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  #51  
Old 07-13-2020, 11:58 AM
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Does anyone make a truly double action striker fired pistol??? Does anyone make a truly double action striker fired pistol??? Does anyone make a truly double action striker fired pistol??? Does anyone make a truly double action striker fired pistol??? Does anyone make a truly double action striker fired pistol???  
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It is the same - the fact that the trigger pull is exactly the same for first and second strike is proof.
Like I said, if the striker were partially "pre-cocked" for the first strike the trigger pull for the second strike would be different - and it isn't. The trigger pull cocks and releases the striker exactly the same for first AND second strikes, and we know that for second strike it isn't "pre-cocked" so since the trigger pull is the same for both first and second strike it cannot be "pre-cocked" for first strike either. If it were the trigger pulls would be doing different amounts of work and would feel different. They don't - so therefore they are the same, and therefore the striker is at rest before both first AND second strikes.
Seems odd to quote myself, but necessary to correct myself

I went back and double-checked this and I was mistaken. the first strike and second strike trigger pulls are NOT identical. For first strike (after racking the slide) the trigger takeup is about 3/16" longer compared to the second-strike trigger takeup. That additional 3/16" of movement of the trigger in second-strike mode is very light, so it is barely even noticeable, but it is there, and appears to be doing something. Presumably it is pre-cocking the striker as it moves through that additional 3/16" worth of travel. In first strike mode you can't feel anything as the trigger travels through that additional 3/16" of takeup, so I'm guessing that is because the striker has already been preloaded by racking the slide.

So I guess the Taurus guns don't fit the defined niche after all.
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  #52  
Old 07-13-2020, 12:15 PM
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When I checked out the compact Sigs, the slides looked absolutely massive. Very wide. Not something I'd want in my pocket at all, but YMMV.
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Old 07-13-2020, 12:19 PM
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The original Ruger LC9 is the answer. Hammer fired. DAO. I believe double strike capability. Virtually identical in size and weight to the Sig 365. Manual safety if you want to use it but has a nice positive click if you don’t want to. Magazine disconnect but you can remove that if you don’t want it.

If you’re comfortable with the Bodyguard then you’ll be comfortable with the LC9. Same long double action pull, and you clearly don’t have an issue with a safety since the Bodyguard has one. You can use it or not. I prefer the safety on the LC9 to the Bodyguard. Has a tiny shelf so you can easily access it. I’ve never had the safety come on accidentally.
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  #54  
Old 07-13-2020, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by tenntex32 View Post
I looked at complete caliber (and size) conversion kits for my P250................and ouch.

Would be better off just buying one of the many used complete police P250 trade-ins that seemed to be offered out there...........or a new different brand gun at a comparable price!

Dale
At one point about a year ago CDNN advertized these constantly for under $100. They still turn up on their site occasionally. At the time I had full size 250 in .40 and toyed with the idea of adding a subcompact 9, a compact .45, etc. but never pulled the trigger (shameless pun).
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  #55  
Old 07-13-2020, 02:07 PM
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I believe the French Le Francais pistols in 6.35 and 7.65 mm were true DAO striker fired arms. Perhaps the CZ45 in 6.35mm.
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  #56  
Old 07-13-2020, 02:59 PM
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Caj, this Kahr in .45 ACP is one of the few striker-fired pistols I own - the others being Glocks. It's DA only, so no need for a safety. The downside is, because it's partially cocked when the slide goes forward, that there is no repeat strike capability. Of course that usually doesn't work to resuscitate a bad primer anyway.

At any rate that DA pull is actually very nice, and easy to get used to using so as not to disturb your aim. The gun is quite compact and suitable for discreet carry.

Hope this helps.

John

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  #57  
Old 07-13-2020, 03:06 PM
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At one point about a year ago CDNN advertized these constantly for under $100. They still turn up on their site occasionally. At the time I had full size 250 in .40 and toyed with the idea of adding a subcompact 9, a compact .45, etc. but never pulled the trigger (shameless pun).
You have to be careful as they sell the items in many configurations.

Sometimes just a grip frame. Sometimes just a grip frame and magazine. Sometimes a slide with associated barrel, spring guide. Sometimes with everything needed other than the fire control group.

I have yet to ever see a complete package minus fire control group for anywhere near $100. The complete slide, barrel, spring guide runs about $200. With grip module and magazine we're talking $300-$400 nowadays.

Seems a bit excessive considering your other complete gun options at those prices.

