I am not in the market, but I look at the market every now and then.

Local Gun Shop has none for sale.

The two major online gun outfits I checked are picked clean.

I saw an M&P sell tonight on Gunbroker for $850 without any sights.

At the beginning of the Covid pandemic there was a good supply at not inflated prices.

I think that has changed

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Buy American
Vote Responsibly

I suspect this will be the norm until the presidential election is confirmed.

On the bright side, modern sporting rifles are overrated, extremely noisy, and perpetually public enemy number one to anti-gunners.

Besides, I'm sure that everyone who wants one has at least one by now, so folks ought to consider this encouragement to broaden their horizons by checking out some firearms they don't already own instead of buying yet another duplicate sporting rifle.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

I was in our local Sportsman's Warehouse the other day and they had no shortage of sporting rifles, ie... bolt action hunting guns of all makes.

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Kevin in Oregon

I was in the local gun shop today; not many AR or AK rifles in stock. Same for handguns, except revolvers.

Just my opinion, but I think for all practical purposes, a Ruger Mini-14 is every bit as good as an AR for emergencies. No, the Ruger isn't as accurate as an AR, and there are not as many accessories and gimcracks for it, but if you need to defend home and hearth from a lawless mob when the police are not available, it will do the job just fine.

I agree, a mini-14 is top notch. But I had no problem selling and then replacing an AR recently. They're out there in the right shops. But MSRs are not the be all and end all of rifles, although I admit I like them and use the two is one and one is none philosophy of Clint Smtih.

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Come and take it!!

I bought or built 3 black rifles in the months leading up to the Covid shut down.
A brand new PSA 16" carbine in 5.56 for $350
A lightly used PSA 11" pistol with brace in 5.56 for $340
A new Bear Creek 18" rifle in 7.62 x 39 for $375
But I think I pretty much hit the bottom of the market. Looks to me like the days of sub $400 MSRs are something of the past.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

Walked into my local Bass Pro yesterday and there was not a single long gun behind the 100 foot gun counter. Just twenty sets of empty gun racks. Almost no handgun ammo, maybe 30% of their normal rifle ammo supply. I don't expect things to improve until after the election, if then...

I GOT MINE

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Forum consigliere

I’ve seen no shortage of sporting rifles. The opposite is true and used market is glutted with the low end bolt actions. Levers are not as in demand and autos and pumps are slow too. The only thing that seems to be in short supply is AR & AK type rifles. If wrong people get elected in 2020 the first thing going down the drain will be this type of Sporting rifle.
Probably start by banning new sales. The only thing that will accomplish is a healthy black market in this type of rifle.

I’ve got a few

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Sure you did

the modern sporting rifle has been just like stocks or gold/silver the past few years, an investment opportunity where price varies greatly with the winds of the political environment. The uneducated have no idea what AR means. One of my favorite post on social median was a couple of months ago, where my LGS posted the photo of a little old lady who looks around 80 walking away across the parking lot with her new, just purchased "modern sporting rifle" under her arm. I think this was the only gun this little lady had ever purchased. yep, modern sporting rifles are increasing in value and will continue to rise in the next few months until the end of the year.

Yep, and the Mini 14 has the fringe benefit of being a less threatening looking firearm in the eyes of the general public, (especially if it has a wooden stock) so Lionel Hutz will have to make more of an effort if he wants to paint you as the villain in the aftermath of a shooting in which you mercilessly gunned down the kindly young man who entered your home at 3:00am to inform you that someone had gone and busted the lock on your door or broken your window, then pocketed a few of your belongings on the way to your bedroom for safe-keeping.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Plenty of sporting guns available around here. ARs, AKs and handguns, not so much.

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Some Might Say.

The Mini 14 takes a bad rap for accuracy.

I own three of them, an early 180 series Mini 14, a 184 series Mini 14, and a 187 series Ranch Rifle.

The 180 series shoots 2 MOA five shot groups with M193 with no mods other than a Choate flash hider and a Tech Sights rear sight. The 180 series had a lighter slight and wasn't over gassed like the 181 onward, so they tended to be more accurate.

