Greetings!

This post is prompted after viewing a lengthy YouTube post on "Guns and Gadgets".

Apparently there is a major lawsuit filed against Sig Sauer this month due to spontaneous discharges of holstered P320 pistols. It seems that the attorneys behind this suit have done their homework, and cited numerous spontaneous discharges spanning 2018 into 2020.

Has anyone here read anything about these discharges? Based on what I've read here, it seems that a number of forum members own a Sig P320. Are these discharges limited to just the curved trigger P320s, or is the entire P320 family plagued by this problem?

As always, thanks in advance for your help!

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Judge control not gun control!

SIG has stated that they have remedied the situation, and if anyone were to have a recalled firearm, to immediately send it in to fix the situation right away.
But, as you know, there are procrastinators everywhere, and some haven't complied with the recall notice(s).
Unfortunately, there are ambulance chasers out there in the lawyer community who are looking to make a huge payday for thwmselves with these frivolous lawsuits.
Here's a joke for you:

What's the difference between a mosquito and a lawyer?

One's a bloodsucking parasite, and the other one is an insect!

Hawk

Sent from my motorola one using Tapatalk

I have an XCarry and a M17 I shot today. No issues whatsoever. I just put a Wilson Combat grip module on the Xcarry. A nice addition.

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SWCA 3255 SWHF 615

I can respect the reality that there are ambulance chasers in the world, however it seems that they have documented numerous spontaneous discharges from post-recall manufactured P320s!

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Judge control not gun control!

Are you certain this is current info?

I’m a bit suspicious of people litigating an issue like this on Youtube, but at the same time there is absolutely NO mention to be found anywhere in either reality-based media or the gun forum- and blogosphere, which is usually all over this stuff if it’s real.

All articles and discussions I can find refer to the issue already litigated and addressed by Sig’s recall and settlements.

Do you have any links?

I don’t know if it’s true or not and I’d usually be on the other side of this, but if it IS true, I wouldn’t call that a frivolous law suit. That would be a serious defect.

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“Look life in its iron face”

Articles supporting contention of another round of lawsuits:

NH man's lawsuit claims SIG Sauer pistol fired without trigger pull | Courts | unionleader.com

Lawsuit: Sig Sauer pistol fired without trigger pull | Local News | sentinelsource.com

https://www.seacoastonline.com/news/...t-trigger-pull

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Judge control not gun control!

When you say "holstered P320s" do you mean while the P320 was being holstered or were they already holstered? I have a P320 that I sent back to sig because of the drop recall and I have not had any problems with it since it was returned. Of course, I did not have any problems with it before I sent it back to Sig either. If an accidental discharge occurred while holstering, this is a known problem with all striker fired pistols (which is why I only have one striker fired pistol, the one P320). If something gets wedged in the trigger guard, the pistol will go "bang". This could even be a part of the holster itself that is putting pressure on the trigger. I have not heard about any accidental discharges with a pistol that was already holstered and then it went "bang". I would be very interested in reading about these instances if there are any referenced articles or videos. Thank You.

Based on the linked articles, it appears the guns in question fired while already holstered.

Based on what I have read and watched on yesterday's " Guns and Gadgets", these were discharges while the pistol was holstered. Many of these discharges occurred while there was some movement of the holster with the pistol IN THE HOLSTER! Apparently, there is supporting video of these pistols discharging while holstered.

The video from yesterday is worth watching!

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Judge control not gun control!

Interesting. I was not aware of these incidents. If vibrations or movement caused the guns to discharge, they would have to not only release the striker, but also release the striker safety. If so, that is a serious design defect, even if it happens rarely.

FWIW, I don't really follow the 320 as it's not a pistol I have any interest in. Part of that reason is that it's basically a cocked-and-unlocked SA gun. IIRC, the striker is something like 98-99% cocked. Glocks and Kahrs, as far as I know, are only partially-cocked. And as far as I know, neither the Glock nor the Kahr has had issues like this. Well, M&Ps and XD's are also essentially SA striker-fired guns, but I haven't heard of any issues like this with them, either.

The problems with this model were well known and heavily discussed almost as soon as they came out. I saw a long discussion of a variety of problems (not reliable, not drop safe, and the discharging in holsters seems familiar but I did not read enough of the old posts to check for that). A friend was at the time a firearms training head at his agency in NC, and he had a couple very negative reports from peers - so bad that the first shipment of pistols were packed up and sent back at the end of the first day, and another brand ordered the next day. There are also very serious questions about the military testing process and whether or not it was manipulated to let Sig pass. The Sig did not pass the FBI process that resulted in the Gen 5 Glocks (which IIRC also had a problem when real cops got them. I think it was Indy PD), because the Sigs were not able to pass the portion of the test related to longevity.