If you get a line on a complete subcompact 9mm kit, minus fire control group, for $100 I'm in! Heck for that price I'm in at any caliber in a subcompact at $100.
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  #58  
Old 07-13-2020, 03:08 PM
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Cage--

Since you are considering the P250, this is mine--a Sub-Compact upper mated with a 10-shot Compact grip. I sawed off the extra length of the grip front and kinda blended it in.

Gives you a higher mag capacity with a short barrel...


Tim
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  #59  
Old 07-13-2020, 05:50 PM
Walter Rego Walter Rego is offline
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Cajunlawyer, how about a Seecamp .32 ACP ? Or do you want a .380 as minimum ? It isn't striker fired but doesn't require the slide to be cycled to partially cock it either. They do make a .380 but I understand that they are quite uncomfortable to shoot.
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  #60  
Old 07-13-2020, 06:02 PM
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I believe you want a Nano, it’s listed as striker fired DAO


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TOO big....
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  #61  
Old 07-13-2020, 06:08 PM
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Well I was going to suggest a Walther CCP, which has a very Kahr-like trigger. But if the Nano is too big, then the CCP would definitely be also.
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  #62  
Old 07-13-2020, 06:09 PM
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looks like the original Ruger LC9 is what fits the bill as far as hammer fired AND small. Good thread guys thank you for all the input
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  #63  
Old 07-13-2020, 07:25 PM
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looks like the original Ruger LC9 is what fits the bill as far as hammer fired AND small. Good thread guys thank you for all the input
I have an LC9 ruger 9mm. i carry it sometimes. Like it. I also like the mag disconnect but some don't. It is both small and hammer fired. Hammer is partially cocked after each round is fired so it does not have restrike after a bad primer. Good choice though because it is very reliable. Never had a bobble with it
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  #64  
Old 07-13-2020, 07:55 PM
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Boy! Sure were a lot of answers to a simple yes or no question.
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Old 07-13-2020, 08:03 PM
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I have an LC9 ruger 9mm. i carry it sometimes. Like it. I also like the mag disconnect but some don't. It is both small and hammer fired. Hammer is partially cocked after each round is fired so it does not have restrike after a bad primer. Good choice though because it is very reliable. Never had a bobble with it
I had the original LC9. I thought it had double strike but I guess it doesn’t. I have the LC9S and like it very much. I also like the mag disconnect. Big reason why I bought it.

Double strike capability is nice but I’ve never needed it, and I shoot pretty exclusively my reloads, even in my Bodyguard .380. Never needed it in that one either. Mags are reasonable for the LC9, too.

Cajun, if you get an LC9, I’m sure you’ll like it. You can find one for probably $200 on the auction sites, and Ruger stands behind their products in case anything ever needs fixing. I toyed with the idea of getting a 365, but the size and weight is virtually identical to the LC9S, and the three extra rounds, which would only add a bit of weight, weren’t enough to disregard the magazine disconnect that I much prefer on a carry gun. I just put Talin grips on it. The rubberized ones. They feel excellent on it. The grips were a bit slick before I added them. If you buy magazines, get the ones made in Italy if you can. The ones made in America had some issues, I have read. The one I have never did but once I bought two Italian ones the American made one doesn’t get used.

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  #66  
Old 07-13-2020, 09:49 PM
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The original Ruger LC9 is the answer. Hammer fired. DAO. I believe double strike capability. Virtually identical in size and weight to the Sig 365. Manual safety if you want to use it but has a nice positive click if you don’t want to. Magazine disconnect but you can remove that if you don’t want it.

If you’re comfortable with the Bodyguard then you’ll be comfortable with the LC9. Same long double action pull, and you clearly don’t have an issue with a safety since the Bodyguard has one. You can use it or not. I prefer the safety on the LC9 to the Bodyguard. Has a tiny shelf so you can easily access it. I’ve never had the safety come on accidentally.
I agree with all of what you posted with one exception.
The Gen 1 LC9 is not double-strike capable. I know because I have had one as my EDC for the last 2+ years. It is in the safe at the moment waiting replacement parts for an extractor that it launched into low earth orbit. But I can say with 100% certainty that double-strike isn't one of its features.
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Old 07-13-2020, 09:58 PM
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I agree with all of what you posted with one exception.
The Gen 1 LC9 is not double-strike capable. I know because I have had one as my EDC for the last 2+ years. It is in the safe at the moment waiting replacement parts for an extractor that it launched into low earth orbit. But I can say with 100% certainty that double-strike isn't one of its features.
Yeah. Washerman corrected me already. I didn’t recall if mine had it or not but I guess it didn’t. Your extractor flew off? Never heard of that. Why didn’t you just send it to Ruger? They fix everything fast with no charge at all. They completely refurbished my friend’s Security Six when he inherited it from his dad. Even re-blued it. Cost him nothing. Not even shipping.