The 181 and the rest of the pre 58x series Mini 14s had poor accuracy out of the box due to the heavier slide that operated a lot more violently that it needed to due to being over gassed. It was also complicated by Ruger switching from 1-10 twist in the early series to 1-7 twist and then to 1-9 twist. Many shooters get poor accuracy due to a lack of knowledge of the barrel twist and feeding it less than ideal bullet weight ammo.

However, with a barrel stabilizer, a choate muzzle device, a gas port bushing and a recoil buffer, both my 184 and 187 series will shoot 5 shot 1.5 MOA groups with M193.


To put that in perspective, it's the same accuracy I get with my Colt made 20" skinny barrel SP1 and M16A1 upper halves with M193.



I own a number of ARs. My 1-9 twist varmint AR will shoot 1/2 MOA with high quality ammo, as will my 1-8 twist Match AR. I get 1 MOA out of my Ballistic Advantage barreled 9mm ARs, and as noted above my Colt made 20" M16/M16A1 styled ARs will produce consistent 1.5 MOA accuracy

But when it comes to the average off the rack AR-15, 2-3 MOA is common for 16" carbines and 4-5 MOA isn't uncommon in a lower tier M4gery.

In comparison the recent 58x series Minis 14s with their heavier tapered barrels will almost always shoot 2 MOA five shot groups out of the box.

The Mini 14's supposed lack of accuracy is a gross exaggeration. Is it less accurate at range than other rifles, yes, but it isn't bad either.

I remember a point someone made in the comments of a certain video on YouTube regarding the accuracy of Mini 14s being poor in which the poster pointed out that the shooter had another video on the IWI Tavor in which he had comparatively lower accuracy, yet described it as having "acceptable combat accuracy" at the same range. So I can't help but wonder if it's just another example of confirmation biased, in which the shooter goes in with an preexisting opinion or otherwise preconceived notions regarding the firearm in which cannot be shaken by results.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks like this in all walks of life, folks who practically live in their own little world, a warped reality shaped purely on cognition in which practically everything they see conforms to their opinions, philosophy, and ideology, even when it actually goes completely against it.

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Shooting Comfort is bilateral.

Jeff Cooper reviewed a prototype 180 series Mini 14 in 1975. He commented that "It will do everything the M1 Carbine would do, but better; and everything the M16 will do, but better" and added that is it is "a handier, neater, 'more shootable' piece than the M16".

Cooper wasn't a fan of the 5.56x45 cartridge but he felt the Mini 14 was an excellent "ranch gun" that was "light, handy, quick and gentle" and "at defensive ranges - across the yard - it strikes a wicked blow".

He did not however comment on accuracy and that's unfortunate as I suspect he'd have noted it to be a 2 MOA rifle. That's based on my experience with it, as well as pretty much every review I've seen of the 180 series mini 14 stating it's a solid 2 MOA rifle.

Again based on my experience and side to side comparisons, I think the Mini 14 accuracy fell off with the 181 and subsequent series (until they retooled and made some changes with the 580 series) to around 3-5 MOA.

At the time, that was notably less than the Colt SP1, but to be fair the Mini 14 was designed to be a light, handy short range carbine where even a left hand tail 5 MOA example would still be minute of man or even minute of whitetail at 200 yards - and most shot better in the 3 MOA range.

I considered both the Mini 14 and the AR-15 in the early 1980s and I was advised to get the AR-15 as it was "more accurate" and not "much more expensive" than the Mini 14. That was true enough, but the MIni 14 still handled better.

Even back in the day accuracy was greatly improved with a Choate muzzle device as the extra weight dampened the barrel vibrations, and it didn't take people long to figure out it was badly over gassed. However it took about 30 years for barrel stabilizers to come along and significantly improve the accuracy. And about that same time, Ruger came out with the retooled 580 series and not long after that began using a stiffer, heavier tapered barrel.

Over the same period of time, ARs were reverse engineered and began to be produced by a large number of companies at very wide ranges of quality with some of them having accuracy that made even the worst Mini 14 look accurate by comparison.

But it didn't make a difference. People still viewed the Mini 14 as less accurate than the AR-15.