I have had iffy QC with Sig, (a special order on which they screwed up so badly they must have hired a choreographer to do it, and which was so obvious the dealer sent it back on his own and then told me). I own a used 239, and it has been fine in limited use, but I would not buy a new Sig. Period.

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NHI, 10-8.

I watched the youtube presentation also. It was long on examples but short on facts. Does vibration such as a violin set off the gun, like in a Miss Marple mystery? Cops are notoriously hard on equipment and the majority are not firearms proficient. I have had my differences with SIG, ironically with a 320 that went back for the "upgrade". I'm going to sit back and make some popcorn and see where this goes.

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Made it, Ma! Top of the world!

The first few of those I fondled in the LGS really shocked me with how light the trigger was. No way would I allow something like that to be a LEO duty-gun, if I had any sway in the matter. Then, the discharges when dropped. Since it had no trigger-safety dingus ala Glock, the trigger's OWN weight could move it under inertia to fire. As to what may be going on NOW, I don't know.

It will be interesting to see where this goes. This is the first that I have heard of this issue. I know many P320 owners and they haven't had any issues.

The lawyer involved has sued SIG before. My first thought in cases like this, is it's an anti-gun harassment law suit. But, it may be legit in this case.

Well bless your heart.
My experience over the years is that a frivolous law suit is one where the defendant gets tagged for a huge sum of money after a jury trial where they are judged by a jury of the unwashed selected with equal input from both sides. . Whereas from my perspective, a frivolous lawsuit is one that is total BS and that either I can't win or doesn't make economic sense to try. A good example would be the usual facebook defamation claims I get asked to prosecute every so often, I have to politely turn those down. Another example of a frivolous claim is one brought by an attorney and HE LOOSES but you don't heat the insurance companies trumpeting THOSE as frivolous suits now do you? Those are victories chortled over by the adjuster and his attorneys during the victory luncheons at Ruth's Chris they are billing to the client You like so many people have brought into that Frivolous lawsuit pablum fed so vociferously to the public by well funded insurance interests. If these SIG pistols are found to discharge while holstered, I hope that bust SIG big time for making an unsafe product. Period.
This from a blood sucking ambulance chasing bottom feeder attorney.
Have a nice day.

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Forum consigliere

Don’t take it personally. People hate lawyers until they feel wronged themselves. Then they expect you to sue everybody going back to Abraham and Moses and win millions in damages

Once again a small percentage can make the rest look bad.
Bad gun owners
Bad hunters
Bad cops
Bad attorneys

Wife loves lawyer jokes (NOT)

How many lawyers does it take to shingle a roof?

6





If you slice them thin

Well, I guess I've just been lucky. Before I retired, I worked with lawyers in about 35 states (all in private practice). Great men and women to work with - they did a good job for me and my employer, and I thought their billings were reasonable. As an occupation, they were the sharpest people I have worked with or known.

One lawyer in a small town will starve. Two lawyers in that same town and they'll get rich. A Lincoln

I'm confused. Are these allegations about the Sig P 320 pistols that have the older trigger assembly without the voluntary upgrade or newer pistols not subject to the voluntary upgrade? I'm not saying that this is the case, but even someone with "extensive firearms experience" can make mistakes and we all have a tendency to go into defensive mode and refuse to believe we are capable of causing an accident. I'll just have to see how this all shakes out.

Here is a link to the petition in the suit. The events in question are much more current than I first thought when I began reading the thread. This happened this year. Lot of historical information on the P320 in this document. https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.town...63c886.pdf.pdf

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America First

I didn't read the whole thing but it did say the pistol was purchased in 2016 - was that before the recall?

Yes, that was August 2017, but it was not a formal recall, only a “voluntary upgrade”.

The plaintiff’s pistol did not receive that upgrade, as stated on pg. 2/3, under #7:

“Despite clear evidence of serious safety issues with the P320, as demonstrated by the Voluntary Upgrade Program and warranty modifications, SIG nevertheless continued to affirm the safety of the P320 as originally designed. This is the version that fired on, and hit, Guay without a trigger pull on January 20, 2020 simply when he moved the holster it was in.”

If I'm reading this right, the gun in question was purchased before Sig offered the voluntary upgrade and the owner did not upgrade his particular gun. The gun owner says that only about 20% of P320 owners upgraded their guns because it was voluntary and not a mandatory recall.