I haven’t shot my LC9S in a while. Maybe I’ll get it out tomorrow. I can put them into almost the same hole at 7 yards with it. Weird how accurate I am with it.
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Old 07-13-2020, 10:10 PM
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Not to be argumentative, but why is double strike capability vital? Or even important? I can't think of a single instance when a primer failed with modern ammo. And if there is a problem with the firing pin or the hammer stroke, another strike likely won't solve the problem. Slap, rack, and bang in any case.
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Old 07-13-2020, 10:21 PM
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Not to be argumentative, but why is double strike capability vital? Or even important? I can't think of a single instance when a primer failed with modern ammo. And if there is a problem with the firing pin or the hammer stroke, another strike likely won't solve the problem. Slap, rack, and bang in any case.
I wouldn’t say it’s vital but it’s not a bad option. In the event of a light strike I doubt any but the most highly trained are going to smoothly transition to tap rack bang under extreme stress. Pulling the trigger again is automatic. While I’ve never had to do it, some have reported light strikes with the Bodyguard .380’s. Round usually goes off again on the second pull.

I’ve had some light strikes on .38 Special I’ve reloaded. They all went off the second time. One thing I do remember with my old LC9 is placing my thumb over the hammer while holstering didn’t prevent the hammer from falling if my finger was on the trigger or something snagged it. Tried it unloaded of course. Another thing I like about hammer fired. The hammer is so flush with the slide the thumb doesn’t block it.
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  #70  
Old 07-13-2020, 11:05 PM
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LC9 and LC380 do not have second strike capability.

I'm puzzled that the Nano is considered too big. The LC9, LC9s and LC380 and the Nano are all about the same size. The Nano just looks blocky, IMHO

BU9 Nano
Ruger(R) LC9s(R) Centerfire Pistol Model 3269
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Old 07-13-2020, 11:53 PM
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Taurus G2 and G3 series are striker fired with second strike, a long, fairly smooth DAO, and a manual safety.
As the G2 and G3 series are literally Glock clones, perplexing that Taurus will provide a manual safety and Glock won't, even though Glock provided the Australian and British militaries with manual safety G17 and G19 third gen's when competing for contracts.
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Old 07-13-2020, 11:56 PM
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Yeah. Washerman corrected me already. I didn’t recall if mine had it or not but I guess it didn’t. Your extractor flew off? Never heard of that. Why didn’t you just send it to Ruger? They fix everything fast with no charge at all. They completely refurbished my friend’s Security Six when he inherited it from his dad. Even re-blued it. Cost him nothing. Not even shipping.

I haven’t shot my LC9S in a while. Maybe I’ll get it out tomorrow. I can put them into almost the same hole at 7 yards with it. Weird how accurate I am with it.
I see that now - didn't see it before I posted though.

I will be sending my LC9 back to the mothership, but first I want to confirm what I think happened.

I believe my LC9 fired while about 3/32" out of battery. The ammo I was using was Speer Lawman 115gr and the case had a separation that starts just above the top edge of the extractor groove and extends about 1/4 of the way around the case and down into the extractor groove. The separation happened at the unsupported area of the feed ramp. The case is bulged right at the feed ramp - you can clearly see the line on the side of the case where the unsupported area of the feed ramp meets the chamber. When the case is inserted into the chamber of the barrel it stops just a little more than 1/16" from seating all the way - and it is the bulged feed ramp area that keeps it from seating.

So, it appears to me that it fired when it was still about 1-16" ro 3/32" out of battery and the case bulged and started to have a head separation at the unsupported area of the feed ramp. This blew the extractor off, along with the piece that retains it and the extractor spring, as well as bending the loaded chamber indicator to where it sticks up all the time - whether there is a round in the chamber or not.

So far I have confirmed that you can hold the slide slightly out of battery and pull the trigger and it will release the hammer. I want to do this with an empty primed case to confirm that the firing pin will hit the primer with enough force to ignite it. If it does, that will confirm that firing out of battery is what caused the damage.