Owning multiple examples of both, I'm am far more likely to found shooting a Mini-14 than I am an AR-15. The accuracy of my Mini 14s are comparable to my non match/non varmint AR-15s, but handle better and are more enjoyable to shoot.

With respect, I didn't say the Mini is inaccurate; I said it isn't as accurate as an AR.

I own both. They're both good rifles. My AR is more accurate than my Mini.

I've only got one Mini- a early 58? NRA 16.1" model....... with a Hogue stock and 1-3x20 Weaver scope it's a handy little rifle out to 100yds. Not sure how "good" as I've never really benched it with a larger scope or pushed it beyond 100yds.

For me it's more about staying low profile......vs an AR (which I have) yet still have 10rds of 5.56 available with 20 round backup mags.


My most shot AR is a older (mid-90s) Bushmaster with an Ace fixed stock, scope and generally a short 20rd mag.

If the issue is self-defense - ostensibly the reason for the current uptick in sales - it would seem the "accuracy" of a given rifle is largely meaningless. If you take a shot at 200 yards and claim you were in imminent danger, you're likely to have some explaining to do.

I don't own an MSR. The only rifle I have at the ready is a 10-22. I'm not concerned about needing more firepower.

How far can you throw a Molotov Cocktail or rock or frozen water bottles...what do you want if facing a mob of a 100,200 a thousand a 5 shot Model 36 or a semi-auto long gun????.

And no I'm not going to go meet and greet them on the patio after dinner!

As to 200yd shots...... folks were walking the streets of "CHOP" carrying ARs .......kind of throws the 21ft rule out the window.

It's becoming a strange strange world we live in these days. Heard on the news this morning that more people have been shot and killed/murdered in Chicago since 2001 than we lost troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It was on the news so it must be true.............................

If it is in fact true....... strange and scary

the 100 foot counter at Cabelas had zero rifles and almost no handguns yesterday. Plenty of long camo shotguns. No handgun ammo

If you think some variants of the Mini-14 are over-gassed, you should have tried the 20" Saiga I used to own. I traded it towards a straight WASR which was clearly MUCH better set up in the gas department.

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Release the Kraken

I think I have enough guns and ammo until the prices return to sane, except for one revolver in Louisiana. A list of what is not in as short of supply as everything else: rimfire firearms and ammo.

In my area of the Midwest there's plenty of ARs on the shelves; a scant few AKs that are usually the cheaper WASR versions.

But ..... there ain't much else!

No disrespect intended here either.

I'm saying I own three Mini 14s, the mostly box stock 180 series is 2 MOA accurate and the accurized 184 and 187 series are 1 1/2 MOA accurate, all with M193 and M193 clone ammo.

I'm also saying I own a number of ARs that I'll put in three groups accuracy wise.

Group 1:

- A 20" bull barrel varmint AR (1-9 twist and half MOA with 52-53 gr match bullets)
- A 20" HBAR service match AR 1-8 twist and half MOA with 69-77 gr match bullets)
- A 16" AR-15 in 9mm (Ballistic Advantage barrel, 1 MOA accurate with 115 gr XTP or 115 gr HAP)
- A 8.3" AR-15 braced pistol in 9mm (Ballistic Advantage barrel, 1 MOA accurate with 115 gr XTP or 115 gr HAP)

Group 2:

- A 20" pencil barrel SP1 (1.5 MOA with MOA with M193
- A 20" M16A1 upper half on an NDS-601 lower (1.5 MOA with M193)

Group 3:

- A 11.5" XM177E2 clone (3 MOA with M193)
- A 16" lightweight carbine (3 MOA with M193)
- A 16" Colt 6430 9mm carbine (3 MOA with 115 gt XTP or 115 gr HAP)
- A 16" M4gery (4 MOA with M193)

I've had a few more over the years including an Oly Arms 20" HBAR that I shot in service rifle competition in the late 1990s, and a Bushmaster Match rifle I shot after and before my current Match rifle. They fell in Group 1.

I also had a 16" bull barrel that fell in Group 2.

And I've had a couple other AR-15 over the years that fell in Group 3 that I've since sold.

