I also think that removing the extractor on a P320 is a real cinch. Push in the plunger, slide out the retention plate and take out the spring and two part extractor. Still, if one isn't comfortable doing these things, it is better to have a Sig armorer do them.

Well hell. I just upped my going-to-Denver-or-Aurorastan gun to my .357 Sig P320. Since I carry everything in the waistband oriented toward the twig & berries I may swap back to the mighty Colt .32 Pocket Hammerless. At least it will only go off by itself if I drop it.

I hope they sort this out.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Excuse me for maybe pointing out my lack of knowledge but was your Sig p320 sent in for the upgrade? Or voluntary recall?
My p320 had a narrow blade trigger installed from the factory recall.


Papa

Gotta take care of Big Jim and the twins!!!

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Forum consigliere

Yep. The picture is from before I sent it in.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Yeah, I guess I'll stand by to stand by. Swapped over to my Legion P229 in .357, and if I need thinner I have my P239 in the same caliber. The P320 is unloaded and in the safe until they sort this out. Sad because I LOVE the P320.

The plot thickens with another P320 AD yesterday in Milwaukee.
MPD gun manufacturer linked to lawsuits over unintended shootings

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America First

Well, it must be true, it was on the news on a local tv station. 8^) So much these days are settled by public opinion before all the facts are in.

Whether or not it should, this story interests me. I reached out yesterday to a cop I know, large state agency, p320 is their issue weapon. I ask him if he's seen this latest flap over the the 320. He says he has not. So I run it down to him a little, the lawsuit, the latest AD in the news.

First thing he says?

We had one go off in the holster too!

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America First

I have a P320 that underwent the voluntary recall but still i dont think i would carry it with a round in the chamber. I wish I had the M17 with the army mandated manual safety. With the manual safety engaged, then I would feel comfortable with a round in the chamber. Not as safe as with my beretta 92fs with a round in the chamber and the hammer lowered on a chambered round with the safety on. Now that is safe!

Just saw a couple of updates on this model. One is that I found out that another Sgt. friend flatly prohibits them at his agency (and that's among his duties and authority) based on the same kinds of reports I referred to earlier in this string. I also saw that there have been two recent documented in holster discharges that were NOT NDs, but ADs. One was in a clearly secured holster during a fight with a resistant suspect (who could not have gotten to the trigger) (Milwaukee PD, IIRC); another was a fed with an also secured holster. I know of the sources of these reports; they are credible (no, I do not belong to ARFcom).

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NHI, 10-8.

What federal agency is issuing Sig P 320s for duty sidearms?

No idea. It could have been an off-duty gun, or a personally owned department authorized pistol. There are well over 100 federal law enforcement agencies. Before someone has a screaming cow about that, federal agencies are not like local agencies - they are generally specialized entities with relatively limited fields of endeavor. The federal government does not have agencies that are general authority and about the only ones you will see that look and act like real cops are folks like rangers in the big national parks. Most feds are criminal investigators, the 1811 job classification. They are not radio slaves who go to every unfortunate call that there is.

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NHI, 10-8.

If the federal agency can't be stated, I'd have to question if the "documented" Sig P320 AD case is valid. Only a few National Park Rangers are armed. The vast majority aren't. Actually, I think your take on federal officers compared to "real cops" is flawed. I know of no federal agency, outside of the military, that issues Sig P 320 pistols.

ICE issues the P320.

Thanks for the information. It looks like Air Marshals, Secret Service and DHS carries the Sig P320, as well. I saw where the Border Patrol is transitioning to the Glock.

I "love it" when company's call it a "campaign"

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Still Running Against the Wind

The Air Marshals issue the Sig 229 in .357 Sig for now. Soon to change to the Glock 19. I think the USSS still have 229 .357s, too.

I know DHS put in an order for a slew of 320s. I wouldn’t be surprised if they held off on issuing them.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I believe USSS will be going to the Glock 19, too, if they haven't started issuing them already.

The agency was not identified. The fed was just referred to as a fed. As for my take, that's my experience. "Criminal Investigators" under job classification 1811 are not like uniformed radio slaves. Rangers: I meant LE rangers, not the uniformed tour guides. They are different classifications. The LE rangers are 1805s as far as I know.

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NHI, 10-8.

Just to clear up a point, how many for certain, factory modified or new 320's that included the modification, have actually discharged without some operator help.

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Mighty 90's,Trying 4 a 100!

Looks like we'll possibly know the answer, if and when, lawsuits are settled.

I still don't get your point about "real cops". Are you unhappy that you are in a uniformed position within a police department or do you think that officers in soft clothes have it too easy? What does any of it have to do with Sig P 320 pistols and incidents supposedly involving them discharging in holsters without being handled?

Neither. A fed "Criminal Investigator" and a local officer have very different duties, a fact not known to most people outside the system. Local cops, more or less, have to deal with everything that comes their way, at least initially. I would not care to be a fed; I liked being a uniformed cop when I did that. Among other things, I rarely had to put up with working dayshift, which is for me the utter armpit of policing. I never voluntarily worked a dayshift.