In order to get it to fire the primer I'll probably have to point it straight up into the air and insert a pencil or dowel into the barrel to hold the empty primed case against the breechface - since the extractor isn't there to do it.

But that is what I plan on doing to confirm my suspicions before sending it in to Ruger. I plan to make a video of my experiments as confirmation and evidence to send to Ruger when I contact them by email to notify them of the problem.
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Old 07-14-2020, 12:21 AM
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I see that now - didn't see it before I posted though.

I will be sending my LC9 back to the mothership, but first I want to confirm what I think happened.

I believe my LC9 fired while about 3/32" out of battery. The ammo I was using was Speer Lawman 115gr and the case had a separation that starts just above the top edge of the extractor groove and extends about 1/4 of the way around the case and down into the extractor groove. The separation happened at the unsupported area of the feed ramp. The case is bulged right at the feed ramp - you can clearly see the line on the side of the case where the unsupported area of the feed ramp meets the chamber. When the case is inserted into the chamber of the barrel it stops just a little more than 1/16" from seating all the way - and it is the bulged feed ramp area that keeps it from seating.

So, it appears to me that it fired when it was still about 1-16" ro 3/32" out of battery and the case bulged and started to have a head separation at the unsupported area of the feed ramp. This blew the extractor off, along with the piece that retains it and the extractor spring, as well as bending the loaded chamber indicator to where it sticks up all the time - whether there is a round in the chamber or not.

So far I have confirmed that you can hold the slide slightly out of battery and pull the trigger and it will release the hammer. I want to do this with an empty primed case to confirm that the firing pin will hit the primer with enough force to ignite it. If it does, that will confirm that firing out of battery is what caused the damage.

In order to get it to fire the primer I'll probably have to point it straight up into the air and insert a pencil or dowel into the barrel to hold the empty primed case against the breechface - since the extractor isn't there to do it.

But that is what I plan on doing to confirm my suspicions before sending it in to Ruger. I plan to make a video of my experiments as confirmation and evidence to send to Ruger when I contact them by email to notify them of the problem.
Interesting. I’ll have to check my LC9S tomorrow. See if I can pull the trigger while slightly out of battery.
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Old 07-14-2020, 01:13 AM
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Interesting. I’ll have to check my LC9S tomorrow. See if I can pull the trigger while slightly out of battery.
Cool. Do that and let me know please.
I just played with mine a little. A aiming it straight up with 6" long pencil in the barrel, it will fire and the firing pin will launch the pencil 4' to 5' into the air, even when it is out of battery by as much as 3/16" - well past the point where the takedown pin can be pushed out.
If you retract the slide much farther than that the trigger is just dead - it moves back and forth with no real resistance and doesn't release the sear.
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Old 07-14-2020, 08:18 AM
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There actually have been a couple of true DAO striker-fired pistols manufactured like the CZ100 and Walther P990/P99DAO, but way too big for pocket carry and discontinued AFAIK.

Last edited by Mister X; 07-14-2020 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 07-14-2020, 12:19 PM
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I wouldn’t say it’s vital but it’s not a bad option. In the event of a light strike I doubt any but the most highly trained are going to smoothly transition to tap rack bang under extreme stress. Pulling the trigger again is automatic. While I’ve never had to do it, some have reported light strikes with the Bodyguard .380’s. Round usually goes off again on the second pull.

I’ve had some light strikes on .38 Special I’ve reloaded. They all went off the second time. One thing I do remember with my old LC9 is placing my thumb over the hammer while holstering didn’t prevent the hammer from falling if my finger was on the trigger or something snagged it. Tried it unloaded of course. Another thing I like about hammer fired. The hammer is so flush with the slide the thumb doesn’t block it.
I guess it depends on what you're trained with as to second strike. I'm a firearms instructor for my agency, or was until I retired. Second strike with Glocks wasn't an option, and of the thousands of rounds I saw fired, there were zero failed primers. The tap, rack, boom was the only drill taught. With revolvers, back in the day, pulling the trigger was indeed second nature, but it brought a new round under the hammer.
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Old 07-14-2020, 10:12 PM
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There actually have been a couple of true DAO striker-fired pistols manufactured like the CZ100 and Walther P990/P99DAO, but way too big for pocket carry and discontinued AFAIK.
Doh! How could I forget the CZ100, I nearly bought one.
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Old 07-16-2020, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post
I wouldn’t say it’s vital but it’s not a bad option. In the event of a light strike I doubt any but the most highly trained are going to smoothly transition to tap rack bang under extreme stress. Pulling the trigger again is automatic. While I’ve never had to do it, some have reported light strikes with the Bodyguard .380’s. Round usually goes off again on the second pull.