My Mini 14s are comparable to the Group 2 AR-15s. Some AR-15 are more accurate, but they all match or varmint tuned rifles or carbines. There are also a lot of AR-15s that are not as accurate as my Mini 14s.

The point here is that you can't make the broad statement that an AR-15 is more accurate than a Mini 14. "AR-15" covers a broad range of configurations and levels of quality.

I won this in a Texas State Rifle Association raffle, six or seven years ago.

Rock River Arms LAR-15.

[IMG][/IMG]

So far, the longest distance I've shot this rifle was fifty yards. It shoots great and has an incredible trigger.

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Dave Brown
SWCA #3279

I agree that you'd need to have to demonstrate an imminent threat existed. On the other hand we are living in some strange times right now, and threats can exist at long range.

I grew up out west and I had one relative shot at by an assailant with a rifle in the 1980s. (There were some racial tensions involved). He kept driving out of the kill zone, but had that not been possible, he'd have stood virtually zero chance with just a pistol.

There are reasons officers carry patrol rifles, and in a rural area one of those reasons is very much self defense. The same can apply to civilians when faced with an assailant with a rifle over open ground with little or no cover and/or a very slow police response time - if you even have cell coverage to call the police.

----

At the moment my preferred truck gun is an AR-15 braced pistol in 9mm with a Burris 332 on top. As a handgun I can legally carry it loaded in my vehicle, along with a bag full of 32 round magazines, I can reliably hit torso size targets with it out to 200 yards and at about 120 dB it won't leave me deaf if I have to use it in close quarters.

Do I expect to engage an assailant at 200 yards? No. But it's nice to have the capability to engage an assailant at ranges beyond where I can accurately and effectively engage a point target with my conceal carry CZ 75 PCR or CZ 2075 RAMI.

I agree. I had a Mini once. Wish I kept it. My extremely rabid anti-gun sister in law came over years ago and saw my safe. Asked to see what I had so I figured I’d make her look stupid. Open it and there’s a few bolt guns. Pump action 12 gauge. Mini 14. AR-15.

She points to the AR and asks why I have a machine gun. No explanation of her error was accepted. I take out the wood Mini and say “how about this?” She says that’s fine. I take a 40 round Mini magazine and slap it in. Say same caliber, capacity, rate of fire, range, etc. she blinks a few times and say “get rid of that one too, then”.

Mini’s don’t look scary and they do the job just fine. If they weren’t so stupid expensive I’d own another one.

I bought a bunch of 80% lowers, assembly kits and various uppers a couple years ago.. I already had an ar15 and a mini 14 I had setup. Big jugs of powder and lots of bullets and primers, plus a 224 mold and a 200 gr 308 mold. Added another 2000 loaded rounds right at the begin of the covid deal I think I am good to go.

Was at the LGS yesterday and, as has been the case for several months, popular ammo was nowhere to be found, (38spl and 357mag being two exceptions). Thinking of some of the more obscure residents of my safe, there was plenty of 303 British, 32 Win Spl, and 30-40 Krag. Would I choose any of those over an AR? Of course not, but any of them would be better than a pocket full of stones.

I stopped listening to my sister in law the day after my wife and I got married......... 9/11/93

As I posted earlier my Mini goes out with an almost flush fit 10rd factory magazine...... very PC looking ........ backed up by 20rd factory magazines.

Probably be a lot more Mini's out there if Bill Ruger had sold more than just 5rd mags to the general public..........................

Or perhaps because Minis are currently going for for $800 - new or used.

I am seeing complete ARs, uppers, 80% lowers and magazines, but no complete lowers or ammo.

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213th FBINA

"currently" yes...... but back in Bill's time the choice was a mini with 5rds or an AR with 20-30........ most folks chose the AR.... at a higher price.

LOL only "The A-Team" had 20rd mags that worked!!!!!!

Aftermarket mags for the mini have never had a good reputation.


That said my philosophy is that a 5rd mag will meet 99% of my shooting needs(though I am fond of the newer 10rd mags)....... for me 20 rounders are for SHTF and 30rd mags are the TEOTWAWKI.