Feds have very limited authority and duties. I've seen cases with for example, drugs and guns, which are sometimes taken by DEA, some times by ATF, based on criteria internal to the agencies. EPA criminal investigators are very specialized, etc. Federal Criminal Investigators are limited to specific areas, and will not even response to things outside that (topic) area. There are no federal agencies that have the general authority to respond to anything. They tend to have very detailed knowledge about what they do ... but not stuff outside that.

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NHI, 10-8.

Myself, having some intimate knowledge on the subject, agree and I think it is a good thing that we don't have a federal police force. Probably the closest thing we have to it is the U.S. Marshals. We'll just have to see how the facts regarding the Sig P320 allegations shake out.

Yup. Some folks have a cow about so many federal LE agencies, but the reality is that this is a pro-liberty reality. I have a friend at ATF who has been a great resource for various things like the impact of certain court orders that I am assessing for my client agency. She is assigned to a task force in which her limited authority is a problem and it frustrates her. I am helping her think about and spec personal rifle consistent with her needs and capabilities, including that she is very tiny.

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NHI, 10-8.

Another LEO sues SIG for an incident on a post-recall weapon.


Tampa police officer sues Sig Sauer alleging weapon fired by itself, causing serious injuries

Although I haven't read every single line of every post concerning the alleged spontaneous discharge of a P320 while still in a holster, I've read enough to have a few questions that I haven't seen addressed.

1. What was the experience level of the officers involved with a striker-fired handgun? Historical note: I was originally trained on DA revolvers and later transitioned to DA pistols, both in the military and civilian sectors. I did shoot competition with SA pistols, but never carried them as duty weapons. One drill that was practiced (fortunately not too often) was the "speed rock" or speed draw. In this drill, where you are engaging a target at very close range with a holstered weapon, you were trained to apply trigger pressure as soon as the muzzle cleared the holster, so that when the muzzle was on target (horizontal or nearly so), the weapon would fire. So if an officer has been trained on a traditional DA auto, and has recently transitioned to a striker-fired auto, there may be an issue with un-learning habits appropriate for the previous weapon, but certainly inappropriate for the new weapon. The Deputy from Virginia is an eight year veteran of the department. What weapon was she trained on in the academy, what weapon did she carry before the P320, what type of holster is she accustomed to carrying? All of these questions are pertinent.

2. There is a mention of holsters in the court proceedings of Virginia deputy. I had one of the poly multi-fit SIG holsters (I believe they're made by Fobus for SIG) and my P320 did not fit well in it. As it was only a $10 holster (on sale from CDNN), I threw it out. In this case, and others (such as the Canadian case where a P320 discharged when it was placed in a SIG P226 holster), I'd question what holster was being used, and especially if the holster was made for the P320 and was the right size, i.e., was a full size P320 being placed/carried in a carry/compact size holster. Another question would be if there is an internal retention device on the holster that engages the trigger guard, i.e. Serpa-style. Could this internal locking device apply pressure to the trigger in such a manner that minor jostling of the holster would allow the striker to move forward and hit the cartridge primer, firing the chambered round? Back to history, I remember product warnings about trigger shoes on DA revolvers, and even 1911 autos, that could hang up on the edge of a holster as the weapon was being holstered, causing the weapon to fire inadvertently.

In my over 50 years of experience with firearms, I've never seen one fire all by itself.

I find it interesting that of all the 320 owners, only 20% have taken Sig up on the voluntary recall. 80% trust the gun or don't know about the issue?

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S&W BG380, S&W 915 9mm

Most people are just lazy and can't be bothered.

Hey, I'm in the minority. I was going to give a pass, but I wanted a flat trigger. When I called to get the (free) re-work done I mentioned I wanted the trigger (and would pay for it). Gun went free, got the treatment, and I got a flat trigger.

I never had a real concern about "spontaneous" discharge, but as long as Sig was picking up the tab, why not.

That has never happened with my P226s.
Think I'll stay with tried and true.

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V/r,
Markham

Judge sides with SIG Sauer in accidental shooting lawsuit | Fox Business

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America First

Not much of a big picture win for Sig. The plaintiff claimed his gun discharged in his holster, and that he bought it because a 2016 advertisement from Sig said it would “only go off when you want it to”. Sig said in 2016 they didn’t know their gun would go around shooting its owners willy-nilly. The judge agreed.

Sig didn’t argue it didn’t happen, just that he didn’t prove they knew it could happen at the time.

That ad is gone now.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

First off, I like Sig and I do own a SIG P365 (not the model in question, but I do like the brand). So a few comments and questions here if I may.

Why the P320 in particular? Isn't the design and basic build pretty much the same as other Sig's? What is unique to this model?

Percentage wise, how many AD's occurred as compared to other brands and similar models? We do know it is a very popular model.

Just because a particular individual is a Police Officer, law enforcement agent or someone supposedly familiar with firearms, does not mean they did not do something in error. Not saying they did, but I have seen many so called "experts" do stupid things! No one is immune!