I’ve had some light strikes on .38 Special I’ve reloaded. They all went off the second time. One thing I do remember with my old LC9 is placing my thumb over the hammer while holstering didn’t prevent the hammer from falling if my finger was on the trigger or something snagged it. Tried it unloaded of course. Another thing I like about hammer fired. The hammer is so flush with the slide the thumb doesn’t block it.
Here's an example of tap, rack, and bang being applied in a real situation under extreme stress. Training pays off.

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Old 07-16-2020, 12:17 PM
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Here's an example of tap, rack, and bang being applied in a real situation under extreme stress. Training pays off.

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Excellent skill to practice.
However, still not as fast as pulling the trigger a second time - if the round goes off on the second try. If not then tap, rack, bang is still an option with only a fraction of a second lost.
The other benefit of second strike is if the round fires the second try you haven't "tossed" one round of your firearm's capacity.
Point being, no matter how well trained you are there are still benefits to second strike.
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Old 07-16-2020, 02:36 PM
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Again not being argumentative, but if the round doesn't fire the first time it's struck, what guarantees it'll fire the second time? Obviously, there's something wrong with the primer, unless there's something wrong with your pistol. Few handguns nowadays have second strike capability and I'm not sure it's a good idea with guns that do and unhelpful with a dead primer. Training takes place of instinct, and the woman above had good training and did the right thing.
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Old 07-16-2020, 02:57 PM
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Also not trying to be argumentative, because you are right, there is no guarantee that a second strike will fire the round. However there are other reasons for FTF other than a "dead" primer - the most common of the ammo-related reasons being a primer not fully seated. The vast majority of the time the first strike will fully seat it and a second strike will fire it.
There can also be mechanical issues with the gun that cause light strikes. In my experience, if a light first strike has already dimpled the primer cup, a second strike will make it fire off the majority of the time.
Presumably a lot of guns aren't second strike capable simply because making them so is a little more complicated - making the trigger capable of fully cocking and releasing the striker/hammer is a little more involved than making the action of racking the slide the mechanism that pre-loads the striker and sets the sear makes for a simpler mechanism.
Just curious, but what do you see as being such a negative about second strike? If you can train to instantly 'tap-rack-bang" for a malfunction, then surely you can train to try a second trigger pull and THEN default to "tap-rack-bang". Seems like adding that one additional trigger pull to the training shouldn't be a big issue.
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Old 07-16-2020, 03:10 PM
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Rounds that fail the first time but fire with the second strike are fairly common with 22LR. But in other calibers I've had them happen a few times.

25ACP: Out of 600 rounds I've had 1 total dud and 3 that needed a second hit. (Aguila and Magtech)

9mm: Out of 2800 rounds I've had 1 total dud. (Win steel case)
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Old 07-16-2020, 04:18 PM
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What I see as a negative is there are so very few pistols that offer a second strike. Also, takes a new level of training. I would think if the second strike doesn't do it, try a 3rd or 4th, which does take time away from slapping and racking.

So it's only a negative in my mind if one overlooks dozens of excellent pistols that don't have it for one that does. Looking for second strike exclusively limits one's choices.

Since almost no (maybe absolutely none) LE agencies have pistols with second strike capabilities, it's worse than useless to teach it with Glocks or S&W pistols. What's the point? They're incapable of second trigger pulls. Same with the 1911. If an agency DOES issue weapons with second strike capabilities, then teach pulling the trigger again, I suppose, but slap, rack, bang is a better solution.

Edited to add this link.
Do You Need Two-strike Capability In Your Pistol?

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Old 07-16-2020, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene L View Post
What I see as a negative is there are so very few pistols that offer a second strike. Also, takes a new level of training. I would think if the second strike doesn't do it, try a 3rd or 4th, which does take time away from slapping and racking.

So it's only a negative in my mind if one overlooks dozens of excellent pistols that don't have it for one that does. Looking for second strike exclusively limits one's choices.

Since almost no (maybe absolutely none) LE agencies have pistols with second strike capabilities, it's worse than useless to teach it with Glocks or S&W pistols. What's the point? They're incapable of second trigger pulls. Same with the 1911. If an agency DOES issue weapons with second strike capabilities, then teach pulling the trigger again, I suppose, but slap, rack, bang is a better solution.