Yes, I remember when minis were about $250 and a Colt AR was double that, if you could find one. I had 2 14s and a 30. I couldn’t hit the broad side of a bus with any of them. Sold them all. Back then I don’t recall many aftermarket magazines, mine were all the factory mags that came with the rifle; I think they were 10 or 20 rounders.

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213th FBINA

Had two Mini’s, won’t be a third, sticking to my scary AR’s because I could care less what anyone thinks of them.

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Sure you did

The beginning of 2020 sure has been good for the firearms industry.

As someone behind the counter here is the guns sales timeline of the last few months as I see it.

As things began to lock down and oil prices dropped handgun sales and the sales of home defense short barrel shotguns took off. Ammo sales and magazine sale skyrocketed. Most of the buyers of firearms tended to be first time buyers. Many of them admitted they were kind of anti gun in the past but thought they might need one now. For a couple of weeks it was like Black Friday sales each and everyday.

After that rush which severely depleted inventory things began to settle down. Sales were still brisk but we weren't slammed from opening to closed.

Then came the riots; business picked up again but the product mix changed a bit. AR, Ak and SKS sales took off as did full size semi auto pistol sales. There is a different feel to this buying.

Maybe it is a generational thing, maybe it is the video games people play but a one type of younger customer sure prefers Eastern Block firearms including old Mosin-Negant bolt rifles but will buy what we have when nothing else is available.

The slightly older buyers seem to be tactical shotgun, AR, M1A, Garand buyers. They are buying full size 9mm handguns at a brisk pace but they are also a little more likely to buy revolvers and 1911s.

Right now if it is tacticool it doesn't stay on the shelf ammo, mags, firearms, etc. I'm just glad I'm an old fashion revolver guy and I'm looking forward to hunting season. I can buy ammo for my big game rifles and revolvers.

I've not seen the I'm buying modern sporting rifles to flip closer or after the election buyers. The customers buying now are buying what they think they might need. This doesn't feel like the sales stimulated by elections and gun control talks.

You can draw your on conclusions on what it all means.

That was my ramble for the day.

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Bill Bates

Bill/Ruger did sell 20s to law enforcement .....but not to the common man.

I thought the 10s were a recent offering.

Carrying a Mini- with a 10 round mag and a 1-3 scope (set on 1X) is kind of like carrying a concealed handgun.......... 2-4rounds ...... bangbangbang... down range ..... SURPRISE!!!!

I've seen the surprise on folks faces at the range.... followed by "What is that"

A modern sporter to me is a bolt action rifle not made from a military surplus gun. But there are lots of "modern" sporting rifles an the local trader website. And Armslist is polluted with semi-auto rifles and handguns.
I like to skim through Armslist for lever action and single shot rifles but since they updated their site I can't narrow my search down and have to look through the tons of newer black plastic junk to find the good stuff.
I don't like the newer Gun broker format either.
John

Was at the Mill in Utica Ohio yesterday afternoon to pick up an adapter for my suppressor. He told me he had several AR's come in yesterday from 2 distributers.

I'm not so sure how much there is a shortage, and how much is credit limit is maxed out at many shops! My guy buys from 8 distributers instead of one or two. Now new Glocks seem to be non existent! But there are a ton of LEO trade-ins! But stores don't seem to be carrying these. Maybe that cash flow/credit issue again. (normally, this is "Gun Store Drought Time" and wonder who is making the purchase decisions?)

He even got in one 5000 sleeve of WLP primers @ $30/1000, but I'm good and a friend is looking for WSP Primers (he's down to his last 8000!)

Ivan

I just bought a Howa Hunte 6.5 Creedmor with a gorgeous walnut stock off the net, brand new for under $500 guaranteed to shoot under 1MOA. I'm waiting on the Vortex Diamondback 4-12X scope to try it out.

I have come to the conclusion that I don't much like the "modern sporting rifle." Am worn out with "all things AR 15, all the time." I view the design in any configuration as one of the most severely overrated rifles ever fielded.

One lives here, an early 1970s Colt SP 1. It's not the first choice for "serious" rifle shooting. Don't like the caliber. Don't like the ergonomics. Don't like the aluminum alloy. Don't like the black. It's far down the personal list of essential rifles. Don't even want to know about current upgraded versions.