The gun owner got shot and alleges that the weapon fired inside a holster without him having touched the trigger, in the process sustaining some serious injuries.

The gun owner goes on to argue that SIG had a duty to make his gun safe whether or not he participated in the upgrade.

The gun owner says that Sig continued to make false public claims that the P320 was safe both before and after the upgrade, putting him and the rest of the world at risk.

Along the way citing a number of accidental discharges of both upgraded and non-upgraded P320s.

At least that is what I got out of it.

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America First

What's the worse part about three lawyers going over a 1000' cliff in a Cadillac?

The Cadillac comfortably seats six...

Seriously though, I have a P320 that was returned and fixed, but from reading down to this point I think it's OK... right?

It's my primary EDC, and I hate to take it out.

That's your call. If it were my gun, I would have a new EDC.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

From reading down to this point I don't think it's OK at all.

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America First

I have two P320s (“M17” versions), both of which were manufactured after the voluntary recall thing. I always try to take note of things other shooters say about firearms I am interested in, but unless I see the evidence myself the reports are not stored in the “firsthand-knowledge database.”

Based on what I know, I am not concerned about MY P320s. I feel like I can depend on them, unless they do something that indicates otherwise. So far, nothing like that observed.

Here's how that works for me.

Fred: "I'm suing BigAutoCompany (BAC) for that wreck that killed my wife"
Joe: "Wow! Was that when the wheel came off and she plunged oof the cliff."
Fred: "Yep, BAC knew that model had bad hubs".
Joe: "Errm, I got a recall for mine and took it in for the updated hubs. Didn't you get the recall notice?"
Fred, now shuffling his feet and avoiding eye contact: "Um yeah, sure."
Joe: "So why didn't you take it in and get it fixed."
Fred, bristling: "Well, you know how it is with BAC dealers, they're all thieves!"
Joe: "But the recall work was free!!"
Fred: "I gotta go."

All I could say on the jury for that would be "RIP Mrs Fred, otherwise nothing to see here."

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Release the Kraken

Except that SIG never recalled the pistol. They offered a "voluntary upgrade" which is WAYYYYYYYYYY different from an urgent safety recall-do not fire or carry this gun until returned to the factory recall. SIG scrupulously avoiding using the word "recall" and specifically stated that it would make the pistol "even more safe" without indicating in any way that there were instances of the gun going off without the trigger being touched. If this is in fact provable, this ranks up with the Pinto exploding gas tank fiasco.
LVSteve in the scenario you posted, I completely agree with your analysis and conclusion, but a careful reading of the allegations contained within the petition indicates, if proven, a lot more at work here-close to an actual cover up. If that is the case I hope SIG gets torn a new one, not for the mistake but for the coverup

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Forum consigliere

The original issue was a drop test problem. If it landed a certain way on the rear of the slide it would supposedly fire. Random discharge in the holster is different.

I wonder what holster was used? That could also be part of the issue.

Based on the linked articles above, Sig has acknowledged that the P320 can fire without pulling the trigger "under certain conditions, including vibration." So, being dropped is not the only way for the guns to fire without pulling the trigger.

LVSteve, I'm on your side as far as the scenario you described goes. But I don't think it really fits this situation. If the gun owner here had ignored a true safety recall then got injured, that's pretty much on him.

But what the lawsuit alleges is that Sig did not do a recall at all but cheaped out and did a voluntary upgrade all the while telling customers that the gun is safe and the upgrade was just to make their already great product a little better.

This suit really brings back into question all the original concerns about the safety of the P320 and raises some serious questions about the conduct of the company in the representations they made to consumers.

My earlier too longish post was just me saying what I took from reading the petition. Whether I interpreted it right I dunno.

I don't have a dog in the fight, I don't have a P320. And at the moment I'm glad.

Nonetheless, I think it is an interesting story that I'll be watching to see played out.

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America First

I've got a dog in this fight - picked it up last month. Still no chance to even load it (with live ammo) let along go the range due to covid restrictions. I have played around with it several times, using dummy rounds, and I can't get it to drop the striker, let alone 'spontaneously' discharge (on a dummy round). Don't get me started on the proper use of the term 'spontaneous'!

I can't help but to think - with no proof or evidence - that there are forces at work in the background, here, that would love to see SIG put out of business. That would leave only two major US manufacturers, S&W and Ruger. Old Joe, I'm sure would love to see that. Wouldn't it be nice if a large US firearms company was bankrupted? I'm kidding, of course.