Edited to add this link.
Do You Need Two-strike Capability In Your Pistol?
Most hammer fired weapons offer second strike. All S&W 1-3 gens, other than the DAO, Beretta, Sig, CZ, Ruger, Etc. The fact that striker fired guns outnumber hammer is the reason why it’s not as common anymore.

Bottom line is they’re not a liability. We’ve already determined that a dud primer isn’t a common thing, unless you’re firing hand loaded ammo and the primer wasn’t quite seated So if they’re rare, then second strike is rarely needed. Still is a nice option. They’re also great for dry fire practice.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:21 PM
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Most hammer fired weapons offer second strike. All S&W 1-3 gens, other than the DAO, Beretta, Sig, CZ, Ruger, Etc. The fact that striker fired guns outnumber hammer is the reason why it’s not as common anymore.

Bottom line is they’re not a liability. We’ve already determined that a dud primer isn’t a common thing, unless you’re firing hand loaded ammo and the primer wasn’t quite seated So if they’re rare, then second strike is rarely needed. Still is a nice option. They’re also great for dry fire practice.
Good points.
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Old 07-16-2020, 09:37 PM
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I bought a SCCY CPX-1RD (red dot equipped with ambi safety) recently. If you look at a photo of the gun you will see a fence molded into the grip frame that apparently is designed to prevent the shooters thumb from activating the safety lever during recoil. BEWARE OF THIS FENCE!!! The first time I fired mine at the range the combination of recoil and muzzle rise drove this fence into the side of my thumb and caused a nice gash. I thought maybe I had a weak grip so tried again and OUCH again!!! After 2 more shots with the same results I cleared the gun and looked closely at the fence. It seems the fence has a sharp enough edge to cause the gash in my thumb which I attribute to poor design (the gun, not my thumb) or other defect in its molding. I took it back to my LGS and the guy was nice enough to refund my money which I promptly used to buy the last SIG P365 he had.
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Old 07-17-2020, 12:44 AM
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I bought a SCCY CPX-1RD (red dot equipped with ambi safety) recently. If you look at a photo of the gun you will see a fence molded into the grip frame that apparently is designed to prevent the shooters thumb from activating the safety lever during recoil. BEWARE OF THIS FENCE!!! The first time I fired mine at the range the combination of recoil and muzzle rise drove this fence into the side of my thumb and caused a nice gash. I thought maybe I had a weak grip so tried again and OUCH again!!! After 2 more shots with the same results I cleared the gun and looked closely at the fence. It seems the fence has a sharp enough edge to cause the gash in my thumb which I attribute to poor design (the gun, not my thumb) or other defect in its molding. I took it back to my LGS and the guy was nice enough to refund my money which I promptly used to buy the last SIG P365 he had.

I bought a SCCY CPX2 5 years ago. It’s such *** my conscience won’t let me sell it.


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Old 07-17-2020, 01:18 AM
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I bought a SCCY CPX2 5 years ago. It’s such *** my conscience won’t let me sell it.


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I ran a few mags through one belonging to my wife's buddy and found it surprisingly usable. It's just a square, 10-round revolver with a long DAO trigger pull. It is what it is.
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Old 07-17-2020, 11:44 AM
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I almost forgot. I do have a pistol that meets all but one of the criteria. It's double action only, striker fired, plastic framed, and has repeat strike capability.

Meet the H&K VP70 Z. The first polymer-framed semiauto pistol ever made. It has an 18 + 1 capacity of 9mm.





Only trouble is, it's a mite large for pocket carry!

John
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Old 07-17-2020, 12:56 PM
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I’m not sure I’d be comfortable with any auto in a pocket without a holster. I have carried a J-frame sans holster on occasion(usually in a coat/jacket with nothing else in the pocket), but in addition to the long and heavy trigger pull, the cylinder will also have to rotate adding an additional layer of safety IMO.

I guess you could install an NY trigger in one of the smaller Glocks although it’s not a true DAO and I’d still recommend a holster.
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Old 07-17-2020, 01:25 PM
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Let's not forget that in addition to safely covering the trigger guard, a pocket holster helps keep the gun in a consistent position in the pocket. Nothing like needing a gun in a hurry, sticking your hand in your pocket, and trying to find the grip because it shifted around in there.
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