Just put me down as a curmudgeon.

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AFAIK, and for a little clarification here because I see some confusion with respect to the term "modern sporting rifle", the term "modern sporting rifle" was coined a little more than a decade ago (and I remember thinking at the time, "A WHAT?"!) by the National Shooting Sports Foundation because the AR style rifle had moved into the mainstream of the shooting world for gun sports including hunting. The 5 round magazine might be controversial amongst shooters discussing the AR or similar guns as weapons but I am fairly certain it is the maximum number of rounds you can have in a rifle in the deer woods. ICBW.

Once the AR-style rifle became popular in competition and in hunting the NSSF realized that the "weapon" had become somewhat of a tool for "play" (dare I say toy?) as well as a very useful self defense tool. So someone clever came up with the MSR moniker.

To digress a little - without getting too political. Americans have used rifles for competition and for hunting that were always and routinely the same rifles (and calibers, too, often enough) in current use by the then military that folks who served came home with or went out of their way to buy for the purpose of putting meat on the table or little holes in distant targets. So-called "weapons of war" became the tools of the hunting and competition world.

"Sporters" were bolt guns that had been designed for the field, or "sporterized" for the field and/or competition. I don't think the term was ever applied to lever action guns but I could be wrong.

But the times changed and the military changed and the Vietnam War changed a lot of things and folks tended, as per usual, to want to rely on the rifles that Uncle Sam trained them on. So the Armalite design of rifle became very popular. So, just as before, the rifle that went to war became the popular choice of American shooters at home. Lose the selector switch and all you have is a semi-automatic rifle that just looks a lot different from a Model 94 Winchester or a 98 Mauser or even an M-1 or an M-14. But it's practical use for putting meat on the table, putting holes in distant targets, AND for defending hearth and home, is not really different from its predecessors.

Anyway, that's what I remember over the passage of time.

And yes, I have two AR-style rifles and an AR-pistol on the way. My favorite rifle is still a Remington Model 788 in. 308 Winchester. It's not quite modern, but it is VERY sporting.



I sold this one but my others are clearly related:

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Come and take it!!

I always enjoy a little humor in life and have though the name of "modern sporting rifle" was a great new name for the AR platform to counteract the uninformed who think AR is assault rifle. And it does help in the great political battle that goes into the court system under the idea of any gun being popular with the citizens and purchased in great numbers when it arrives on the bench in front of judges. I own one modern sporting rifle, just to contribute to the numbers of those who have purchased one. Somehow, this year, I think it is a more important item sitting by all my old style sporting rifles. We all need to see the term "modern sporting rifle" being used more in the main stream as time progresses.

I am fine with the title "Modern Sporting Rifle" for the AR platform. I actually met 1 guy who used a 308 version for deer and he did take a really nice whitetail buck. I am sure there are lots of them being used for coyotes in this part of the country too. But, when I go hunting, from rabbits to elk I take a bolt action. Same applies for those I hunt with. But, there is a lot more to gun sports than just hunting. Lots of interesting looking shooting challenges for the semi auto platforms.

Was in a local Farm and Ranch supply yesterday. Shelves full of ammo of about every caliber, about 10 AR platform guns, a cabinet full of plastic fantastics, and outer semis a small section revolvers. Was picking up some 6.5 Creedmoor ammo to start shooting a Mohawk 600 I just rebarrelled to that caliber and stuck in a Boyds Thumbhole and wanted to start messing with while waiting for brass, dies and selections of bullets arrive. Counter guy said stuff was moving slow. Agreed that this part of Montana wasn't in a gun panic because everyone already had plenty, if anything just normal adding to selection. Bolt guns out selling ARs. Plenty of lever action sales too.

But, all in all the 2nd wasn't about hunting turkey or deer. The second closer to being about "assault" rifles that "sporting rifles" But, sometimes I will sing to the crowd a little bit myself.

This. A lot
I've got an AK and a SKS. If I had to let one go-I'd keep the SKS. Ditto with my AR and my Mini 14. I think the Mini 14 little bitty Garand operating system is better than the AR for my purposes-plus that sucker is L-O-U-D

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Forum consigliere