Back on topic, I'm very happy with mine and have no intention of getting rid of it. One of the videos showed the work SIG has done at preventing accidental discharges, although that work should have been done much earlier. I like it enough that I've ordered a compact module and a coupla 15-rd mags to use with that module.

I have seen a lot of frivolous lawsuits. Most of the ones against cops are of that type. I deal with low quality lawyers on a regular basis and it makes me angry. How is this for scary: I'm a prosecutor, and like many of my friends, just horrified at some of the low quality work (malpractice) I have seen from DEFENSE attorneys.

Based on long posts in settings comprised of very serious users of firearms - I'm not inclined to think this is frivolous. I am inclined to think SIG needs a serious schooling.

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NHI, 10-8.

SIG (the USA company, not the old Swiss-German gun maker) has had lawsuits over guns for a while now. Going on memory: The NJSP back in 2016 or thereabouts had constant failures with their P229 elites. It turned out that SIG had sent them the wrong model after NJSP approved the P229 Legacy, not the Elite. SIG did a bait and switch on them. SIG then sent the correct models, and something like 20 percent of them had to be sent back for being complete lemons. NJSP eventually sued SIG for the cost of the defective guns and the holsters. They went GLOCK.

One of the the Nordic countries sued SIG some years ago, for a similar situation as the NJSP. Basically, defective guns that SIG could not improve on.

The last P220's I owned (brand new) would occasionally fail to eject on factory 230 gr. fmj. Couldn't be trusted for defensive carry.

The US .gov had problems with the new P320 firing upon being dropped and ejecting live rounds shortly after being accepted by the US military to replace the M9.

Now it appears that the P320's will spontaneously fire while sitting in your holster due to vibrations.

SIG still claims in one of those linked stories that 'the guns are still safe even though they may fire due to vibrations'.

We also know that SIG'S CEO had a warrant for his arrest in Germany for breaking arms sales laws in Germany.


That company is being run by immoral people and should be bought out by a real gun maker.

Sig has been kicked around ever since they got the gov't contract. I hear all kinds of negatives from Glock fanboys. Glocks have had their problems over the years, but most have never made the rounds like Sig. I still see old rumors spouted off by those who have never owned or even fired a Sig striker fired pistol. I think it is pretty easy for an attorney to lead a jury around by the nose when the case involves something as technical as a firearm, especially when the complainant has had an injury. Anyone who owned a Sig P320 and never took advantage of the free upgrade...well that is on them. I suppose this claim of spontaneous firing, is possible and I'll see how it washes out. In the mean time, I'll continue to carry probably the most popular striker fired pistol currently on the market, my Sig P365. I even carry it while driving rough dirt roads in my pickup...Oh my!!!!! In the late 1800's anybody who carried 6 rounds in their Colt Peacemaker and took a round because of it was considered pretty stupid. Too bad they didn't have all these attorneys to sue Colt. Oh, yeah, back then the jury would have probably laughed at the attorney and the complainant.

Back in October of last year a friend of mine was shooting his 320 X5 during a ISSA match. He had just finished the 2nd round in the third stage and his hands were in the low surrender position when his pistol discharged while holstered. The round hit a knife in his pocket and deflected enough that it did not strike him. Tore his pants pocket and ruined the knife but no other injuries to himself or anybody else. I was right behind him when it happened along with another friend who was scoring and we both saw the incident so this isn't a second hand report.
When he called Sig, they wanted it back immediately and he sent it back. He found out that there have been more than a few cases of a discharge with the 320 series when they were holstered and the pistol wasn't being handled. His pistol was only a few months old, new enough that it was made after the recall for the supposed drop problem. The pistol was completely stock with no upgrades and he had about 1K through it at the time.
Sig offered to send him a new 320 X5 but he opted out and had them send him a 220 instead. He told me he just wasn't confident with the pistol after he found out about some of the other instances of unintentional discharges associated with the 320 series.
I don't think this is about trying to "get Sig", it's a real problem. I own several Sigs and have for many years and have always been impressed with their reliability and accuracy. After witnessing what happened that day with his 320 X5, I'd be hesitant to purchase or carry one of the 320 series.

I bought the M17 over a year ago at Bass Pro because I like to have a copy of the US military firearm. The gun has a thumb safety as required by the Army. I wonder if the thumb safety controls the AD problem.

