my rifle, a Hornady 350 grain RN over 120 FFFg is dead on at 50 yards using the 100 yard sight (Which is set for a 480 grain Nitro loading).
Ivan
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07-02-2020, 10:28 PM
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Oh my! What a beautiful piece.
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07-02-2020, 10:36 PM
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Thanks Ivan.
You have all the cool toys.
It is bigger than 45 I have since measured looks to be a 50.
I'll be measuring the depth too and seeing if I fimd what the ledger says but by eye looks like 3 1/4
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Last edited by weatherby; 07-03-2020 at 07:08 AM.
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07-03-2020, 07:09 AM
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Wonder where that beautiful firearm has been and what it has seen.
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07-03-2020, 07:30 AM
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HI Vonn by the condition it may not have seen much.I am trying to see whom it was built for as Grant's ledger of builds is intact.
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07-03-2020, 08:08 AM
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500 3" BPE was a very common cartridge. Brit gun used several bore diameters .505 is the most common of the 500's
The under lever action was discontinued in 1905 (I am sure that guns were build on "Old Stock" for a few years after that) Kynok loaded "Smokeless for BP" ammo, your rifle should be able to handle the slightly higher pressures. Cartridges of the World has some basic loading data for you round. but the regulated load should be on the "Watertable" (bottom side of the barrel flats) It will give bullet weight but not diameter!! I should tell if it only has BP proofs of if it has a light Nitro proof, the strength will be in "Tons"
Ivan
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07-03-2020, 08:17 AM
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There is stuff marked but not sure what it means yet. One person said the 38 meant 50 bore at the time but....
You get anything ?
Oops started with the wrong picture
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Last edited by weatherby; 07-03-2020 at 08:19 AM.
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07-03-2020, 09:19 AM
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Damascus barrels were made by coiling steel/iron around a steel rod and then hammer forging the conglomerate together. This produces a barrel with a spiral internal flaw path that extends the entire length of the barrel. Add to that the fact that the quality of the weld is dependent on the skill of the welder and you have a method of manufacture that was/is prone to producing barrels that can split when used with smokeless powder. I would advise that even if your barrels are Nitro Proofed that you ONLY use genuine Black Powder to load your cartridges.
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07-03-2020, 09:58 AM
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I definitely plan to use only BP
Thanks.
I've been doing some Q tipping and oiling and was definitely impressed by his wood to metal fitment.
I also took another picture of the wood for Oldster.
And the bore and a better one of the markings
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Last edited by weatherby; 07-03-2020 at 10:35 AM.
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07-03-2020, 11:28 AM
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That is a definitely a Black Powder only proof, the rifling is definitely Medford! You will be surprised how few loads there are per pound of powder!
Ivan
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07-03-2020, 01:56 PM
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Do a chamber cast. The pre-1910 chambers varied a bit.
Good luck. My Chapuis is down at William Larkin Moore waiting for money.
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07-03-2020, 03:34 PM
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Very nice rifle.
I'd guess a .500 x 3" or perhaps a .500 x 3 1/4"
Either in BPE forms using a PaperPatched bullet and the lighter bullet weight (350gr ?) to get the higher vel.
I think the rifling is Henry Style. At least it looks like the original style Henry and not the flat bottom 'Henry Rifling" often cut and passed off as such.
Metford I think of as just an even rollercoaster up and down to the lands and grooves. All of even width.
I guess it doesn't make much difference. It sure is a nice clean bore for the age of the gun. Wish my elderly D/Rifle looked as good.
The '38' is a standard gauge bore size for 50cal. It doesn't tell you anything about the chambering of the firearm though.
Damascus is Damascus. You either trust it or you don't.
Plenty of older guns are shot with both BP nd smokeless loads.
Once in a while one will come apart.
Once in a while a modern gun will come apart too.
There are no guarantees for anything out there.
I have a John Rigby 500 x 3" made in 1867 (or '76?)
Damascus bbls of course. I still shoot it on occasion. My choice as well as to shoot other damascus and twist steel guns.
Some with only BP loads. Others with smokeless reloads I make up.
Maybe I'll be rewarded with a cartoon like birdcage cluster barrel burst wrapped around my hard Dutch head. But it's my choice.
So far so good.
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07-03-2020, 05:14 PM
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Interesting John for sure.
It looks like Henry to me also comparing the two.
I was looking at the front sight set up on this and looked like one on an Alexander Henry rifle ?
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07-03-2020, 06:15 PM
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Double Rifles have always been a subject of interest to me, but unfortunately they're completely unobtainable due to either legal restrictions (bullet diameter exceeding .50cal) or otherwise the cost. (I couldn't afford the ammunition, much less the guns to shoot it out of.)
Just as well, I'm not a big game hunter, have no aspirations of ever becoming a big game hunter, and as much of a recoil junky as I've discovered myself to be, I'm no masochist. So even if I were to strike it rich and could afford a Double Rifle plus ammunition, I doubt that I would be taking it out shooting.
Fortunately, I could always buy a 12 Gauge side-by-side and shoot slugs out of it as a sort of poor-man's Double Rifle, should I ever so choose.
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07-03-2020, 07:03 PM
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I won't argue your logic.
I certainly never expected to own one.
If this wasn't severely discounted I still wouldn't. It left room for some ammo.
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07-07-2020, 04:05 PM
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I ordered brass yesterday.
Received the provinence today.
May not be shooting it after all.
I have checked the ledger and the rifle was made for the Duke of Leeds around 1878.
I'm afraid there is no other information on the gun other than the above.
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07-07-2020, 05:22 PM
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I just ran up on this thread Paul. You have a real honey of a gun store. Color me jealous. Beautiful wood (I can picture you drooling in the gun store trying to look calm) and a neat history. Congrats on a sweet find buddy.
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07-07-2020, 05:45 PM
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No I'm an idiot the gun was there for over a month.
I didnt even have the rifle sights jump out at me.
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07-07-2020, 08:00 PM
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Col.Patterson and WDM Bell brought to mind
along w Capstick I loved to read about.
Just a terrific piece of history on that Rifle.
Wishing/hoping your ammo development goes well.
Your LGS seems to turn up some very interesting pcs. Wish one here would stay open long enough to visit these days.
Please keep the info coming on this rifle.
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07-07-2020, 08:44 PM
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Hey my friend I hear the rifle call to someone else. There will be no load development from me. The longing wI'll remain.
No Jim Corbett?
He used 500 BPE on the most famous.
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07-07-2020, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherby
. There will be no load development from me.
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BUT>>BUT>>BUT, what are we suppose to do? How can we live vicariously if you won't develop the ultimate Bear/Lion/Sasquatch load? Your forum brothers really neeeeed this!
Ivan
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07-07-2020, 08:58 PM
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Well Ivan the person I've chosen to gift the brass to will fill the void.
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