I know for a fact that today's training and firearms maintenance by certain Gov't agency's is in my opinion lacking and minimized. Training, paid on the job range time is limited as is ammunition for such purpose. Again, not defending the P320 as I don't own one and have no personal experience with one, but with many people carrying this model, accidents are going to be higher in numbers. We need to look at percentages - not just raw numbers!

What exactly was the Sig voluntary recall all about? What was done when the gun was returned to Sig? Maybe there really is an issue with the P320 - after all, it is a mechanical devise and design and construction flaws are nothing new! Or.... is this just about money and bringing Sig down? I guess we will find out!

Just some thoughts here - reminds me of what brought Remington down.

Its not like other SIG’s. Its basically a modular Glock. It evolved from the P250 which is a hammer fired gun.

Both ate drastically different from any other Sig offering.

Sounds like the suit was for the wrong thing. They should have sued for a dangerous/defective gun, not that the company lied. Maybe they thought they could prove the company lied easier than the gun was defective.

Rosewood

...and that's the elephant in the room. If guns are going off all on their own or that's total nonsense, the way Sig chose to handle these issues is what's causing so much drama.

In the original fiasco when the guns were found to be not-so drop safe, Sig chose to gaslight and issued a "free upgrade" instead of coming clean about it and doing a proper recall.

So whether the goes-off-in-holster problem is real or not, do I trust Sig to be upfront about it? No, empirically they obfuscate so I have to believe they're doing so now. If I were the purchase decision maker at a police department, that alone would prevent me from buying the P320.

All companies large and small have product issues, it's how they handle them that demonstrates their integrity. Right now Sig, in my view, has no integrity.

If so, you would have to add Glock and Remington to your list and probably others.

I have an M17. Will I be protected from this problem if I always engage the safety prior to holstering the pistol? Does the safety hold the striker back or does it just disable the trigger?

If the guns fired while in the holsters, maybe it's time \someone should examine the holsters.

[QUOTE=CAJUNLAWYER;140831599]Well bless your heart.

Ouch! One of my in-laws is a southern gentleman, Alabama born and raised. Those of us born and raised in Jersey probably would have phrased it differently!

[quote=K Frame Keith;141624921]How To Respond To "Bless Your Heart"

I was rather concerned about reading all this disturbing news until I realized that the pistol under discussion was striker-fired, anyway.

Guess I need to mind my own business.

Sincerely,
Elmer Fudd

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Formerly Model520Fan

[quote=ladder13;141624933]Precisely.

Not to hijack this thread but this describes the goodbye kiss I got after 40+ years of LE service, a “false arrest” lawsuit in which I never even laid eyes on the plaintiff, let alone arrested her. The case was filed after I retired by the biggest shyster lawyer in town. Of course I gave the deposition on my own time (w/o compensation, because I place a high value on my reputation) and it was ultimately dismissed. I know a few like this but the vast majority of defense attorneys wouldn’t have taken the case. My guess is the shyster thought I’d ignore the subpoena.

As far at this voluntary recall, SIG should take a lesson from Ruger, who (AFAIK) has never even placed a time limit on any their recalls.

I hate to POUR cold water on all this...especially all the lawyers looking to make a strike, BUT:
EVEN IF the sear were to be "bumped" out of engagement, without the trigger being pulled and HELD to the rear. the striker block would not allow the striker to move forward - at all. SIG knows this. Everyone who understands how gun parts work knows this.

I see a LOT of "just holstered before the gun fired" comments and that makes sense when you consider how many Kydex and even leather holsters have a recessed area over the trigger.

The SIG P320 has a WIDE trigger that stretches almost to each side of the trigger guard. When holster, the depressed section of a holster can EASILY sweep the trigger back - removing all "take-up" and placing the trigger in a "let-off" situation. A bump, joggle, or jounce can cause the gun to move enough so the trigger is fully pulled to the rear BY THE HOLSTER to cause the gun to fire.
The solution isn't to sue SIG, it's to sue all the holstermakers who send out holsters with the trigger area "dished in" that apply pressure to the trigger!
Of course nobody wants to admit this might be the issue becaus there's no MONEY in it, and all the die-hard SIG fan-girls are more about what they THINK will be an easy $$$ strike over the gun!

This video contains information relevant to the P320 suit. Is it factual - I don’t know since I’m not an Engineer nor am I an expert on guns, unlike so many others. If you don’t want to watch the entire video, start at about 7 minute mark and watch for at least 3 minutes.

p320 video - Yahoo Video Search Results

I owned three of the earliest versions and now have an Xcarry and to my surprise they have never fired without me pulling the trigger. I for one dont believe these guns are firing on there own

My BIL is a very successful personal injury attorney with his own practice. He employs 20-30 people and is a pillar in his community. He sponsors many civic activities and donates his time and money. A more generous person would be hard to find. So I know at least one attorney pretty well.

Having said that, I love attorney jokes.

What's the difference between a dead attorney and a dead skunk, both in the middle of the road?

The skunk has skid marks near it.

I don't own a striker pistol so I'll reserve comment on how safe they are.

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That's just somebody talkin.