I had a goofy experience with SIG concerning the removable plate on the slide that enables red dot sights to be mounted. I disassembled the gun preparatory to remove the plate. The screws(2) which secure the plate are only accessed from the underside of the slide. One screw is blocked by the extractor. I found no mention of this in the manual and emailed SIG. They agreed with me and said only a qualified gunsmith could do it for me. They also flatly refused to name even one gunsmith qualified. I sent it to Grayguns and paid them $50. to do it for me. I like the gun but will never buy another SIG.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

Do you know if the pistol was stock or had it been modified?

Interesting. I have both a M17 and Sig P320X Compact. I mounted a Sig Romeo Pro red dot on the Compact and found it to be very easy. Since you didn't feel comfortable mounting your optic, you did the right thing.

My problem was the screw head was covered by the extractor. I had zero experience removing M17 extractors.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

He said in the post that the gun was stock.

I bought a Sig Factory Reworked P320 Compact when CDNN was selling them. Sig has a place on the computer to check if your gun has been modified by typing in the SN. I did that soon after I got the gun and it was modified.

After seeing this post I did a recheck and read a little farther down and found instructions on how to visually check. You can easily see if it is modified with the disconnect notch or if it isn't. The thinner trigger is the first thing to look for.

I have done everything I could think of doing except dropping it(unloaded) on the concrete and I can get nothing to happen. I don't know what the pull weight on the trigger is but it is not light as stated in someones earlier post.
The way things are going a 15 round compact pistol may come in handy. I will keep it.

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Mighty 90's,Trying 4 a 100!

Regardless of what is posted in the petition, its all speculation until the facts are presented in the case. Any conclusion at this point is pure speculation. Even what is posted in a "article" is not fact but biased to one side or the other. Seems like the new Court of Law is the media, YouTube, and public gun forums.

After I left the computer, this post was still bugging me. I remembered that I had an old hand held Oster vibrator, the kind that goes on the back of your hand with the coiled wires over your palm and they do vibrate. I hooked it up, racked the slide on my P320 Compact, put a worn out wash rag between the gun and the wire coils and held the gun in every possible position. I let the vibrator shake it for five minutes and no problem showed up. I pulled the trigger then worked the slide and pulled the trigger again. I could tell no difference in the trigger pull. I really feel that it is OK.
I do not like the no safety so will usually not have one in the chamber. I have been practicing working the slide as I am getting into the shooting position. Works out pretty good, a little slower but I am not fast as I was forty years ago at anything. You still wouldn't want me shooting at you.

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Mighty 90's,Trying 4 a 100!

This reminds me of the lawsuit filed against Taurus some years back, in which shaking the Taurus Millennium PT111 pistol with the trigger held back in the rearward possition after the firearm had already been shot and the safety was engaged would cause the gun to fire.
Many folks have pointed out just how unusual it would be to encounter this issue in the wild, not to mention questioned just how likely such a thing is to result in personal injury, and some folks who owned the PT111 have tried to replicate this issue to no avail, yet it still went to court and it still succeeded.

I'm sure that folks here will also remember when Smith & Wesson had to issue a mass recall on their licensed run of the Walther PPK(/S) which could occasionally discharge if the hammer was decocked with a live round in the chamber. Much like the Taurus Millennium PT111, this was not an issue that applied to all PPK(/S) Models manufactured by S&W, as some folks put their pre-recall PPK(/S) to the test by decocking the hammer with a live round in the chamber without any issue, yet the entire run of S&W PPK(/S) manufactured between 2003 and 2009 were recalled over it.

Unfortunately, in the information era in which all it takes is one video going viral to convince the lowest common denominator that the information presented in the video is truthful, even without any proof to back it up, it's easy for a company or even an individual's reputation to be harmed by it, and they have to take immediate action to address the issue, lest someone get the idea to sue over it. There's no time for the company to investigate or confirm that the issue factually exists, they have to act immediately before Dewy Crowe watches that video gets the bright idea to literally shoot himself in the foot and attempt to sue them for millions of dollars.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Sig Talk has pretty much the exact same thread as this one. No new insight yet. I'd sure like to know what kind of "vibration" it was.

Agree with you regarding what is stated in an article which is why I read the entire petition totally disregarding the screed contained in an article. Agree that you have to put up or shut up in court. But the petition I read was fact pleading at it's best as opposed to mere notice pleading. A knowledge of Rule 11 and the fear it imposes amongst lawyers still leads me to the inescapable conclusion that the lawyer who filed the petition has done his homework and is ready to prove what is contained in the petition over his signature. If that happens SIG is in a world of trouble. Did you read the entire petition???? Wasn't clear from your post.

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Forum consigliere